Underdog Log Vapes

[dorkus_molorkus]

@underdog- cheers for the fast response. If I may intrude once more, if i go with the 1st one, after 12v, the next setting is 13.8v.

Would that be too much juice? if I was careful?

Besides, this is all speculation based on if and only if i have a similar problem to OTA did with his unit.
(I like my ABV to be very dark as well)

 

[underdog]

No intrusion at all..

That is a pretty valid concern as 13.8v is a lot of extra power.. I have run them that high for a couple minutes at a time to get a 'turbo boost' and got away with it fine. That being said it is enough heat at that power level to damage the piece if you were to leave it there for too long. So I think you could probably get away with it but caution would be necessary for sure.

Before upping your voltage I would suggest doing some in depth experimentation with your screen position and draw speed to see if you can get where you want without the voltage bump. Running it through water can also help get you that darker ABV because of the associated constriction and whatnot.

 

[Adobewan]

@dorkus
Sorry I'm late, but I wanted to chime in as a fellow Solo owner. I was seriously stunned at the dense, voluminous clouds. It's easy to use, versatile, beautiful on your desk, ready to go all day after a short warm up, and Dave's customer service. You've read the many accounts of his "beyond the call of duty" support on the forum, I posted one within the last week or so. You've entered a family, and Dave takes care of his family.
My UD has recently replaced my beloved Extreme Q Tower as my daily go to for flowers.
Best of luck with it!

edit: To clarify, in my second sentence, I was talking about my Underdog.
Sorry, I shud relly reed sum of my posts be4 hiting submit.

 

[dorkus_molorkus]

@underdog- no worries, will do, i will make sure I explore all possibilities before I do anything. I am a bit of a research nut, so I am just planning for contingencies just in case. I am sure the PSU that comes with it with be more than adequate, I'm just a plan B sort of guy.

@adobewan- I am sooooo excited to be adding a UD to the family pack. The clouds I have seen in the vids are nothing short of stunning. Throw in the excited chimes regarding the efficiency of the unit & I am like WTF?
How can this be? well I cant wait to finds out.

OMG-After seeing the massive tube abysmal milked the jeebus out of in his vid, now I have a hankering for some new glass. Maybe later, my wife will kill me.

I havent told her about the new doggie yet, she is still coming to terms with the other new doggie I brought home 10 days ago. A 20mth old purebred male rottweiler as a giveaway. He is bit of a handful, but is coming along nicely.

Anyhoo, this seems like a nice thread with heaps of cool peeps who want to get the best out of their vapes & their hobby. The manufacturer stands behind his product & is friendly , approachable & by all accounts that I can see loves what he does & cares for his customers.

Seems pretty damn awesome I reckon. I look forward to hanging about & bring on the fog!

 

[OhTheAgony]

Dorkus, I wouldn't go with a switching PSU but look onwards for a non switching one. The difference for me was significantly. If you go to a local electronics store I'm sure they can help you. You could also go with the one a fellow country member posted here if you feel comfortable modding a tattoo PSU.

edit: I think Dave can even walk you through the modding process if needed, or did I get that wrong Dave? (I think I remember that's what you emailed me when we were discussing those PSUs a while back, but I may have my emails mixed up in my head)

And another edit: Dave, I accidentally found my multimeter! Voltage coming off the 220V PSU that came with the UD is fluctuating between 11,2 and 11,4 volts, resistance measured at the UD power plug is 22,2 ohm. It was a pain in the ass to measure the resistance though, so if that value is to far off let me know and I'll check again with the plug of my dead car adapter (I just tried manipulating the connector pins of my multimeter into the UD socket this time). I also checked what comes out of the inverter that I used with the car adapter and it went up to 13,9V, could I perhaps have killed the car adapter with that or would the adapter have just corrected that voltage to 12V?

ps: I also measured a 2,2ohm resistance in the extension chord for what it's worth.

 

[underdog]

@ dorkus - I totally agree with what OTA says, if possible a tattoo supply would be a better option vs a compact switchmode supply, plus its awfully nice to have infinitely variable power instead of a handful of presets.. I can definitely help out if help is needed making cords or talking about modding things.

@ OTA - thanks for the multimeter readings, the power coming out of the EuroPlug is a full volt lower than it should be which is huge in terms of temps, the resistance of the UD itself is a bit high (they are ideally 19-21 ohm) but not so much as to be a huge problem, the power coming out of the inverter is a bit high but again not off-the-charts high and should be within spec for the cable/adapter. The extension cord is also about right for Chinese cables these days of that type.

Given all those numbers I would definitely say that your problems would see to have been due to lack of power keeping you from getting put full operating temp, poor little UD is only running on a couple cylinders.

@ OTA (again) - hey I forgot to mention, have you checked the fuse in the car adapter to make sure it hasn't blown? You can unscrew the knurled tip of the adapter (car side) to get at the fuse, might be a simple fix.

 

[OhTheAgony]

Gotcha dude. I have another PSU (switching, unfortunately) from an external HDD that's rated for 12V/2A and I measure a 12,2V coming off that one icw the same wall socket. I already tried it earlier when I just received my little bullet I think, without satisfying results, but I feel like doing some more testing so I just hooked it up to that one again.

But even with my 13,9V inverter I had to heat my UD under the blankets or stuck between the couch pillows to get it hot enough to get the ABV past a green color, that's a little weird isn't it? Does room temperature affect the UD's operating temperature a lot?

edit: hey cool man! I was gonna ask you about a fuse on the ca, but I forgot I guess. It is broken indeed. I don't have one that fits I think, but I can pick one up soon enough. Thanks! So glad i didn't cut up the chord on that one to measure the resistance, lol

 

[underdog]

Room temps will affect the running temp to an extent but not usually anywhere near the level you are experiencing. Unfortunately switching supplies regularly do exactly what you are seeing which is to run an UD at a fraction of it's needed power. I guess switching supplies are great for digital devices and stuff but not the kind of resistive load a log vape has, at least according to the EEs I talked to a while back.

So I'm sure there's still more going on to cause your issues just trying to piece together the little puzzle parts so as to make some sense out of things.

I've got another UD that is doing exactly the same thing yours is doing, this customer is in Slovenia. Both yours and his tested out great here and ran at full temp for days and days here before shipping out so I don't know what to think at this point.

Guess maybe I should grab my tools and multimeter and grab a plane for the EU.. nothing like onsite research.

 

[djonkoman]

@ohtheagony: have you checked for broken wires(kabelbreuk)?

 

[OhTheAgony]

Haha, you're welcome to come over man, could be fun! Do bring some warm clothes though, and your helmet. I got plenty of bikes if you feel like riding

Does the Slovenian user have a similar size UD to mine, and has he/she tried the car adapter too? Perhaps it does have something to do with the frequency like you said in your email, but if it is our electricity network then Abysmal and FLskwat should have the same problems as well shouldn't they? Or do they like to keep their ABV light? (feel free to chime in if either of you reads this guys)

Do you know what the slightly higher resistance on mine translates to btw? I was once schooled in this stuff but it's been so long and I'm not sure. I think it means it needs a little more power to reach the same temps as one with a lesser resistance, doesn't it? I doubt that one ohm could have a lot of effect though, for all I know it may just be a slight difference in our multimeters.

Yeah Djonko, it's nothing like that. It just doesn't get quite hot enough without the help of some insulators (couch pillows or blankets), but it will stay at the same temp no problem.

 

[underdog]

I'd love to take a trip over there but I suppose I'd best stay here and keep working in the shop.. don't want any UD-wanting crowds to form up with pitchforks and torches if I delay building more pieces.

The Slovenian user has more of a full size piece, no car adapter that I know of but has tried it with the included power supply and a couple of different ones too but is still not getting hot enough. Maybe your guys customs is tweaking them lol. Seriously though, kinda makes me want to cry just a bit.. very sad UD here.

Higher resistance means less heat, one ohm could equate to 20(F) difference (or more) so can definitely make things not work right. So you could probably imagine if you loose a bit of temp there because of the increased resistance and then lose some more because of the low output voltage it quickly adds up to a loss of a lot of power. Even a cheap multimeter shouldn't be off by that much so I doubt that's the problem but who knows for sure right?

Ok dudes I have to get to the shop for a bit.. be back later..

 

[OhTheAgony]

Ok, next vacation then. I'll find you some local wood so it'll make the trip look legitimate

Well, in that case the readout does confirm the operating temperature, so lets not doubt the tools atm.

What makes up for this resistant? Is it purely the resistant of the ceramic heater itself? I don't think there are much more electronics in the UD are there? Would there be a way to slightly lower the resistance when the Dog would go in to surgery, perhaps by replacing a part or thicken a wire? Just so you know, I would feel comfortable opening mine up under your instructions. I have plenty of experience soldering electronics and I have the tools at hand, if I haven't misplaced anything else that is

I do feel for you man, and for myself and the Slovenian user too of course. I do hope this doesn't lead to no more Dogs coming to Europa eventually

I can say that it didn't like look our customs guys had opened the box itself, so we can rule those guys out for now

 

[zymos]

Higher resistance means less heat,

With all due respect, I think that is backwards...

 

[underdog]

Higher resistance means less heat,

With all due respect, I think that is backwards...

I know it seems backwards but it really is the case. When the heating element is the only resistance in the circuit the lower it's resistance the more current flows through it, more current flow = more heat. So counter-intuitively in this particular case Less (resistance) = More (current/heat).

You can use Ohms Law and run various numbers though and see this in the given power output of those numbers.

For full background for those who want it wiki has a good article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating

PS> @ zymos - you still enjoying the UD dude?

 

[zymos]

But in Joules formula, when you increase the resistance you increase the heat, right?
Q is proportional to current squared times resistance. Does that mean Q is actually negatively proportional?
Well, whatever, you obviously know what you're doing! My dog is doing great-it just WORKS! I tell everyone how good UD vapes are.

 

[underdog]

But in Joules formula, when you increase the resistance you increase the heat, right?
Q is proportional to current squared times resistance. Does that mean Q is actually negatively proportional?
Well, whatever, you obviously know what you're doing! My dog is doing great-it just WORKS! I tell everyone how good UD vapes are.

I think I might have overcomplicated things with the wiki link haha.. we're basically only worried about the simplest aspects of Joule's Law, specifically his First Law. That being said I suppose we might just simplify things by sticking with Ohm's Law since they are basically the same for our purposes here and P (power in watts) can be considered equal to Q (a joule, which = 1 watt second). So simplify and using Ohms law we can see that as resistance goes down (assuming voltage stays the same) current goes up and therefor power also rises.

I really like this online Ohm/Joule's Law calculator, it lets you input 2 values and computes the rest for you. You can plug in 12v on there and try different values in the Resistance box and see what happens to Power (ie, Q). Pretty neat stuff and also like I said kind of counter-intuitive, I remember way back when in school one professor always used this as the basis for a trick question.. got the new students almost every time lol.

Glad to hear you're still digging the piece!

Alright, back to the shop for me..

 

[scottio19]

Abysmal, have you tried the packing method extensively? It really slows down the airflow, and when combined with a waterpipe it'll give you your best shot at super dark abv.

To anyone in the US worrying about the set temp, I too regretted having no control over the temperature. However, I learned that with screen placement, packing techniques, and draw speed, I can get my abv anywhere from a green/light brown to a dark black chocolate. Once you get the color you desire, you can consistently get it every time because of the set voltage.

 

[hazy]

Hey Dave, I spoke to my EE friend and he seems to think that whoever told you that switching power supplies are no good has fed you a crock, maybe to cover up a defective batch? Or maybe they just didn't know what they were talking about? Switchmode power supplies have a reputation of being able to drive difficult loads, and the resistive load of the UD is about as easy as you can get.

I think the difference between the results with unregulated vs switchmode power supplies is what I mentioned earlier: the unregulated power supply is pushing more volts than the switchmode one. I've got a PD which I measured at 21 Ohms. I've got a switchmode supply that puts out about 11.8V (which is within spec for a 12V supply), and that is not enough to get the temperature where I want it. I measured the unregulated supply while it was hooked up to the vape and I was getting about 14V. So I've actually been running this PD at 14V for years without knowing...

 

[underdog]

@ hazy - interesting, thanks for the input. I don't have the depth of electronics knowledge to argue one way or the other, that's just what I was told might be the problem. If I remember what I was told correctly it isn't that they weren't any good, just that they were often only delivering 70-80% of the rated voltage to the load and that this was possibly caused by the switching circuitry not working as it was supposed to for my particular load. I'd be happy to send your friend one of the power supplies in question if he wanted to investigate.

Anyways again I don't know that's a bit past my skill level but I do know that to date I've had about an 85% failure rate with the switching supplies, 2-3 brands from 2 different vendors all with the same intermittent warm-hot-warm-hot-warm-warm-dead pattern of failure.. I'm sure the b-day vape victims customers share my painful memories. Since changing back to linear supplies I've had 0 failures.

Not sure what's going on with your power supply and PD but 14v is pretty brutally high for long term use with the PD resistor and will run it at nearly 600, crazy hot! Then again if it's still working for you then I guess it's not necessarily bad huh?

Lots of technical discussion on the forum today.. good stuff!

 

[darkrom]

600 24/7....? You need to check the inside of that thing some day. The flavor or effects never changed at that temp? That is pretty interesting.

 

[Ghosthunter987]

When will the new pups be posted?

 

[hazy]

600 24/7....? You need to check the inside of that thing some day. The flavor or effects never changed at that temp? That is pretty interesting.

It's hot but I don't think it's that hot. ABV is very dark brown, occasionally almost black, but I've never combusted. The PD has developed its "famous" rattle, but not too bad. I can see a little bit down the inside of the bore hole and there's no evidence of charring whatsoever. Taste is as good as always.

The point I was trying to make was that there are probably a lot of people out there thinking they are running at 12V, but actually it's much higher due to the unregulated nature of the power supplies.

 

[underdog]

600 24/7....? You need to check the inside of that thing some day. The flavor or effects never changed at that temp? That is pretty interesting.

It's hot but I don't think it's that hot. ABV is very dark brown, occasionally almost black, but I've never combusted. The PD has developed its "famous" rattle, but not too bad. I can see a little bit down the inside of the bore hole and there's no evidence of charring whatsoever. Taste is as good as always.

The point I was trying to make was that there are probably a lot of people out there thinking they are running at 12V, but actually it's much higher due to the unregulated nature of the power supplies.

Totally understand your point and agree.. that's one reason I'm always asking people if they know what their actual line voltage is because as you point out unregulated power supplies can output considerably different voltage than what's listed on the label depending on the line levels.

I'd like to find a new brand/model of switcher that works well for me or at least a regulated linear supply but haven't had much luck so far, well at least not at a reasonable price that is.

So hazy are you an engineer (cause you kind of sound like one) or just a tech savvy person? You definitely sound like you've got a pretty good grip on this stuff...

 

[hazy]

No I'm not an engineer, I'm terrible at maths! My background is in computer science, but I do tinker around with electronic circuits, etc. I'm in the process of putting together a power supply to use with log vapes. I'll post it in the forum once I'm satisfied with it.

 

[underdog]

No I'm not an engineer, I'm terrible at maths! My background is in computer science, but I do tinker around with electronic circuits, etc.

Nice, I spent most of my working career in computer science myself..

Interesting in seeing the power supply when you get it done!