Underdog Log Vapes

[Vapemania]

Hey Vapemeister sounds like you're getting most of the info you need but I figured I'd chime in just to make sure. The cored mentioned in the quoted text above was an alternate design that ended up being incorporated into the current design.. so the only core out now or in the foreseeable future is the modern 24/7 3/8" one that has been mentioned. This core will get up to speed in a Twig in 15-20 minutes and a full size piece somewhere between there and 30-40 minutes depending on size and wood type.

@ CaptainDDL - happy you're enjoying the Mahogany piece!

@ Everyone else - thanks for keeping up the good work and guarding the house while I'm gone.. it's appreciated.

Very interesting.

I was wondering, you seem to have 23 finned steel washers around a steel sheath as part of the heating core.
I think the PD has 20 washers and 12 finned washers.
What made you think of having the whole sheath covered in finned washers?

Your version' has fewer washers.
But its also on an integrated stand.
Why is it that shape?

Also, you missed out on that 'ceramic cover' number.
Now RockZap are laughing all the way to the bank!

Finally, is there a solid version of the heating core?

 

[Gonzo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_profilepage&v=sdiYjFqTSDA

Love me some Subaru. Last two cars have been Subies. Love me some Subie like I love me some UD.

 

[SirElton]

Hey Vapemeister sounds like you're getting most of the info you need but I figured I'd chime in just to make sure. The cored mentioned in the quoted text above was an alternate design that ended up being incorporated into the current design.. so the only core out now or in the foreseeable future is the modern 24/7 3/8" one that has been mentioned. This core will get up to speed in a Twig in 15-20 minutes and a full size piece somewhere between there and 30-40 minutes depending on size and wood type.

@ CaptainDDL - happy you're enjoying the Mahogany piece!

@ Everyone else - thanks for keeping up the good work and guarding the house while I'm gone.. it's appreciated.

Very interesting.

I was wondering, you seem to have 23 finned steel washers around a steel sheath as part of the heating core.
I think the PD has 20 washers and 12 finned washers.
What made you think of having the whole sheath covered in finned washers?

Your version' has fewer washers.
But its also on an integrated stand.
Why is it that shape?

Also, you missed out on that 'ceramic cover' number.
Now RockZap are laughing all the way to the bank!

Finally, is there a solid version of the heating core?

Alot of these questions can be answered by reading the thread, something I've already suggested. And the bold bit is unnecessary. Dave didn't "miss out" on anything; he has a different design than Rick's log, and is open to evolution as well. His new 24/7 3/8" core is an example of that. I can assure you Dave and Underdog are doing just fine. There's no 'competition' between them and there are many, like myself, who are happy UD and RZ patrons.

 

[underdog]

Very interesting.

I was wondering, you seem to have 23 finned steel washers around a steel sheath as part of the heating core.
I think the PD has 20 washers and 12 finned washers.
What made you think of having the whole sheath covered in finned washers?

Your version' has fewer washers.
But its also on an integrated stand.
Why is it that shape?

Also, you missed out on that 'ceramic cover' number.
Now RockZap are laughing all the way to the bank!

Finally, is there a solid version of the heating core?

Good observations there Vapemeister. The revised core has 20-30 finned washers around a steel tube depending on final length. I arrived at this design after considering how best to get the airflow to pick up the most heat in the quickest time. The answer for UD was to force it to go through all the fins instead of over the top of them like in the PD design. In that design the air will just want to pass over the round washers and not drop down into the finned areas, not the case on the UD and so we get more performance out of a smaller core.

The revised core is for all intents and purposes a solid core. It goes together piece by piece and is then all welded into one single assembly, best of both worlds this way.

Not sure what you mean by the integrated stand part? And the part about the ceramic cover, and RockZap laughing all the way to the bank? I'm kinda lost by both those parts.. ?

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Very interesting.

I was wondering, you seem to have 23 finned steel washers around a steel sheath as part of the heating core.
I think the PD has 20 washers and 12 finned washers.
What made you think of having the whole sheath covered in finned washers?

Your version' has fewer washers.
But its also on an integrated stand.
Why is it that shape?

Also, you missed out on that 'ceramic cover' number.
Now RockZap are laughing all the way to the bank!

Finally, is there a solid version of the heating core?

Just to mention that the Eterra did the ceramic isolation first on the moxie.. And then somehow it happened to Zaps too..

 

[Gonzo]

There are also those like me who have owned both and prefer the UD much more than the CRZ.

 

[Vapemania]

Good observations there Vapemeister. The revised core has 20-30 finned washers around a steel tube depending on final length. I arrived at this design after considering how best to get the airflow to pick up the most heat in the quickest time. The answer for UD was to force it to go through all the fins instead of over the top of them like in the PD design. In that design the air will just want to pass over the round washers and not drop down into the finned areas, not the case on the UD and so we get more performance out of a smaller core.

So by making all the washers finned, you increased the surface area of the core.
This meant the metal core will heat up quicker.
Is that so?

The mass of the heating core is reduced.
So it would heat up more quickly.
But, if it was to retain as much heat as the PD, then more electricity will be needed to keep the heating core at optimum level.
Is that correct?

The revised core is for all intents and purposes a solid core. It goes together piece by piece and is then all welded into one single assembly, best of both worlds this way.

Yes.
Even if the core body was moulded metal, I can't see how that would make any real difference in the heating core's warming up time.

Not sure what you mean by the integrated stand part?

The heating core is sitting on what I'd call the 'base'.
It's the o-shaped thing with the flat bottom.
I didn't think the PD had the same base.

Does the base shape have an affect on the heating core?
I was wondering.

 

[underdog]

So by making all the washers finned, you increased the surface area of the core.
This meant the metal core will heat up quicker.
Is that so?

Yep that sounds just about right.. maximizing the heated area the air travels though.

The mass of the heating core is reduced.
So it would heat up more quickly.
But, if it was to retain as much heat as the PD, then more electricity will be needed to keep the heating core at optimum level.
Is that correct?

Yes, the core heats up quicker with a reduced mass. The heat retention for our purposes is unchanged and doesn't require more electricity. I know in a lab setting we would see a loss of heat retention but in the real-world use of the UD it's not noticeable as they are very much over-engineered to begin with.

The heating core is sitting on what I'd call the 'base'.
It's the o-shaped thing with the flat bottom.
I didn't think the PD had the same base.

Does the base shape have an affect on the heating core?
I was wondering.

Ok I think I understand what you're asking now, but still not entirely 100% sure. Do you have a picture of what you're talking about specifically? Or can you point me to where you're seeing it so I can verify?

mod note: Edited to fix quotes.

 

[GO!!bot]

Good observations there Vapemeister. The revised core has 20-30 finned washers around a steel tube depending on final length. I arrived at this design after considering how best to get the airflow to pick up the most heat in the quickest time. The answer for UD was to force it to go through all the fins instead of over the top of them like in the PD design. In that design the air will just want to pass over the round washers and not drop down into the finned areas, not the case on the UD and so we get more performance out of a smaller core.

So by making all the washers finned, you increased the surface area of the core.
This meant the metal core will heat up quicker.
Is that so?

The mass of the heating core is reduced.
So it would heat up more quickly.
But, if it was to retain as much heat as the PD, then more electricity will be needed to keep the heating core at optimum level.
Is that correct?

The revised core is for all intents and purposes a solid core. It goes together piece by piece and is then all welded into one single assembly, best of both worlds this way.

Yes.
Even if the core body was moulded metal, I can't see how that would make any real difference in the heating core's warming up time.

Not sure what you mean by the integrated stand part?

The heating core is sitting on what I'd call the 'base'.
It's the o-shaped thing with the flat bottom.
I didn't think the PD had the same base.

Does the base shape have an affect on the heating core?
I was wondering.

lol are you designing your own vape?

what a specific set of ?'s

 

[Vapemania]

Yes, the core heats up quicker with a reduced mass. The heat retention for our purposes is unchanged and doesn't require more electricity. I know in a lab setting we would see a loss of heat retention but in the real-world use of the UD it's not noticeable as they are very much over-engineered to begin with.

In what ways would you say the log unit is over-engineered?

Do you mean an optimum size has been found for the metal to heat at a high temp (close to reaching 413F, if possible)?
Or that further design changes would show little realistic improvement?

Ok I think I understand what you're asking now, but still not entirely 100% sure. Do you have a picture of what you're talking about specifically? Or can you point me to where you're seeing it so I can verify?

On page 2 of this thread: http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=6164&p=2.

On the first photo, the heating core is standing on a base.
I didn't think the PD had such a base?

 

[underdog]

Yes, the core heats up quicker with a reduced mass. The heat retention for our purposes is unchanged and doesn't require more electricity. I know in a lab setting we would see a loss of heat retention but in the real-world use of the UD it's not noticeable as they are very much over-engineered to begin with.

In what ways would you say the log unit is over-engineered?

Do you mean an optimum size has been found for the metal to heat at a high temp (close to reaching 413F, if possible)?
Or that further design changes would show little realistic improvement?

Ok I think I understand what you're asking now, but still not entirely 100% sure. Do you have a picture of what you're talking about specifically? Or can you point me to where you're seeing it so I can verify?

On page 2 of this thread: http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=6164&p=2.

On the first photo, the heating core is standing on a base.
I didn't think the PD had such a base?

Ah, ok thanks for the clarification on both points.. that helps at bit.

As far as efficiency and over-engineering are concerned I simply mean that the UD has much more heating power than actually needed and similarly the heat generated and retained by the core as so much more than needed that we only end up using a fraction of it. For a good example of how little mass is actually necessary you can look at Alan's new HI design which uses a very small thermal mass, and also at one of the prototypes I posted a couple months back. The size of the current core is more of a result of being optimized for ease of manufacturing rather than for performance gains. So the revised core has achieved a good balance of performance and mass and while improvement is possible I'm sure it's at a point of diminishing returns and so isn't really something I'm focusing on much at this point at UD headquarters.

The 'base' you're referring to (thanks for the pic links btw) is simply the bottom washer which once fitted to the outer steel sleeve assist in securing the core in place in addition to closing the core so the airflow is limited to the steel core and not the wooden body, etc. The PD design (and some other logs) have an open core that allows wood in the air-path to be exposed to superheated air.. which runs the possibility of introducing debris into the vapor. Sealing means that this isn't an issue with the UD, the air goes where we want it and nowhere else.

 

[Vapemania]

lol are you designing your own vape?

what a specific set of ?'s

Lol! That is some pretty nerdy questioning!

But I suddenly and inexplicably find myself intrigued by how a log vape works.
I know, I should get out more...

To me, I think the primary challenge for a vape is to reach 413F quickly, and then reach 428F slowly.
This will ensure all the THC is vaped thoroughly.
Remote controls, digital displays, coloured glass etc are unnecessary, in that context.

So the heating system is key.
It tends to be around heating up a small piece of ceramic to produce the heat.

So this would mean finding the right quality and size ceramic which will reach 413F to 428F, intermittently.

And then the challenge seems to be maintaining that temp range consistently over time.
This would be a case of using metal with good insulation.
And the best insulators seem to be double-walled flasks, where air is the insulator.
The flask itself may then be placed inside a wooden container, like log vapes.

But the only problem with flasks is that although they are 5 times more thermally resistant, they're more expensive than using conventional insulation.

Edit: Apologies to others.
I of course mean a temp range of 300F to 413F to vaporise most of the bio-active material (Wiki).

 

[underdog]

To me, I think the primary challenge for a vape is to reach 413F quickly, and then reach 428F slowly.
This will ensure all the THC is vaped thoroughly.
Remote controls, digital displays, coloured glass etc are unnecessary, in that context.

So the heating system is key.
It tends to be around heating up a small piece of ceramic to produce the heat.

So this would mean finding the right quality and size ceramic which will reach 413F to 428F, intermittently.

And then the challenge seems to be maintaining that temp range consistently over time.
This would be a case of using metal with good insulation.
And the best insulators seem to be double-walled flasks, where air is the insulator.
The flask itself may then be placed inside a wooden container, like log vapes.

But the only problem with flasks is that although they are 5 times more thermally resistant, they're more expensive than using conventional insulation.

I think you've summed it up pretty well there dude and that's exactly what I try to accomplish with UD pieces. I've sized the core to be a good compromise between warm-up time and heat retention and to do it's job without the (to me) distractions of lights, switches, screens, dials etc. I much prefer the 'plug it in', 'wait a bit' and 'have fun' method of use... and similarly thinking, rather than using separate insulation I chose to design my core with an internal air-gap to lower the outside temps which it does admirably.. in this regard it is very much like a insulated flask design.

 

[Vapemania]

Sealing means that this isn't an issue with the UD, the air goes where we want it and nowhere else.

Thanks for taking the time to post this info.

Have you tested the UD to see what temps it actually reaches?

If I remember, the UD has temperature variability?
If so, that is a definite advantage.
If it's accurate, then the user can successfully reach the temps which vape all the herb!

Will you be making UDs with exotic woods?

For the great design heating core, I should imagine the price for the UD ($260 cheapest) is worth it.
But, and this will make you roll your eyes, it is still more expensive than the CRZ, Herbalaire and DBV.

 

[GO!!bot]

lol are you designing your own vape?

what a specific set of ?'s

Lol! That is some pretty nerdy questioning!

But I suddenly and inexplicably find myself intrigued by how a log vape works.
I know, I should get out more...

To me, I think the primary challenge for a vape is to reach 413F quickly, and then reach 428F slowly.
This will ensure all the THC is vaped thoroughly.
Remote controls, digital displays, coloured glass etc are unnecessary, in that context.

So the heating system is key.
It tends to be around heating up a small piece of ceramic to produce the heat.

So this would mean finding the right quality and size ceramic which will reach 413F to 428F, intermittently.

And then the challenge seems to be maintaining that temp range consistently over time.
This would be a case of using metal with good insulation.
And the best insulators seem to be double-walled flasks, where air is the insulator.
The flask itself may then be placed inside a wooden container, like log vapes.

But the only problem with flasks is that although they are 5 times more thermally resistant, they're more expensive than using conventional insulation.

YES!! I'm starting to find that vaping at lower temps (i'd guess around 370 or so) does not really satisfy me as much as I'd like

I go through a lot of herb chasing a high that never come on :/

 

[Gonzo]

Dave's pups can be adopted for a lot less than that ($150+). In fact, lost dogs are some of the cheapest log vapes around with all the performance of the regular pieces.

 

[SD_haze]

Sealing means that this isn't an issue with the UD, the air goes where we want it and nowhere else.

Thanks for taking the time to post this info.

Have you tested the UD to see what temps it actually reaches?

If I remember, the UD has temperature variability?
If so, that is a definite advantage.
If it's accurate, then the user can successfully reach the temps which vape all the herb!

Will you be making UDs with exotic woods?

For the great design heating core, I should imagine the price for the UD ($260 cheapest) is worth it.
But, and this will make you roll your eyes, it is still more expensive than the CRZ, Herbalaire and DBV.

You can alter all log vapes temp by adding a can cozy to it, but Alan's HI is the logvape that has an actual variable design included.

The UD Twigs (not on the website) are the same price as the rockzap and the HI (all under $200). These are actually a newer and improved design so you aren't getting a cheaper product either.

 

[Vapemania]

Dave's pups can be adopted for a lot less than that ($150+). In fact, lost dogs are some of the cheapest log vapes around with all the performance of the regular pieces.

That is a very good price, indeed.

 

[underdog]

Sealing means that this isn't an issue with the UD, the air goes where we want it and nowhere else.

Thanks for taking the time to post this info.

Have you tested the UD to see what temps it actually reaches?

If I remember, the UD has temperature variability?
If so, that is a definite advantage.
If it's accurate, then the user can successfully reach the temps which vape all the herb!

Will you be making UDs with exotic woods?

For the great design heating core, I should imagine the price for the UD ($260 cheapest) is worth it.
But, and this will make you roll your eyes, it is still more expensive than the CRZ, Herbalaire and DBV.

I have a shelf of lab temp measuring equipment and used it extensively during the design phase of the various UD revisions. I used to include temp info with the UDs and actually included a detailed heat curve/graph with custom pieces.. no longer anymore though.

For a large variety of reasons (some mentioned here) I decided it wasn't practical to list actual temps anymore for any of the UDs. Differences in line voltage level, power supply efficiency, ambient room temperature and surface the pieces are put on can affect the temp delivered to the material. There are many other things like wood density, shape & size of the piece, weld placement inside each core that can and will affect temps too. There are also variables that are specific to each individual piece and/or user of those pieces which will determine temps. You and I could sit down at the same vape each with our own stem and get a temp delivered to our meds +/- up to 30-40 degrees based solely on how fast and long we inhaled.

Lastly it should be kept in mind that the heat generated inside the core isn't by any means the same as the temp that is delivered to the medication being used. For example the core might need to be running at 400deg internally to deliver an air temp of 375deg to the meds, slide the screen up or down a bit in the stem and that number changes. Draw faster or deeper and that number changes. I think you get the idea.

So in the real world it's best to not specify a temp number or range that outside the lab will be very to verify or depend on. The proof is as they say 'in the pudding' ie, whether or not the UD works.. and I think the majority of the feedback here and other places say 'it does'.

The UD is a variable temperature vape that is easy to adjust with stem screen placement, water usage and draw technique. It is also possible to use with variable power supplies for a greater range of temperatures. It is also compatible with DC dimmer switches to vary the temp downward.

Many new accessories and add-ons will be added to the website after I get back from my trip.. including some of the power accessories. Working hard here to ensure UD is still here and providing you all new pack members 20 years from now!

 

[Vapemania]

You can alter all log vapes temp by adding a can cozy to it, but Alan's HI is the logvape that has an actual variable design included.

The UD Twigs (not on the website) are the same price as the rockzap and the HI (all under $200). These are actually a newer and improved design so you aren't getting a cheaper product either.

Good points. Thanks SD.

Will look out for those twigs on the UD website.

 

[underdog]

You can alter all log vapes temp by adding a can cozy to it, but Alan's HI is the logvape that has an actual variable design included.

The UD Twigs (not on the website) are the same price as the rockzap and the HI (all under $200). These are actually a newer and improved design so you aren't getting a cheaper product either.

Good points. Thanks SD.

Will look out for those twigs on the UD website.

There will be a good deal of new pieces, accessories and other goodies added to the website after the 15th.. as usual FC members will get first notice and dibs.

Also, just to further clarify, ALL pieces being sold and shipped now are using the new 3/8" 24/7 core.. even old pieces from the website are retrofitted with the new core before being shipped. If there is ever an exception to this rule (like a piece that can't be retrofitted for example) it will be very clearly stated before hand and will be, like I said, an exception to the rule.

 

[Stu]

Hey, Dave. Could you retrofit a Bday dog with the new core? If so, what would it set me back?

 

[underdog]

Hey, Dave. Could you retrofit a Bday dog with the new core? If so, what would it set me back?

Hey Stu - I'm working on a procedure to do just that but haven't worked out all the kinks yet so I can't really tell you a price either.. but I'd say you pay shipping to/from and it'd probably run you $20-$30 for the retrofit. It'll be one of the things on my 'to do' list once I get back from this trip..

 

[Mathair Naduir]

To UD owners, can any of you attest to the vapor production/vapor quality of your units?

-How does it size up compared to a DBV/LSV/SSV rigged up to a water pipe?
-How do you like dry hits?
-How do you like water filtered hits?

Thanks

 

[JoeFinny]

To UD owners, can any of you attest to the vapor production/vapor quality of your units?

-How does it size up compared to a DBV/LSV/SSV rigged up to a water pipe?
-How do you like dry hits?
-How do you like water filtered hits?

Thanks

Yes I can absolutely back this vape as money well spent in terms of how good these wooden pieces really medicate you and stretch your supply out (as would any good vape).

-Personally I've used both DBV and SSV and speaking in terms of how much vapor you get for each hit I definitely will always side with UD especially when its hooked up to a water pipe. The hits IMHO are a lot stronger than either of those, only downside I would mention is the bowls go quickly compared to the vapes you mentioned. Cant compare to LSV as I haven't tried it

-Personally I don't mind dry hits as long as I have clean glass, however I have really bad asthma and it doesn't take much to agitate it (especially vapor). Short answer I prefer water cooled hits

-Water cooled hits with UD is a very deadly combination. Being able to take in much more vapor at once can really put you on your ass and several combuster friends I know have told me so from just 1-2 hits. Prepare for extreme cases staring at your wall and sinking into you couch....