Titanium versus glass bangers; the Airpath debate

[Anon3200]

Hey guys I started this thread because I feel like there's a lot of misinformation going around.

I have been vaporizing a long time, the first time I vaporized was in 2000 using a homemade device, in 2002 I purchased my first and favorite vaporizer which won the Cannabis cup in 1998. I have made my own extracts and have vaporized concentrates before HMK and his sister developed the first "Kut" vape. I have used a ton of different methods.

I am personally getting the best dabs then I have tasted it from using a kubeone with the liger air, glob mode, and a sapphire insert.

I have heard other say that they taste a sharp taste from titanium. I have tasted this exact same taste from both titanium and quartz. It is caused by having a vaporizer dish temperature that is not optimal. I think one of the issues might have been a hardware software error that only affected liger air kubeone users. The newest version works amazingly and I cannot rave about it more.

There are a lot of reasons to choose a specific concentrate vaporizer. I just want to make sure we're making our choices this with the correct information and science.

Titanium is not a very reactive metal. It is used for things like holding though corrosive materials that would eat through stainless steel. It has been used a lot in the medical and dental industry due to its corrosive resistance. It is very unlikely that any chemical reactions happening to even the smallest amount of vapor in the air path of a titanium enail. The only reaction that we should be concerned with is oxidation. Titanium oxide is not supposed to be great for your help although it's in a lot of your food. It is a white dull pigment. You would recognize it from any time you've seen a nail that was cooked red hot with a acetylene torch. Titanium oxide is the white chalky coating. However with an enail the temperature never gets hot enough to oxidize the titanium. That is why the metal does not become dull and white. Again my position is that there are no chemical reactions in the air path of a titanium banger and that the all you need to do is have the correct temperature at your dish to properly enjoy the day. Just as you would with a quartz banger.

 

[Kanna_Kult]

So I’m not saying it’s a chemical reaction, but ti makes the vapor have a specific taste to it. I can’t tell you why, but I can say I’ve used a D-nail halo, a liger, and one of newvapes enails, and I owned the halo for years. None of them match the flavor of my quartz bangers with gem inserts. It’s not a night and day difference, but it’s there. I know people can have very different palates so maybe it’s just not something everyone can taste? I’d still hit something that has ti in the airpath but tbh I probably wouldn’t consider buying anything with it. I think the titanium body nails are definitely the best option for some though, do to the durability. Nothing against the metal, after all it’s what my right shin is made of hahaha

 

[Anon3200]

You're talking about the sharp taste? I've got that from quartz as well, and I don't taste it when I have my titanium dialed in.

What system did you use with the liger air? I was getting bad results with one particular update from August Haus but the newest one kills it. Stabilized, quick, and consistent up temp is awesome.

I think some confusion comes from the fact that weekend taste of metals in our mouths. Some metals like aluminum and copper are much more reactive. I'm not sure if our taste buds are tasting the metal, the cold flavor or if it has something to do with metal being conductive or generating electricity in the presence of saliva. Of course there's a big difference from having an inch and a half of titanium before your glass piece then and sticking a big chunk of aluminum in your mouth. They say it's dangerous to even cook with aluminum.

You need to have any system dialed in to have the best flavor. If it's too cool or uneven it'll sit around and chemically degrade, if it's too hot it will also chemically degrade. New concentrates are full of terps that are easily degraded, many of these terps use to be a loss to the curing flower the process but now extracts are made from fresh material to preserve the more fragile flavors.

 

[Kanna_Kult]

You're talking about the sharp taste? I've got that from quartz as well, and I don't taste it when I have my titanium dialed in.

What system did you use with the liger air? I was getting bad results with one particular update from August Haus but the newest one kills it. Stabilized, quick, and consistent up temp is awesome.

I think some confusion comes from the fact that weekend taste of metals in our mouths. Some metals like aluminum and copper are much more reactive. I'm not sure if our taste buds are tasting the metal, the cold flavor or if it has something to do with metal being conductive or generating electricity in the presence of saliva. Of course there's a big difference from having an inch and a half of titanium before your glass piece then and sticking a big chunk of aluminum in your mouth. They say it's dangerous to even cook with aluminum.

You need to have any system dialed in to have the best flavor. If it's too cool or uneven it'll sit around and chemically degrade, if it's too hot it will also chemically degrade. New concentrates are full of terps that are easily degraded, many of these terps use to be a loss to the curing flower the process but now extracts are made from fresh material to preserve the more fragile flavors.

It wasn’t the liger air, it was the v3. And I was using a sic insert I believe. I wouldn’t call it sharp, it’s hard to describe. Not a exactly metallic taste, but it’s different than using quartz. And when it’s clean like new, it’s much less noticeable. another reason I prefer quartz is it’s easier to keep clean imo, and I like seeing how much build up is In the neck of my banger. I just don’t see where ti wins except in durability. I get better performance from my 710 coils ser up than anything else I’ve ever used. I see a lot of shitty quartz enails that wouldn’t even hold a candle to most of the ti bodied nails, but I think a good quartz set up is nicer all around. But again, everyone has different needs. I think that for some, options like the liger are ideal. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using ti, I just prefer quartz for a lot of reasons, many completely subjective (like aesthetics)

 

[ensabbahnur]

My 2 cents


I think ultimately temp has more to do with it then ti vs glass (for air path at least)

Ive been rocking the quartz bangers for a while and still have the 3.0 with the saph dish setup on 1 of my 2 daily drivers, the flavors change with the temps IMO more then the nail, I find myself using the quartz more simply because it can about 10x more material at once.

Dabbing straight off ti vs quartz/SIC/gems is night and day though, I don't think I've ever dabbed off ti and didn't have a slight metal taste.

 

[Anon3200]

It wasn’t the liger air, it was the v3. And I was using a sic insert I believe. I wouldn’t call it sharp, it’s hard to describe. Not a exactly metallic taste, but it’s different than using quartz. And when it’s clean like new, it’s much less noticeable. another reason I prefer quartz is it’s easier to keep clean imo, and I like seeing how much build up is In the neck of my banger. I just don’t see where ti wins except in durability. I get better performance from my 710 coils ser up than anything else I’ve ever used. I see a lot of shitty quartz enails that wouldn’t even hold a candle to most of the ti bodied nails, but I think a good quartz set up is nicer all around. But again, everyone has different needs. I think that for some, options like the liger are ideal. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using ti, I just prefer quartz for a lot of reasons, many completely subjective (like aesthetics)

Hmm, I don't get bad tasting residue buildup on my current setup, but I do remember it being a thing on an earlier liger, quartz, and dry rigs. I think moving up to the larger coil made a big difference as it warms the air path and reduces condensation. It seems like my dhgate worm bates diffusion pump knock of collects most of the residue in little round pebbles that pop out of the pump.

I could see where the version 3 would have more condensation than a quartz rig. Quartz would absorb less heat from the vapor do to the lower thermal transfer rate. The narrow and long nature of the liger 3.0 vapor would not help. The liger air is shorter and the metal stays hot so it doesn't have much condensation. I've literally never had to clean the air path where as the liger 3.0 would develop a flavor if it goes uncleaned. Like a dirty bong you could even taste the flavor if you did a empty pull.

Okay yes now I remember I was also getting that flavor from the 50 mm dhgate thermal banger. Nasty condensation would form in the airpath. I could take big rips with it but that thing was gross mostly from the higher temperatures that it required.

I really enjoy using an electronic nail over analog methods. It is great to be able to have consistent dialed-in results. I do feel it's also important to remember the difference in coil size, wattage, and the quality of the controller when making a comparison.

Some of the new quartz rigs use very large coils that are even bigger than the AH liger air axial. A bigger coil is going to give you better performance however big coils are not exclusive to quartz.

My 2 cents


I think ultimately temp has more to do with it then ti vs glass (for air path at least)

Ive been rocking the quartz bangers for a while and still have the 3.0 with the saph dish setup on 1 of my 2 daily drivers, the flavors change with the temps IMO more then the nail, I find myself using the quartz more simply because it can about 10x more material at once.

Dabbing straight off ti vs quartz/SIC/gems is night and day though, I don't think I've ever dabbed off ti and didn't have a slight metal taste.

That is basically how I feel. I can see how some of the giant heavyweight quartz rigs could help you take a massive rip. Using the liger air with a kubeone and glob mode will help because sends the full 150 Watts from the coil to your insert so that you can maintain the dish temperature. This might actually be better than a big quartz rig for that reason.

Also I don't see a reason why someone could make a titanium super heavyweight system with an equally large coil and higher Mass insert.

 

[Kanna_Kult]

But what’s the reason to use ti over quartz? What’s the benefit beyond durability? I see why you like AH and glob mode but if the same thing could be done with quartz what would be the reason to use ti?

 

[Anon3200]

Durability, strength, transfer rate, and precision.

* Using titanium allows one to have more insert and coil at a set weight point. Sapphire has twice as much thermal mass per gram as a quartz.

* The strength and precision allows there to be a heat shield to reflect much of the heat back into the coil and insert.

* The strength and high heat transfer rate means there is less of a thermal barrier between the coil and the insert. This allows for less lag when it comes to readings / heating, and allows for a fantastic a glob mode response.

A lot of the quartz that I have used add consistency and precision issues. I know that some of the scientific quartz manufacturers have improved consistency by combining machining and glass-blowing techniques.

But what’s the reason to use ti over quartz? What’s the benefit beyond durability? I see why you like AH and glob mode but if the same thing could be done with quartz what would be the reason to use ti?

The last I checked blowing glass including quartz was bad for your eyes skin and lungs. It is supposed to take at least 10 years off your life.


I just asked my Google home why metals have a taste it said "On the website chemistry.Stackexchange.Com They say most metals will taste metallic due to tarnishes on the forming on their surface, mostly oxides that all have the familiar metallic taste".

I suppose this explains why freshly cleaned stainless steel has almost no taste while an old penny tastes the worst.

The boiling point for titanium is very high, I do not see any metallic oxides becoming vapor so as long as the titanium is not being put directly in your mouth there should be no metallic flavors. I think it's more about the thermodynamics at the dish, and how airpath design works with the thermodynamics, airflow, and condensation of the vapor.

(Stuff added at the end to avoid back-to-back posts)

 

[invertedisdead]

Been dabbing since boro nails + domes so I remember when Ti nails came out... I'm never going back to a titanium air path.

It is very unlikely that any chemical reactions happening to even the smallest amount of vapor in the air path of a titanium enail.

Can you explain why titanium dabs create such undesirable vapor when the surface is non-reactive with great thermal properties? What's the catch?

 

[Anon3200]

Been dabbing since boro nails + domes so I remember when Ti nails came out... I'm never going back to a titanium air path.




Can you explain why titanium dabs create such undesirable vapor when the surface is non-reactive with great thermal properties? What's the catch?

Bro, I was dabbing, reading cannabis alchemy (Dr Gold), and using an ISO2 (from the 70s) before the boro nails even came out. I dab so much that one time I bought a QP of dabs for personal use. Have you ever had so much dabs that you had to keep it in a Pyrex cereal bowl?

The boro nails and domes actually came out a few years after a guy called hashmasterkut invented the use of titanium and modern dabbing with the original kut vape that his sister produced. It was a titanium of skillet that you would swing under a glass bell. This was back when overgrow was around, which you would know from the genetic lineage that a member OG'er passed around. His Kush is in everything these days.

Really though people have been dabbing with hot knives and hot pipes since the 70s.

A number of years after HMK, aqua lab started selling the boro nails and domes. Then they later started selling generic titanium skillets, then titanium nails, then quartz and ceramics. I can't remember when they started selling legit HMK skillets.

Performance is all about the thermodynamics at hand. Titanium has okay heat transfer but low retention due to having a low specific heat. This means you will need to get titanium hotter per gram if you are using it as your thermal mass. I probably liked my original Chinese enail so much because it was thin enough that it was more of a conduit for heat between the nail and the dab rather than a thermal mass. Torch dabbing off a titanium wasn't great for this reason.

So basically titanium is a great thermal conduit and construction material but is not the best insert because there other materials with higher conductivity and higher specific heat.

Making a banger with a silicon carbide bucket would be pretty awesome. Still that wouldn't be as thin as titanium can be.

I think what we need is a double weight, double thick Sapphire insert. Especially one with a round edge that would match a 5 mm sphere.


Oh and just to be clear the dabs I'm getting from my liger air (now rocking serial number 7), with AH coil, shroud, KUBEONE, sapphire insert, and four different carb caps are the best tasting dabs, vapor, or smoke that I have ever had. I can use a number of the different up temperature settings on the kube one to match the size of my dad. There is a taster setting, a drop setting, a glob setting, and "the big one". Most of the time my girlfriend and I will use the taster setting, but sometimes I will use the other when I want something more extreme. Even with, "the big one" , deep dish temperature returns to baseline before I can recover from the hit.

 

[invertedisdead]

You missed the question?

BTW HMK still sells Units and Swings on IG, but for some reason titanium dabbing is not as popular as it used to be. Any idea why? Whats the catch? Why switch to breakable Quartz when titanium is so durable and possesses such great thermodynamics properties? What's the catch?

 

[Anon3200]

Performance is all about the thermodynamics at hand. Titanium has okay heat transfer but low retention due to having a low specific heat. This means you will need to get titanium hotter per gram if you are using it as your thermal mass. I probably liked my original Chinese enail so much because it was thin enough that it was more of a conduit for heat between the nail and the dab rather than a thermal mass. Torch dabbing off a titanium wasn't great for this reason.

So basically titanium is a great thermal conduit and construction material but is not the best insert because there other materials with higher conductivity and higher specific heat.

You missed the question?

BTW HMK still sells Units and Swings on IG, but for some reason titanium dabbing is not as popular as it used to be. Any idea why? Whats the catch? Why switch to breakable Quartz when titanium is so durable and possesses such great thermodynamics properties? What's the catch?

Titanium does not have the best thermal properties there are many materials with higher thermal conductivity. Quartz has very poor thermal conductivity but okay specific heat or heat retention.

Titanium is a better conduit of heat to a insert because of its lower thermal mass, thinner walls, and because it has a higher heat transfer rate than quartz.

If you don't understand the difference between heat transfer rate and specific heat and then I suggest you study it.

 

[invertedisdead]

Higher conductivity? The most popular vaporization surface on the market has 1/20th the conductivity of titanium. It's pretty obvious that's not why people largely stopped dabbing off tI.

 

[Anon3200]

Higher conductivity? The most popular vaporization surface on the market has 1/20th the conductivity of titanium. It's pretty obvious that's not why people largely stopped dabbing off tI.

Yes but titanium has a low specific heat. Respectfully, do you understand what specific heat means?

It is a measurement of the amount of energy required to raise a mass of material by 1 degree C. Simply put titanium doesn't hold a lot of heat.

Sapphire has a high specific heat and high density that's why it's such a great material to dab off of. It's all about holding as many joules of energy as you can at the lowest temperature above vaporizing as possible for effective vaporization.

 

[ensabbahnur]

I swear you 2 have already had this exact same argument when Anon first started posting.

I completely agree a larger/heavier ti banger/gem setup would be better then a quartz banger/gem setup and Ive said as much a long time ago yet couldn't intelligently explain why and Im pretty sure specific heat or something very similar to it is it, ti is IMO a much better intermediary between the heating coil and the dish itself. There is much more difference between a heavy iron pan and light weight aluminum pan then you'd initially thing, not only the amount of heat they hold but how fast that heat is released into whats being cooked.

As to why quartz is so prevalent, I think we have covered this a few times too and it comes down to several issues, Id imagine start up production cost and overall expenses with quartz would be a fraction of ti and prolly has a bit to do with it.

As Ive stated before, quartz and ti have there places and until someone makes an actual ti apples to quartz apples comparison we are all just talking out of our asses for the most part.

Also lets not forget that "best" (notice the quotes please) /= most used in almost any example.

 

[Anon3200]

Thermal dynamics can be fun.

Did you know it takes more energy to boil a KG of water then it does to melt a KG of aluminum?


Specific heat of water =1 CAL per g per C

Energy to increase 1000grams of water from 20-100 degrees C = 80,000 calories

The entropy of vaporization of water = 540 CAL per G, boiling 1000grams of water = 540,000 CAL

540,000 + 80,000 = 620,000 CAL

The specific heat of aluminum is 0.214 cal/g°c.
The melting point is 660.3°C

Energy to increase 1000 grams of aluminum from 20 to 660°C

640 x 0.214 x 1000 = 136,960 calories
Latent heat of fusion for aluminum is 95 CAL per g
95 x 1000 = 95,000
+ 136900 = 231900 CAL to heat and melt 1000g oi alumium.

It takes 2.67 more energy to boil 1000grams of water then it takes to melt 1000g of aluminum

I love the heavy iron comparison, although I'd say its more like comparing a copper-bottom/stainless-topped frying pan to heavy cast iron. Having used both I know you can cook a killer steak with either, however, the copper pan is going to heat up faster, be more responsive, and will cook a bit more evenly... I really need to get my copper back from my GF's mom, cast iron is good but copper bottom steal is the next level.

I swear you 2 have already had this exact same argument when Anon first started posting.

I completely agree a larger/heavier ti banger/gem setup would be better then a quartz banger/gem setup and Ive said as much a long time ago yet couldn't intelligently explain why and Im pretty sure specific heat or something very similar to it is it, ti is IMO a much better intermediary between the heating coil and the dish itself. There is much more difference between a heavy iron pan and light weight aluminum pan then you'd initially thing, not only the amount of heat they hold but how fast that heat is released into whats being cooked.

As to why quartz is so prevalent, I think we have covered this a few times too and it comes down to several issues, Id imagine start up production cost and overall expenses with quartz would be a fraction of ti and prolly has a bit to do with it.

As Ive stated before, quartz and ti have there places and until someone makes an actual ti apples to quartz apples comparison we are all just talking out of our asses for the most part.

Also lets not forget that "best" (notice the quotes please) /= most used in almost any example.

 

[biohacker]

This isn't scientific but just my own personal experience along my 15 year journey starting with my very first vaporizer, the Arizer V-Tower. That eventually progressed to concentrate vaping and then dabbing, to my present day dabbing off of gemstones with an ALL GLASS path.

Ti path =

Quartz path =

That's my experience! @Anon3200 you missed out A LOT during your absence here, IMO you will be much better off finding the information you're looking for with the Search tool (you definitely know how to find the discussions lol)

You also seem to be in denial based on your crusade in both the Gemstone insert thread and the CCA threads continuously repeating yourself and bringing up @Shooby without even properly tagging him to defend himself.

 

[JCat]

Thanks @Anon3200 for the information about the physical properties of the material, and the math; this is of interest, truly (although not new to me). This is an interesting direction for the conversation to take.

I understand the physics behind it, although I haven't done the analysis as in depth as you have, more then looking up a lot of these numbers as well as personal observation.

The thermal properties of the material are quite interesting to me, and I've spent a lot of time thinking about them, having spent a lot of time (a few hundred hours being conservative?) experimenting and developing custom software that controls my Omron PID for my e-nail (the FC E-Nail by J-Cat project), as well as having written PID algorithms in various languages as well as auto-tune algorithms etc.

Some of the experimentation I have done with various materials though, is measured actual surface temperatures, either (or both) using contact thermocouples or IR readings where appropriate.

Up-temp dabs were the way to go in my opinion when using a SiC dish, due to the thermal properties of SiC. Having the coil either directly on the SiC dish, or having very quick thermal transfer for reading and heating through any transfer layer, is very important in this scenario. This is where SiC shines ... it's also very responsive to the coil, so you can quickly heat it up (although it also quickly loses it's heat as a consequence).

So with SiC ... up-temp was the way to go ... you'd get your dab on there and quickly up the temp of your dish.

Now having moved to gemstones, and previously back to quartz inserts, what I've found is that up-temp dabs really don't work that great; although the thermal properties of SiC are great, perhaps that is where I don't enjoy the taste as much; perhaps my issue is more the SiC rather than the Ti pathway? (this is quite possible since I haven't tried gemstone with Ti). Alternately, if a reputable company offered SiC inserts for 25 or 30mm bangers that could also settle that debate for me (whether it is related to the SiC or the Ti).

The reasons behind the up-temp dabs not working great with gemstones in my opinion, are the thermal properties of the gemstones (and quartz). It just takes too long to heat quartz, and similarly to heat the gemstones; you might be able to get better performance heating the gemstones directly/more quickly which is where coil->Ti->gemstone might be of benefit, but where I really see this as an issue, is if you are applying enough energy to rapidly heat your gemstone, with direct coil or almost through a thin layer of Ti, then are you not risking thermal shock?

What I've definitely come down to (in my opinion), when using gemstone (or quartz) inserts:
a) When you drop a dab on your gemstone insert, size of gemstone insert matters as that directly reflects how much heat will be lost.
b) The size of your dab (in relation to the mass of your insert), will also affect how much heat will be lost when you first drop the dab
c) The more mass your insert has, the longer it will take to re-apply sufficient energy to recover that heat
d) Generally speaking, with gemstone/quartz inserts, an up-temp dab does not make sense, as you just can't recover the energy quickly enough, so the dab is weak, or you are starting at a high enough temp anyways, and you're actually doing a down-temp dab despite the PID reading going up.

So ... this is why we've all ended up at down-temp dabs with gemstone inserts ... when I drop a dab on my 19mm ruby or sapphire insert (in my 25mm banger), it has a floor temp of ~490-495F. The temp drops to about 440F or so pretty much immediately with my average sized dabs, and climbs to 450F due to the fact that the quartz banger is sitting @ about 500F floor temp when I started. I turn off my PID curently or drop-temp it to 485F ... both are really pretty similar I've played with up-temps (and I can up-temp so it applies a full power to the coil ... short of making it red-hot of course ... simply by adjusting my PID settings and scripting appropriate temps ... for example, with an aggressive P value in my settings, then I can up-temp it in my script by a couple hundred degrees before dropping the temp back down automatically when hit so it has the effect of applying full power to the coil as soon as I start my dab ... I've tried this instead starting at lower dish temps and trying to up-temp it ... but this led to harsher hits then my now preferred down temp method.

Anyways ... just my 2 cents based on a few hundred hours plus (likely >500) of experimentation and thought in regards to specifically this ... coil/material/dab surface and thermal properties.

I could probably go on ... this is truly of interest to me ...

Oh yeah ... one other important piece when considering this stuff ... maintenance (just talking about dab surface here, so not discussing Ti):
- SiC and quartz are easy to maintain because they are extremely resistant to thermal shock (can just throw either into a tub of room temp ISO when they are at 500F + with no issue)
- Sapphire/Ruby are easy to maintain if they have a really well polished surface. They wipe clean with a dry q-tip when hot (or almost completely clean), and if maintained with q-tips when hot, can be wiped 100% clean when at room temp with an ISO wipe (70%)

 

[Baron23]

I don't care what the air path is....I don't notice very much of a difference based merely on the AIR path.

For example, my Liger 2.0 with Obsidian insert is a Ti AIR path. No problem with it for me.

Now, Ti as a dab surface....yeah, don't care for it....don't care for the taste.

Just my subjective experience.

Cheers

 

[Anon3200]

Mori Design - Raydiator Pipe

I used to have one of these. When it was clean it was one of the best tasting pipes that I ever smoked out of.