This is somewhat disheartening

just_the_flu

they say im crazy but i have a good time
... not shocked...

... how is that disheartening? If your using for pain and your pain is reduced, does that not prove your brain/state of mind works better than drugs?

...arnt most medicinal drugs placebos in some form or another? Drugs have to beat placebo 9/10 times so really were capable of healing ourselves if we wanted to...
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
Cannabis doesn't relieve "pain". It reduces suffering.

I first started using cannabis because I was in severe pain 24/7. And no pharma drug could fix it. Couldn't eat. Couldn't sleep. Was literally wasting away. The cannabis didn't remove the pain. It was still there. But I was able to cope with the pain. The way I describe it is, I was still in pain. I just didn't care that I was still in pain.

That reduction in suffering allowed me to eat and sleep. After 6 months or so I was better. And I might have gotten better anyway. But I'm not sure I would've lived through 6 months of constant, mind numbing pain without cannabis.

Also important to note: this is a meta study that relies on self reported data. Shouldn't be disregarded but it's not definitive.
 

MrSpicoli

Member
... not shocked...

... how is that disheartening? If your using for pain and your pain is reduced, does that not prove your brain/state of mind works better than drugs?

...arnt most medicinal drugs placebos in some form or another? Drugs have to beat placebo 9/10 times so really were capable of healing ourselves if we wanted to...

I don't think most drugs are placebos, no. Waiting it out or taking a milk-powder pill isn't going to take away my headache like Advil. I can specifically attest to that as one time I asked someone for Advil and they gave me a vitamin capsule by mistake. Of course it didn't help. You can't make pain disappear by wishing it away. Remember that your whole body is drugs, that is made up of chemicals. Sometimes things go askew and external chemicals help balance things out again. Take a dying cancer patient off their morphine drip without telling them and see if they notice. They will.

Cannabis doesn't relieve "pain". It reduces suffering.

I first started using cannabis because I was in severe pain 24/7. And no pharma drug could fix it. Couldn't eat. Couldn't sleep. Was literally wasting away. The cannabis didn't remove the pain. It was still there. But I was able to cope with the pain. The way I describe it is, I was still in pain. I just didn't care that I was still in pain.

That reduction in suffering allowed me to eat and sleep. After 6 months or so I was better. And I might have gotten better anyway. But I'm not sure I would've lived through 6 months of constant, mind numbing pain without cannabis.

Also important to note: this is a meta study that relies on self reported data. Shouldn't be disregarded but it's not definitive.

That's the way I would put it. Cannabis relieves "pain of mind" rather than physical pain. I suppose it could quell physical pain if it was mild enough, and it would depend on the the kind of pain it is.
 
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biohacker

Well-Known Member
What's disheartening is all the recent research on effects on the heart and especially endothelial function, and this includes cannabis vape not just smoke. Recently i've seen CBD vape being worse than nicotine vape, like wtf lol



 

Dustin McKief

Well-Known Member
This study backs up my own experiences. For higher pain levels, I found that following medical advice to increase OTC NSAID dosage or use prescription NSAIDs did not help me. Drinking alcohol did help; obviously that has many negative health impacts. I have not tried opioids and hope I can keep it that way.

Link to full paper.

All of that said, there is still a dearth of research on cannabis and other plant compounds. We must simultaneously preserve as many plants as possible for future research (40% of all prescription drugs are plant-derived and it's estimated that 21% of plants are currently endangered) while increasing research (once policy makers come to their senses).

(Mods: should this thread be moved over to the Medical Discussion?)
 

Grass Yes

Yes
Staff member
I think it an interesting meta-analysis but I don't think it is the definitive answer. For example, the analysis examined 20 studies but weighted 14 of them differently due to possible bias. Only 3 of the studies considered CBD and this was not accounted for in the analysis. Obviously, given where we are with cannabis studies this meta-analysis has a high degree of heterogeneity, which they try to account for with their model. Also I don't think was any post-hoc analysis of the meta-analytical data. Finally, blinding is specifically called out as uneven across the studies.

So an interesting meta-analysis, but the headline overstates the result as is typical in pop science articles.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
What's disheartening is all the recent research on effects on the heart and especially endothelial function, and this includes cannabis vape not just smoke. Recently i've seen CBD vape being worse than nicotine vape, like wtf lol




The rat study isn't super convincing to me. Mainly because there are variables you can't control for. Namely.... you're giving a psychoactive substance to an animal that has no comprehension of what cannabis is.

Can you imagine if you were a child or someone who has never heard of the concept of intoxication before, only to have a guy with a lab coat shooting vapor up your nose until you're high? My guess is this would cause a massive cortisol spike. Cortisol leads to heart disease.

The longitudinal human study is a little better. But still. Lots of variables aren't being controlled for.

My feeling is... this is only worth worrying about if you've already taken steps to move away from the Standard American Diet. Because that's what's going to cause heart disease looooong before the cannabis.

I am interested in whatever this protective molecule is though.

Edit: oh wait nevermind. It's soy? I'd rather turn my entire circulatory system into a pressure cooker IED than be a soyboy, brother!

freedom GIF
 

invertedisdead

PHASE3
Manufacturer
This happens a lot in the “science” community - they use the word “cannabis” but if you jump into the study it tells a different story.


FF0-DFFB2-8-B70-4-E72-8326-0-F954-A69-B1-D4.jpg


Right off the bat we see a slew of highly purified, fractionated, isolated and synthetic cannabinoids and patent medicine. Where’s the cannabis at?

One of the endothelial studies asserts that CBD is inflammatory but what about the MCT oil it’s diluted with? There’s a reason everybody quit doing that...

Not a huge fan of these “meta analyses” in general - often seems very correlative and frankly unscientific. This is all assuming the study participants are relatively healthy to begin with to even attempt to demonstrate a pattern. But the actual chances of that are fairly slim as well which makes the science even more theoretical, rather than demonstrable.

So yeah, I wouldn’t expect too much pain relief from fragmented synthetic research chemicals.

Even if they used real cannabis, what are the chances that “one size fits all?”
I bet you’d get pain relief if you had access to real sun grown, seed grown, Afghan Kush. White Runtz from clone grown in a sterilized and climate controlled grow room on the other hand? Eh...

Unfortunately the scientific community doesn’t generally mesh well with metaphysics and natural law so this side of thinking is often omitted from the discussion. Obviously whole plant medicine presents a monetization issue for the pharmaceutical conglomerates who fund most of this type of research.

Also the idea that the endothelial inflammation is caused by THC and not the irritants present from the hot smoke inhalation seems pretty silly. I call this the “microscope effect” - it’s when someone is zoomed in so closely on a subject that they can’t even see what they are looking at any more. When you zoom out you see plenty of more plausible scenarios. Prior research has shown THC to be 20x more powerful than aspirin for inflammation.

Also anecdotally when my mom was going through cancer I found peppermint essential oil to work much better for nausea than cannabis. It’s pretty simple really, it’s very difficult to ingest cannabis orally when you’re already nauseous and vomiting. Essential oils applied topically absorb nearly instantly into the bloodstream, or you can diffuse them which is a little slower administration but still very effective. The organic steam distilled peppermint oil was absolutely incredible for nausea. Most likely the essential oil components in cannabis are some of the most powerful components as well, but most aren’t consuming in a way that would preserve these optimally.
 

LesPlenty

Well-Known Member
Company Rep
The study was done by th American Medical Association and a quick Google says about them,
Funded by the drug industry, a single, medical monopoly was established using the insurance industry, the U.S. Department of Justice, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the Internal Revenue Service (IRC), the U.S. Postal Service and other state and federal agencies.

Pretty sure they would rather make money than help people.:2c:
 

Radwin Bodnic

Well-Known Member
I bet you’d get pain relief if you had access to real sun grown, seed grown, Afghan Kush. White Runtz from clone grown in a sterilized and climate controlled grow room on the other hand? Eh...

I never experienced real pain relief from cannabis until I had to find a new plug… Outdoor growing in the mountains around me, the guy is producing his own seeds for years and his strain (don't know which) seem to have well adjusted to the climate. He's almost not working the soil where he grows, he waters to the minimum and uses only organic fertilizer (very little)… It produces small buds and a lot of sugar leafs. The weed is not impressive at all, neither its taste nor its potency.
But this weed made me discover the effectiveness of cannabis on pain. A 10-20 mg bowl slowly roasted in a 10 min Vapman session and my back pain is gone for an hour at least…

I hardly understand how it could be placebo since the first time I experienced it, it really took me by surprise. 15min after the end of session I just realized how free from pain my body was… Before I met this very specific flower I thought painkilling with cannabis was a myth. And I have used some really fine flower before. They all were very effective but none had this power on the body and pain.
 

Dankvinci

Well-Known Member
Cannabis doesn't relieve "pain". It reduces suffering.

I first started using cannabis because I was in severe pain 24/7. And no pharma drug could fix it. Couldn't eat. Couldn't sleep. Was literally wasting away. The cannabis didn't remove the pain. It was still there. But I was able to cope with the pain. The way I describe it is, I was still in pain. I just didn't care that I was still in pain.

That reduction in suffering allowed me to eat and sleep. After 6 months or so I was better. And I might have gotten better anyway. But I'm not sure I would've lived through 6 months of constant, mind numbing pain without cannabis.

Also important to note: this is a meta study that relies on self reported data. Shouldn't be disregarded but it's not definitive.
This is such great info, the plant has so many ways it can be used, and the ratio's of the cannabinoids push and pull each others effects.
 

weedidas

Well-Known Member

C No Ego

Well-Known Member
Depolarization induced suppression of inhibition of neurotransmitter release ( DSI )
there is also DSE- depolarization induced suppression of excitation

DSI is to stop pain signaling via the backwards messages of cannabinoids
DSE stops out of control automimmune type cells that need suppression

Also , Bile Acids !! Cannabinoids ingested, immediately bind with / into Bile Acids ... ! Bile acids are our main pain preventer in our bodies

phytocannabinoids are not COX blockers like Nsaids so do not prevent pain in the same way . they are active in COX/ LOX etc.....
 

coolbreeze

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I'd consider it a miracle cure but it helps with arthritis. Just a couple hits and it seems like it's knocked down a level or two to where it doesn't bother me much and I can proceed with things. It helps.
 

TigoleBitties

Big and Bouncy
I don't doubt the pain relieving effects of cannabis. I luckily don't currently have any serious, chronic pain condition but I'm trying to stay flexible as I age and I find a nice vape blast before stretching helps immensely with muscle aches and pains.

I don't know if its a specific analgesic mechanism, increased blood flow from vasodilation or some type of muscle-relaxant effect but I can definitely feel the difference. Weed allows me to stretch more deeply and with reduced pain compared to the level of pain I experience without it. No question.
 

C No Ego

Well-Known Member
I don't doubt the pain relieving effects of cannabis. I luckily don't currently have any serious, chronic pain condition but I'm trying to stay flexible as I age and I find a nice vape blast before stretching helps immensely with muscle aches and pains.

I don't know if its a specific analgesic mechanism, increased blood flow from vasodilation or some type of muscle-relaxant effect but I can definitely feel the difference. Weed allows me to stretch more deeply and with reduced pain compared to the level of pain I experience without it. No question.
added cellular plasticity is gained via ingesting exogenous C-21/C-22 phytocannabinoids ... more plasticity means more cellular learning and adaptation to environment .... adapting to your moves your cells will
 
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