Vapman

[Cheebsy]

Zinc fumes? Are you serious? Could you please verify this?

René

I'm not being accusatory, mearly a concerned user. My fear is that with torch use and damaged pan you could possibly be heating a small part up beyond the point of off gassing, most likely to occur on the outside of the pan. I understand that it's not easy to combust and that does put my mind at rest somewhat that the surface temp of the inside of the pan remains low enough to not be an issue, but I would love to see a thermal video of the inside of the pan under torch heating conditions for total peace of mind. I doubt such a video exists though.

The purity of the copper is a very good point too @Radwin Bodnic thanks for the reminder.

 

[T9R]

Probably, the mustard is out of this forum.

And me also - for hazardous suggestions.

That would be a shame. I don't think anyone wants that.

(You leaving the forum that is, just to be clear. I don't have any loyalty towards the mustard.)

 

[0796]

That would be a shame. I don't think anyone wants that.

(You leaving the forum that is, just to be clear. I don't have any loyalty towards the mustard.)

I’m already aware, that I have inclination to push things little bit too far. So, when somebody or something get hurt, the responsibility must be taken somehow to prevent next accident

 

[Chicken No Name]

@0796
When I tried mustard (Coleman's English of course!) as per your guide it caused NO damage to the pan. It did clean but not as effective as bicarb so I reverted to using just that. So I don't think your suggestions are to blame here.

 

[vapman]

@Cheebsy:
A manufacturer is obligated to ensure that its product poses no danger to the user under any circumstances. If a user questions the safety of a product, the burden of proof that the product is unsafe lies with the user or critic themselves! It's not possible the other way around. In this sense, your comment is an accusation without proof!

You yourself admit that you are not certain of your statement, and there probably isn't a video with a thermal imaging camera.

Now I can explain to you quite simply and banally that your assumption is completely wrong and incorrect. It doesn't require a thermal imaging camera or any other technical device for that.

The boiling point of zinc is 906°C, but the gold on the Vapman pan flakes off at 560°C, and the herbs evaporate at a temperature between 160°C and 230°C. Therefore, before the zinc would evaporate, the herbs would most certainly burn first, then the gold would flake off, then the Vapman would be destroyed, and only then would the zinc evaporate.
As you know, the pan is made of copper, and after silver, copper is the best heat conductor of all. The thermal conductivity of copper is approximately 40 (4000%!) times better than that of stainless steel. This explains why, with stainless steel vaporizers, the heating point is extremely important.
With copper, however, it doesn't matter where you heat; the heat spreads faster than you could measure it.
I know why Vapman works and tastes so good, it has a lot to do with the copper. And as I've mentioned many times, it's also impossible to inhale copper oxide because copper oxide doesn't even exist in gaseous form. To reach a toxic level, copper oxide must be ingested orally, at least 0.04 grams daily! 0.04 grams per day is a lot of copper oxide! This fear of copper and zinc is completely unfounded and based on ignorance. It's funny that people aren't afraid of the copper in things like car brake pads, which produce a fair amount of particulate matter and can be measured everywhere in the air. Again: safety was my top priority 25 years ago when I started building vaporizers, and I'm still here explaining it to customers. I probably need to build vaporizers for another 250 years for everyone to understand.

Have a nice day!

René

 

[kokolokokolokon]

I’m already aware, that I have inclination to push things little bit too far. So, when somebody or something get hurt, the responsibility must be taken somehow to prevent next accident

Don´t worry. I did an trial and error. And the result was an error I have another vapman and a vapman click in the case i dont want to use that pan (which i used on the station yesterday i will replace it and try to keep it clean, but the next month maybe)

 

[0796]

@0796
When I tried mustard (Coleman's English of course!) as per your guide it caused NO damage to the pan. It did clean but not as effective as bicarb so I reverted to using just that. So I don't think your suggestions are to blame here.

Okay, okay, I will not play virgin)))

Probably, I just need to put some note in my profile - quote of my dean from university about me:
“To treat with limited trust.”

Don´t worry. I did an trial and error. And the result was an error I have another vapman and a vapman click in the case i dont want to use that pan (which i used on the station yesterday i will replace it and try to keep it clean, but the next month maybe)

It’s really impressive, that you change pan without any worry!

 

[barrington]

Almost ready to pull the trigger on a click. It’ll be my first vapman but I can’t decide between the walnut or amaranth copperbrown and was hoping you fine folk could help with a few questions I have.

One thing that’s making me hesitate about copperbrown is that in the official product photos, the base and middle pieces look to be different colours. Is that variation typical and if so, how pronounced is it person?

I’m also really keen on a wooden mouthpiece but there doesn’t seem to be a copperbrown or amaranth mp available. So was wondering, out of the walnut or padauk mp’s, which one would be the nicest match? Wouldn’t want it to look too out place.

Finally, do the walnut and copperbrown have a remarkably different feel in hand?

Thanks. This seems like a rad community and I’m excited to join the vapman clan.

 

[0796]

Again: safety was my top priority 25 years ago when I started building vaporizers, and I'm still here explaining it to customers. I probably need to build vaporizers for another 250 years

René, it’s just simple paranoia, that every vaporisers user catch ones in a while. Especially, when not every vaporiser manufacturer share with you the agenda, that the manufacturer must stand behind safety of every detail in their product. Sometimes it’s “using of my product is safer, than smoking”)))

Btw, thanks for your detailed explanation about materials.
If I remember it right, your speciality in pre-vapman period in watch industry was materials and chemistry?

Tx. Misha.

 

[T9R]

I literally spilled water on my screen and it freaked out and randomly posted. Please delete!

Edit: And that wasn't a cover-up story for a drunken rant, I promise!

 

[Kozzmozz]

@Cheebsy:
A manufacturer is obligated to ensure that its product poses no danger to the user under any circumstances. If a user questions the safety of a product, the burden of proof that the product is unsafe lies with the user or critic themselves! It's not possible the other way around. In this sense, your comment is an accusation without proof!

You yourself admit that you are not certain of your statement, and there probably isn't a video with a thermal imaging camera.

Now I can explain to you quite simply and banally that your assumption is completely wrong and incorrect. It doesn't require a thermal imaging camera or any other technical device for that.

The boiling point of zinc is 906°C, but the gold on the Vapman pan flakes off at 560°C, and the herbs evaporate at a temperature between 160°C and 230°C. Therefore, before the zinc would evaporate, the herbs would most certainly burn first, then the gold would flake off, then the Vapman would be destroyed, and only then would the zinc evaporate.
As you know, the pan is made of copper, and after silver, copper is the best heat conductor of all. The thermal conductivity of copper is approximately 40 (4000%!) times better than that of stainless steel. This explains why, with stainless steel vaporizers, the heating point is extremely important.
With copper, however, it doesn't matter where you heat; the heat spreads faster than you could measure it.
I know why Vapman works and tastes so good, it has a lot to do with the copper. And as I've mentioned many times, it's also impossible to inhale copper oxide because copper oxide doesn't even exist in gaseous form. To reach a toxic level, copper oxide must be ingested orally, at least 0.04 grams daily! 0.04 grams per day is a lot of copper oxide! This fear of copper and zinc is completely unfounded and based on ignorance. It's funny that people aren't afraid of the copper in things like car brake pads, which produce a fair amount of particulate matter and can be measured everywhere in the air. Again: safety was my top priority 25 years ago when I started building vaporizers, and I'm still here explaining it to customers. I probably need to build vaporizers for another 250 years for everyone to understand.

Have a nice day!

René

Rene we love you and your work. A huge silent majority know what a great product it is and doesn’t doubt the quality. Thanks for taking the time for, another, writup of the known !

Cheers. All the best.

 

[coolbreeze]

Almost ready to pull the trigger on a click. It’ll be my first vapman but I can’t decide between the walnut or amaranth copperbrown and was hoping you fine folk could help with a few questions I have.

One thing that’s making me hesitate about copperbrown is that in the official product photos, the base and middle pieces look to be different colours. Is that variation typical and if so, how pronounced is it person?

I’m also really keen on a wooden mouthpiece but there doesn’t seem to be a copperbrown or amaranth mp available. So was wondering, out of the walnut or padauk mp’s, which one would be the nicest match? Wouldn’t want it to look too out place.

Finally, do the walnut and copperbrown have a remarkably different feel in hand?

Thanks. This seems like a rad community and I’m excited to join the vapman clan.

Here ya go. I have a purple one but I like the copper brown better for the variation. And, the copper brown changes color when you roll/tilt it. I have a special walnut v2 and they both seem similar in hand, weight and texture-wise.

I think the Padouk MP looks much better with it, at least in real life.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

@Cheebsy:
A manufacturer is obligated to ensure that its product poses no danger to the user under any circumstances. If a user questions the safety of a product, the burden of proof that the product is unsafe lies with the user or critic themselves! It's not possible the other way around. In this sense, your comment is an accusation without proof!

You yourself admit that you are not certain of your statement, and there probably isn't a video with a thermal imaging camera.

Now I can explain to you quite simply and banally that your assumption is completely wrong and incorrect. It doesn't require a thermal imaging camera or any other technical device for that.

The boiling point of zinc is 906°C, but the gold on the Vapman pan flakes off at 560°C, and the herbs evaporate at a temperature between 160°C and 230°C. Therefore, before the zinc would evaporate, the herbs would most certainly burn first, then the gold would flake off, then the Vapman would be destroyed, and only then would the zinc evaporate.
As you know, the pan is made of copper, and after silver, copper is the best heat conductor of all. The thermal conductivity of copper is approximately 40 (4000%!) times better than that of stainless steel. This explains why, with stainless steel vaporizers, the heating point is extremely important.
With copper, however, it doesn't matter where you heat; the heat spreads faster than you could measure it.
I know why Vapman works and tastes so good, it has a lot to do with the copper. And as I've mentioned many times, it's also impossible to inhale copper oxide because copper oxide doesn't even exist in gaseous form. To reach a toxic level, copper oxide must be ingested orally, at least 0.04 grams daily! 0.04 grams per day is a lot of copper oxide! This fear of copper and zinc is completely unfounded and based on ignorance. It's funny that people aren't afraid of the copper in things like car brake pads, which produce a fair amount of particulate matter and can be measured everywhere in the air. Again: safety was my top priority 25 years ago when I started building vaporizers, and I'm still here explaining it to customers. I probably need to build vaporizers for another 250 years for everyone to understand.

Have a nice day!

René

Thanks for the clarification René.

What's your opinion on a pan with a damaged plating ? Would you think possible that the adherence between the layers being compromised, zinc dust could be released ?

It's probably not a matter of time spent explaining to users but rather a matter of knowledge and education that not everyone is able to access... we value your wisdom and experience.

Thank you.

 

[Cheebsy]

@vapman René

Firstly, I apologise that you've regarded my concerns as accusations. That was not my intention in any way. I desired I discussion with my peers about the possibility of issues. I am extreme when it comes to my concerns about zinc particularly. I fully admit I am an outlier. I also fully admit my fear could be somewhat irrational which is why I raised the point. You have my respect as a talented and knowledgeable artisan who makes some wonderful devices.

The boiling point of zinc is 906°C, but the gold on the Vapman pan flakes off at 560°C, and the herbs evaporate at a temperature between 160°C and 230°C. Therefore, before the zinc would evaporate, the herbs would most certainly burn first, then the gold would flake off, then the Vapman would be destroyed, and only then would the zinc evaporate.
As you know, the pan is made of copper, and after silver, copper is the best heat conductor of all. The thermal conductivity of copper is approximately 40 (4000%!) times better than that of stainless steel. This explains why, with stainless steel vaporizers, the heating point is extremely important.
With copper, however, it doesn't matter where you heat; the heat spreads faster than you could measure it.

Thanks for this interesting information. I didn't realise there wouldn't be a hot spot at the point of heating with copper.

And as I've mentioned many times, it's also impossible to inhale copper oxide because copper oxide doesn't even exist in gaseous form

I'm not concerned with copper oxide, you're using pure copper, it's copper alloys that worry me, not applicable here thankfully.

I believe I stated at the start that I believe a pan in good condition wouldn't be a concern, I worry that a damaged pan could be an issue, do you have any thoughts about if some zinc was exposed? I guess the lack of hot spots negates that fear too since it should never get hot enough?

Edit: sorry for repeating the damaged pan question, I was typing my reply and missed yours @Radwin Bodnic

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

I'd like to add :

I hope these concerns don't affect you by much René. In the end we're just a bunch of stoners on the internet...

 

[Flotsam]

stoners on the internet...

LOL where have i heard that before? I think the stoners were on the Internet first .................. just sayin

 

[Dr. G]

@Cheebsy:
A manufacturer is obligated to ensure that its product poses no danger to the user under any circumstances. If a user questions the safety of a product, the burden of proof that the product is unsafe lies with the user or critic themselves! It's not possible the other way around. In this sense, your comment is an accusation without proof!

You yourself admit that you are not certain of your statement, and there probably isn't a video with a thermal imaging camera.

Now I can explain to you quite simply and banally that your assumption is completely wrong and incorrect. It doesn't require a thermal imaging camera or any other technical device for that.

The boiling point of zinc is 906°C, but the gold on the Vapman pan flakes off at 560°C, and the herbs evaporate at a temperature between 160°C and 230°C. Therefore, before the zinc would evaporate, the herbs would most certainly burn first, then the gold would flake off, then the Vapman would be destroyed, and only then would the zinc evaporate.
As you know, the pan is made of copper, and after silver, copper is the best heat conductor of all. The thermal conductivity of copper is approximately 40 (4000%!) times better than that of stainless steel. This explains why, with stainless steel vaporizers, the heating point is extremely important.
With copper, however, it doesn't matter where you heat; the heat spreads faster than you could measure it.
I know why Vapman works and tastes so good, it has a lot to do with the copper. And as I've mentioned many times, it's also impossible to inhale copper oxide because copper oxide doesn't even exist in gaseous form. To reach a toxic level, copper oxide must be ingested orally, at least 0.04 grams daily! 0.04 grams per day is a lot of copper oxide! This fear of copper and zinc is completely unfounded and based on ignorance. It's funny that people aren't afraid of the copper in things like car brake pads, which produce a fair amount of particulate matter and can be measured everywhere in the air. Again: safety was my top priority 25 years ago when I started building vaporizers, and I'm still here explaining it to customers. I probably need to build vaporizers for another 250 years for everyone to understand.

Have a nice day!

René

Master Rene...I can listen to you all day. What an interesting artist you are. You have my respect. What amazing information that should be in a book. The history that you have made, created and continue to do...should be in a book.

Thank you for all you do. The Vapman plays a significant role in my healing. So...I am grateful.

G

eMuseo Vapman

 

[barrington]

Here ya go. I have a purple one but I like the copper brown better for the variation. And, the copper brown changes color when you roll/tilt it. I have a special walnut v2 and they both seem similar in hand, weight and texture-wise.

I think the Padouk MP looks much better with it, at least in real life.

Thanks mate. Massive help, appreciate it. Your picture and info sealed the deal. Just ordered the copper brown and a walnut mouthpiece.

Excited as!

 

[coolbreeze]

Thanks mate. Massive help, appreciate it. Your picture and info sealed the deal. Just ordered the copper brown and a walnut mouthpiece.

Excited as!

Nice, man, hope you love it!

 

[vapman]

Thank you guys for the nice feedbacks!

The question if vapman is safe when the coating is defect I would answer this way:

If metals would emit molecules when heated to vaporizing or on the stove cooking temperatures, vaporizing or cooking wouldn't be safe!
But this is not the case, metals like steel, copper, zinc, brass, titan...etc. don't emit any molecules at these temperatures. If it would be the case,
any parts made of these metals would lose weight over time when heated up. You may heat up a vapman pan with a defect coating a million times and you won't notice any molecules missing, meaning that nothing is leaving the pan and therefore is nothing entering your body and harming it in any way.
I hope I did explain it in an understandable way and if not, I'm here!

Take care,
René

 

[T9R]

Thank you guys for the nice feedbacks!

The question if vapman is safe when the coating is defect I would answer this way:

If metals would emit molecules when heated to vaporizing or on the stove cooking temperatures, vaporizing or cooking wouldn't be safe!
But this is not the case, metals like steel, copper, zinc, brass, titan...etc. don't emit any molecules at these temperatures. If it would be the case,
any parts made of these metals would lose weight over time when heated up. You may heat up a vapman pan with a defect coating a million times and you won't notice any molecules missing, meaning that nothing is leaving the pan and therefore is nothing entering your body and harming it in any way.
I hope I did explain it in an understandable way and if not, I'm here!

Take care,
René

Hey René,

Always a privilege when you stop by. Your explanations are very much appreciated!

I hope we don't ruin your retirement peace of mind though. But I'm sure you can agree that having a bit of hypochondria surrounding things that you inhale isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially not when it results in a special visit like this.

Just out of curiosity, would using a Vapman with an exposed pan be a potential concern if you were to eat the herb?

Since the Vapman "cooks" the herb, it feels similar to using copper cookware. And I often hear that you should always use lined cookware, kind of like the gold plating, to avoid acids leaching copper into the food.

If it's not a concern, is it because a) you don't agree with the general guidelines, or b) that it's not the same cooking process taking place?

Thank you.

 

[kokolokokolokon]

@vapman So, could I say that my mistake was actually a success and that I have gotten an easier to clean vapman?

 

[vapman]

Hey René,

Always a privilege when you stop by. Your explanations are very much appreciated!

I hope we don't ruin your retirement peace of mind though. But I'm sure you can agree that having a bit of hypochondria surrounding things that you inhale isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially not when it results in a special visit like this.

Just out of curiosity, would using a Vapman with an exposed pan be a potential concern if you were to eat the herb?

Since the Vapman "cooks" the herb, it feels similar to using copper cookware. And I often hear that you should always use lined cookware, kind of like the gold plating, to avoid acids leaching copper into the food.

So if it's not a concern, is it because a) you don't agree with the general guidelines, or b) that it's not the same cooking process taking place?

Thank you.

I'm agreeing with the general guideline that cook ware made of copper should be coated. It isn't because copper oxides are difusing into the food but because the oxide building on the surface could be scraped off and digested together with the food. Copper is not inherently toxic to living organisms; on the contrary, copper is a vital element for our health! Every person needs at least 1-1.5 mg of copper per day to stay healthy. And, as mentioned, copper oxide is not a fraction as toxic as most people across the country believe. Don't forget that entire vineyards are sprayed with copper oxide from helicopters to combat fungi! Obtaining oxide poisoning with the Vapman would be a major effort! You'd have to scrape at least 0.04 grams of oxide from the pan and eat it every day! That's simply not possible; 0.04 grams of oxide is a considerable amount. With large cooking pans, it's a different story; you could accumulate 0.04 grams. To answer your question: Yes, you can eat herbs from an uncoated Vapman pan without any concerns; the amount of oxide produced is simply negligible, and you'd have to intentionally scrape this oxide off. When I searched the internet extensively for cases of oxide poisoning a long time ago, I didn't find a single case! The balance between real danger and corresponding fear isn't really right for most people. You can all search the internet for copper oxide poisoning and you'll find almost nothing, if anything! The only case I found at the time was that of a sheep that accidentally came across a bucket of copper oxide spray and drank from it. The sheep, however, did not die and survived the incident. Lucky sheep.

Thank you,
René

 

[T9R]

I'm agreeing with the general guideline that cook ware made of copper should be coated. It isn't because copper oxides are difusing into the food but because the oxide building on the surface could be scraped off and digested together with the food. Copper is not inherently toxic to living organisms; on the contrary, copper is a vital element for our health! Every person needs at least 1-1.5 mg of copper per day to stay healthy. And, as mentioned, copper oxide is not a fraction as toxic as most people across the country believe. Don't forget that entire vineyards are sprayed with copper oxide from helicopters to combat fungi! Obtaining oxide poisoning with the Vapman would be a major effort! You'd have to scrape at least 0.04 grams of oxide from the pan and eat it every day! That's simply not possible; 0.04 grams of oxide is a considerable amount. With large cooking pans, it's a different story; you could accumulate 0.04 grams. To answer your question: Yes, you can eat herbs from an uncoated Vapman pan without any concerns; the amount of oxide produced is simply negligible, and you'd have to intentionally scrape this oxide off. When I searched the internet extensively for cases of oxide poisoning a long time ago, I didn't find a single case! The balance between real danger and corresponding fear isn't really right for most people. You can all search the internet for copper oxide poisoning and you'll find almost nothing, if anything! The only case I found at the time was that of a sheep that accidentally came across a bucket of copper oxide spray and drank from it. The sheep, however, did not die and survived the incident. Lucky sheep.

Thank you,
René

Thank you so much for taking the time! That certainly answered my question, and I'm sure others will find the information valuable as well.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

Roses are red...