Vapor Consumption Efficiency

[kuzko]

Have no actual knowledge on the subject. Just trying to get a discussion started and hopefully someone or multiple someone’s have some insight. And apologies if this is already an existing thread, I looked for one.

I’ll start off with what has prompted my curiosity. I have been using a Volcano classic as my DD for 10+ years and I love it. I have various portables but I’m home more than away so Volcano is my go to. I recently acquired a new portable that does something unique that my other vapes don’t do, which is fully extract a full load in one hit. It’s a fun vape and I find myself craving that hit but it ls got me wondering…

I’ve always heard and read that our lungs only absorb so many of the cannabinoids in a vapor hit and that the vapor exhaled is basically wasted. Now this could be completely wrong, I dunno. If that hypothesis is actually incorrect, then this post is essentially pointless though. Anyways, finally, this leads to the crux of my issue. if I load up my Volcano with a pinch, I get two large bags of vapor mixed with air. When I load my new portable with a similar pinch, I get one huge dense vapor hit.

You probably see where I’m going with this. If our lungs can only take in so much, is extracting everything in one hit just a complete waste? Is the Volcano stretching out my cannabinoids by mixing in so much air and delivering them to me in 10+ hits? Is the portable just wasting most of the cannabinoids? What’s going on here? Lemme know your thoughts.

 

[Farid]

I see efficiency not in terms of the thc delivered, but in terms of herb use patterns and most importantly: satisfaction.

The vape that allows you to be satisfied using the smallest amount of weed is the most efficient to me.

After all, the thc delivered is kind of a moot point if you consider tolerance, and what your body is accustomed to. Delivering more cannabinoids just means that you need more cannabinoids to feel satisfied. If your vape is more efficient at delivering cannabinoids, but encourages greater herb consumption (say because it has a bigger bowl) is it really more "efficient" than smoking one hitters? Even if the smoking is technically less efficient than vaping.

I know that's a little bit convoluted, but at the end of the day we're not measuring the thc in our blood, we're going by how we feel.

 

[kuzko]

Great points, but let’s just say that the amount of cannabis is the same in each device. One device is going to extract in one hit, the other is going to get 2 large bags. I guess it’s possible they are having the same effects, it’s hard for me to compare highs when I’m high lol.

 

[Farid]

Even with the same amounts - if one device leaves you more satisfied than the other, it isn't necessarily more efficient at delivering thc. The "full" feelings in the lungs contributes a lot to how satisfied I feel, which is why I prefer denser one hits of vapor. This would be the case even if I was absorbing less thc.

 

[C No Ego]

Great points, but let’s just say that the amount of cannabis is the same in each device. One device is going to extract in one hit, the other is going to get 2 large bags. I guess it’s possible they are having the same effects, it’s hard for me to compare highs when I’m high lol.

a massive vapor hit will only provide so much in terms of absorption in the time of holding it in and then exhaling as you mentioned ... the middle of the vapor in your lungs is not absorbing on the outsides where the tissue is etc..... and your lungs and airways can only absorb but so much at a time and no more will be absorbed ... in that sense ghosting the hit or rebreathing the hit would best suit that type of vape that does it all in one hit, if you have good lung capacity for doing such ... this would allow more oxygen to reactive lung absorption and then absorb more of the vapor in that huge hit ... simply exhale and when you start seeing the vapor pouring out rebreath back in and hold ... you can do that quite a few times on the same hit etc.... all that is to basically say that making the same amount of herb last longer per more smaller hits will provide way more absorption of what is available in there to absorb . takes longer obviously and you too can rebreath smaller hits as well to make the process more absorb able over all ... rebreath and exhale through the nose and that puts the vapor into more cavaties that absorb and distribute the actives too

 

[Thunderbelch]

a massive vapor hit will only provide so much in terms of absorption in the time of holding it in and then exhaling as you mentioned ... the middle of the vapor in your lungs is not absorbing on the outsides where the tissue is etc..... and your lungs and airways can only absorb but so much at a time and no more will be absorbed ... in that sense ghosting the hit or rebreathing the hit would best suit that type of vape that does it all in one hit, if you have good lung capacity for doing such ... this would allow more oxygen to reactive lung absorption and then absorb more of the vapor in that huge hit ... simply exhale and when you start seeing the vapor pouring out rebreath back in and hold ... you can do that quite a few times on the same hit etc.... all that is to basically say that making the same amount of herb last longer per more smaller hits will provide way more absorption of what is available in there to absorb . takes longer obviously and you too can rebreath smaller hits as well to make the process more absorb able over all ... rebreath and exhale through the nose and that puts the vapor into more cavaties that absorb and distribute the actives too

I used to exhale just a little at a time then inhale a bit and so on. But while it probably gets you more bang for buck, the difference seems small and it's just more satisfying to exhale it all in one go.

 

[C No Ego]

I used to exhale just a little at a time then inhale a bit and so on. But while it probably gets you more bang for buck, the difference seems small and it's just more satisfying to exhale it all in one go.

yeah most definitely unless it tastes really good and you want to hang onto that as long as possible

 

[Siebter]

I'm not sure the vapor we see when we exhale does even contain much THC – I think the idea that exhaled vapor is wasted vapor was established by the Magic Flight Launch Box team, I don't remember them being able to back that up, though. I know from nicotine research that the human lung is able to absorb certain substances and molecules rapidly due to its huge surface area (which is equivalent to the size of a tennis court), but I don't know how that applies to THC. I'm pretty sure there's a limit on how much THC we can absorb at once, but the exhale is probably not a good indicator to monitor our actual intake.

One thing that came to mind when I read your first post: new things can alter the high, like a change in the environment you have your session in or a cool new device.

However, from my own subjective experience I would agree that a certain amount works better / is more efficient when being inhaled in a small number of hits as opposed to many hits. Huge difference.

 

[C No Ego]

I'm not sure the vapor we see when we exhale does even contain much THC – I think the idea that exhaled vapor is wasted vapor was established by the Magic Flight Launch Box team, I don't remember them being able to back that up, though. I know from nicotine research that the human lung is able to absorb certain substances and molecules rapidly due to its huge surface area (which is equivalent to the size of a tennis court), but I don't know how that applies to THC. I'm pretty sure there's a limit on how much THC we can absorb at once, but the exhale is probably not a good indicator to monitor our actual intake.

One thing that came to mind when I read your first post: new things can alter the high, like a change in the environment you have your session in or a cool new device.

However, from my own subjective experience I would agree that a certain amount works better / is more efficient when being inhaled in a small number of hits as opposed to many hits. Huge difference.

THC metabolizes through COX/ LOX and is is bronchodilator ... it does not go anywhere or disappear in vapor ... you can see this via all the vape reclaim from the inside of glass pieces etc ... all that latent THC in the vapor accumulates onto the glass... Also the super potent Super RSO that is RSO that is vaporized in a glass dome vaporizer that is closed off and allows the vapor to fully condense on the inner glass that later gets scraped off with a rubber spatula etc... just a few examples to explain it there.
as to lung absorption the first few seconds after you inhale the lung absorbs the most and then needs new air to reactivate the capacity for such hence the re-breath method when vapor is in there to reactivate capacity to absorb new oxygen etc.... I'm trying to make sense of your last sentence , you are in a way describing microdosing I think

 

[Siebter]

@C No Ego – Honestly, no idea what reclaim has to do with all this. What is „latent THC“? I'm also not knowledgeable enough to understand your point about COX / LOX, I suppose most people don't, so it would be cool to explain that further.

That rebreathing method might work for some reason, but seriously: nobody will consume weed like that. Because it's just stupid. :-) From what I know breathing deeper is much more effective than relying on inhale times (I think because more alveoli are present in the deeper lung tissue, not sure though).

And no, I'm not talking about microdosing, I'm talking about any amount.

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – Honestly, no idea what reclaim has to do with all this. What is „latent THC“? I'm also not knowledgeable enough to understand your point about COX / LOX, I suppose most people don't, so it would be cool to explain that further.

That rebreathing method might work for some reason, but seriously: nobody will consume weed like that. Because it's just stupid. :-) From what I know breathing deeper is much more effective than relying on inhale times (I think because more alveoli are present in the deeper lung tissue, not sure though).

And no, I'm not talking about microdosing, I'm talking about any amount.

your post made it seem like THC disappeared somehow... quote " I'm not sure the vapor we see when we exhale contains much THC" unquote
the glass globe examples and all that vapor that condenses completely is full of THC ( latent THC) ... so is exhaled vapor etc...
COX is Cyclooxygenase , LOX is lipoxygenase ... both are a form of oxygenating lipids via enzymatic action ( forming biochemicals from lipids) .

many people consume dry herb vaping via re breathing, ghosting the hit... even people who smoke it do so as well . when introducing new oxygen to lung capacity it opens up the lining ( via new oxygen , as when you breath each breath ) for more absorption capability of the same vapor that would otherwise have been exhaled into the environment etc ... not really hard to understand

 

[Siebter]

@C No Ego – That's a peculiar interpretation of my writing. I never wrote THC would „disappear“, it is obviously absorbed by our lungs. Glass on the other hand does not absorb anything, hence vapor of any kind condensates on its surface. I'm sure you agree that exhaled vapor will not contain the same amount of THC than before being inhaled. The question is: how much THC is left, I'm pretty sure that there is very little left, because our lungs are actually very good at absorbing stuff. Exhaled cigarette smoke for example contains next to no nicotine at all. As I said, I don't know how good it is at absorbing THC exactly, but probably much better than glass. :-)

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – That's a peculiar interpretation of my writing. I never wrote THC would „disappear“, it is obviously absorbed by our lungs. Glass on the other hand does not absorb anything, hence vapor of any kind condensates on its surface. I'm sure you agree that exhaled vapor will not contain the same amount of THC than before being inhaled. The question is: how much THC is left, I'm pretty sure that there is very little left, because our lungs are actually very good at absorbing stuff. Exhaled cigarette smoke for example contains next to no nicotine at all. As I said, I don't know how good it is at absorbing THC exactly, but probably much better than glass. :-)

yeah , vapor condenses on the glass , lungs absorb as much as they can per breath and whatever vapor is on that breath etc... larger hits will still have lots of THC in the exhaled vapor ... re breathing would allow the most absorption from the same hit etc... the first few seconds after breathing in will absorb the most , then after wards carbon monoxide starts to form and the lungs are not taking that in as much so stops absorption until newly acquired oxygen via the next breath is attained to then again absorb A new ....

 

[Siebter]

@C No Ego – I understand that, but it would be interesting to have some vague idea about the actual amount that hasn't been absorbed when we do our regular thing. After all, the key question here is

If our lungs can only take in so much, is extracting everything in one hit just a complete waste?

Rebreathing is apparently a way of maximizing efficiency (sorry for calling it „stupid“, it's just very unpractical in my eyes), but that begs the question whether it's even objectively worth it. You say bigger hit exhales will have „lots“ of THC – how do we know that?

 

[GoldenBud]

Thc, terpenes, these compounds don't like heat. when you're vaping with a vape from the conduction or semi-conduction family, some of the molecules are getting oxidized and the result is not the purest vapor (Volcano Classic is not an efficient vape IMHO....)

I think convection vapes are way more efficient. i vape 0.02-0.03gr with my Mi3 one-hitter (wooden WPA, 5-10 sec' of preheating) and it hard hits and taste well.

Why Dynavap is so efficient then, if it's conduction? very small chamber is giving you the chance to give uniform heating all over the cap's sides. it takes me 18 sec' to fully extract 0.02gr, heating at Mid with Ti tip, so in these 18 sec' the thc/terpenes are getting oxidized a bit

 

[Farid]

Not sure I agree with oxidation necessarily resulting in "lower efficiency" if we're measuring efficiency by the quantity of bud used to feel satisfied.

A lot of people prefer the stonier effects from more CBN content. They may feel more satisfied from that oxidized bowl. Your explanation of why people still find the dynavap efficient despite the conduction seems to make sense, and I partially agree, but to pose a counter example: what about a hit off of a half vaped MFLB bowl? That still leaves many people satisfied, and is certainly "efficient" in many ways despite containing lots of oxidized compounds.

If we're talking about THC delivered then you're probanly right, but THC is just one part of the whole, and as I posted earlier, I think satisfaction is a more useful metric to go by.

 

[Farid]

Delete

 

[vapirtoo]

My Launch Box has such a short vapor path that the hits can be very harsh but efficient.
Conduction gives an almost joint type high, and the LB does it with very little herb
and almost no clouds when you exhale. Waste not, want not.
Sometimes I feel that the little LB hits harder, with less herb, than my VapBong, but
the VB is just more pleasing and smoother to use and throws clouds all over the place!

 

[invertedisdead]

Thc, terpenes, these compounds don't like heat. when you're vaping with a vape from the conduction or semi-conduction family, some of the molecules are getting oxidized and the result is not the purest vapor (Volcano Classic is not an efficient vape IMHO....)

D9-THC is the degradation byproduct of oxidizing THCA. You have to oxidize it to get stoned.

 

[GoldenBud]

D9-THC is the degradation byproduct of oxidizing THCA. You have to oxidize it to get stoned.

With the VapCap the heat is absorbed within the 18 sec' before the air is passing through
with Mi/HI etc' the hot air is passing on herb which wasn't exposed to heat

You want the oxidizing to be fast, you waste some oils in the 18 sec' of heating the VC

There's an air left in the cap when you close it.... i think that's how it gets oxidized

that's why I like the Ti tip tho... less time for the herb to get oxidized

 

[MinnBobber]

Lung absorption rate:

Extensive research has been done on lung absorption rates for OXYGEN, its primary mission.
Lungs absorb only about 1/3 of the oxygen inhaled. You exhale about 2/3 of the originally inhaled oxygen.

How much of the inhaled cannabis goodies are absorbed????
Wish there was better research on it.

I would tend to speculate that lungs do not absorb more than this 1/3 figure.???
There is a lot of lung surface area BUT also a lot of open volume and limited time to absorb.

 

[invertedisdead]

With the VapCap the heat is absorbed within the 18 sec' before the air is passing through
with Mi/HI etc' the hot air is passing on herb which wasn't exposed to heat

You want the oxidizing to be fast, you waste some oils in the 18 sec' of heating the VC

There's an air left in the cap when you close it.... i think that's how it gets oxidized

There’s always going to be air present for oxidation in any of these setups unless you’re using an inert gas to backfill the dead space. Which isn’t really
possible anyways since they all have an air inlet. There was that weird helium thing that’s been posted a few times on here.

Also with over 400 chemicals in cannabis it’s possible that some people prefer oxidized or degraded compounds besides THC. Like how some people like to decarb/infuse their edibles for 24 hours and others go for 24 minutes.
We’re always told about how smoking destroys all these compounds but if you read the test results when vapor and smoking has been analyzed the combusted sample actually had a wider cannabinoid profile from new compounds being generated from the chemical reaction of combustion.

 

[GoldenBud]

I would tend to speculate that lungs do not absorb more than this 1/3 figure.???

Interesting question because with gases the Temperature is very important here too, higher temp means better solubility and also higher chances to stay in the surface of the lungs.. i think.. the lugs are kept in like 25c or so, the vapor is like 150c+ or dunno, not only the heat gets to exchange - also the material...

There’s always going to be air present for oxidation in any of these setups

i mean... when you 'surprise' the herb with hot air, without preheating the chamber, you get to taste your strain for real. also works with the VapCap on the most upper part of the cap, see how is it useful for all purposes?
when i heat it for 4-5 seconds the taste is great too

 

[Siebter]

Lung absorption rate:

Extensive research has been done on lung absorption rates for OXYGEN, its primary mission.
Lungs absorb only about 1/3 of the oxygen inhaled. You exhale about 2/3 of the originally inhaled oxygen.

How much of the inhaled cannabis goodies are absorbed????
Wish there was better research on it.

I would tend to speculate that lungs do not absorb more than this 1/3 figure.???
There is a lot of lung surface area BUT also a lot of open volume and limited time to absorb.

There are a lot of factors that have to be considered and apparently the human lung absorbs different substances and molecules at a very different rate, so I wouldn't apply a substances absorption rate to any another substance. Here's an example for nicotine (which by the way reminds us that absorption of substances does not only happen in our lungs):

Of the available nicotine in mainstream smoke (25 per cent of total nicotine content of a cigarette), up to 90 per cent of the smoke drawn into the mouth is absorbed by inhalation, and much less is absorbed through the mouth (< 25 per cent) (Armitage et al., 1975).

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/nicotine

I still have a hard time researching absorption rates for THC, also wish there were more studies about it.

 

[C No Ego]

@C No Ego – I understand that, but it would be interesting to have some vague idea about the actual amount that hasn't been absorbed when we do our regular thing. After all, the key question here is


Rebreathing is apparently a way of maximizing efficiency (sorry for calling it „stupid“, it's just very unpractical in my eyes), but that begs the question whether it's even objectively worth it. You say bigger hit exhales will have „lots“ of THC – how do we know that?

I've actually seen where people exhale their vapor hit into a bag and pass that to another person and they get plenty of effects from inhaling that without touching a vape ... second hand vapor ... there is also carbon monoxide in there and whatever other waste by product in exhaled air etc... the people were close who done that , a couple ... I doubt just random people would be up to excepting second hand vapor LOL
if a person were to be able to hold the vapor in long enough to fully condense in the airways and lungs ( impossible) then that would be 100% extraction ... there is still so much actives in huge vapor hits that fill the room with one big exhale ....
meant to edit post and replied to my own post LOL, edit - people too have breathed the vapor exhale into volcano bags and let that condensate ... over time you have RSO stuck to the bag inside ... and then reclaim it for use etc....