Silat
When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
You are calling BS on my post that Christianity is not for female equality?
LOL Then you are ignoring the reality.
The war on women in the US is perpetrated by christians. That is just a fact.
The Religion Thread
- Thread starter BD9
- Start date
You are calling BS on my post that Christianity is not for female equality?
LOL Then you are ignoring the reality.
The war on women in the US is perpetrated by christians. That is just a fact.
yogoshio
Annoying Libertarian
If you mean abortion, then yes. We believe all mankind is made in the image and likeness of God, and therefore any deterrence or interfering with life is abhorrent and idolatrous.
If you mean anything else, it is a bastardization of Christianity being used to subjugate people. Christianity is about freedom, not subjugation.
As I mentioned previously, I am not arguing from a protestant evangelical perspective, as I think even that is an aberration of true Christian doctrine. Orthodoxy predates both the reformation and papal supremacy.
So yes, I am calling bs. You also fail to distinguish culture from theology. The theology of Christianity is incredibly clear about the equality of men and women, the complimentary design of each. If there is someone or a group using Christianity to subjugate women, they are not acting as Christians, plain and simple.
By that logic all Muslims want death and destruction to all non Muslims, which I am fairly certain you claim is an aberration of Islam, yes?
If you mean anything else, it is a bastardization of Christianity being used to subjugate people. Christianity is about freedom, not subjugation.
As I mentioned previously, I am not arguing from a protestant evangelical perspective, as I think even that is an aberration of true Christian doctrine. Orthodoxy predates both the reformation and papal supremacy.
So yes, I am calling bs. You also fail to distinguish culture from theology. The theology of Christianity is incredibly clear about the equality of men and women, the complimentary design of each. If there is someone or a group using Christianity to subjugate women, they are not acting as Christians, plain and simple.
By that logic all Muslims want death and destruction to all non Muslims, which I am fairly certain you claim is an aberration of Islam, yes?
gangababa
Well-Known Member
We all need be cautious about calling BS on any issue that can't be adjudicated by the five primary means of knowledge. Yes Scripture is perverted by people who profess but practice not their Lord's lead.
We live in a transactional-temporal world of sociology and psychology; interacting with others to further our own perceived best interests, built of selfish desires, both better and worst, and our perception of the game of life*.
As beings free to make choices that can harm self and others, we can be destructive forces in society.
Thus it seems to be the nature of things that societies have expectations of 'right' conduct (Dharma).
Scripture is a perfect example of a means of knowledge based upon "being told" purported truths.
But scripture is about transcendent matters that are not verifiable, (heaven, hell, God).
Scriptural claims may be outlandish and hard to understand, but any claim that goes against logic (the intelligence built into the jagat- e.g. mathematics) ought be rejected or subject to the demand of extraordinary proof.
When a society claims a God of love, forgiveness and inclusion and has scriptures supporting the best of our intentions...
When also seeds of sickness within a society sprout as deplorable disturbances due to sad, selfish, simple-minded citizens...
Then we see the disconnect between claimed virtues (scripture) and acted out values (religion).
In our USA, it is factual there are professed religionists (mostly Christian) behaving badly.
We might say deplorably. As do Saints, deplorable people use scriptures to justify their choices.
Correct understanding and teaching of scripture is not evidenced when I (with my God's image-made intelligence, mind, heart) am asked to believe God wants walls.
Scripture serves only when it explains to us our true nature (svarupa). Mistakes about self, others, and the world in which we live, cause us to confuse and conflate levels of reality.
The "absolute" (subject matter of religion) and also the "temporal" (subject matter of science) can not be navigated nor explained using the 'rules' from the other. Our perceived Newtonian world and the imperceptible quantum world seem to follow different 'rules'. But both appear to be true descriptions of temporal reality.
*This so very important and I could do a long essay upon how culturally shared weltanschauung can result in healthy balanced individuals and society, or how a myth can mangle the human condition.
Do you awake each morning to a jagat (world as known to you) that is malevolent, indifferent, or cooperative?
What children are raised up in neighborhoods, towns, and nearby around environments that are welcoming, progressive, eager for knowledge, based upon reality, not logically lacking nor known to be negated (false)?
What children are raised up in environments that are regressive, segregating, clinging to false knowledge, twisting reality, encouraging meanness and selfishness?
We live in a transactional-temporal world of sociology and psychology; interacting with others to further our own perceived best interests, built of selfish desires, both better and worst, and our perception of the game of life*.
As beings free to make choices that can harm self and others, we can be destructive forces in society.
Thus it seems to be the nature of things that societies have expectations of 'right' conduct (Dharma).
Scripture is a perfect example of a means of knowledge based upon "being told" purported truths.
But scripture is about transcendent matters that are not verifiable, (heaven, hell, God).
Scriptural claims may be outlandish and hard to understand, but any claim that goes against logic (the intelligence built into the jagat- e.g. mathematics) ought be rejected or subject to the demand of extraordinary proof.
When a society claims a God of love, forgiveness and inclusion and has scriptures supporting the best of our intentions...
When also seeds of sickness within a society sprout as deplorable disturbances due to sad, selfish, simple-minded citizens...
Then we see the disconnect between claimed virtues (scripture) and acted out values (religion).
In our USA, it is factual there are professed religionists (mostly Christian) behaving badly.
We might say deplorably. As do Saints, deplorable people use scriptures to justify their choices.
Correct understanding and teaching of scripture is not evidenced when I (with my God's image-made intelligence, mind, heart) am asked to believe God wants walls.
Scripture serves only when it explains to us our true nature (svarupa). Mistakes about self, others, and the world in which we live, cause us to confuse and conflate levels of reality.
The "absolute" (subject matter of religion) and also the "temporal" (subject matter of science) can not be navigated nor explained using the 'rules' from the other. Our perceived Newtonian world and the imperceptible quantum world seem to follow different 'rules'. But both appear to be true descriptions of temporal reality.
*This so very important and I could do a long essay upon how culturally shared weltanschauung can result in healthy balanced individuals and society, or how a myth can mangle the human condition.
Do you awake each morning to a jagat (world as known to you) that is malevolent, indifferent, or cooperative?
What children are raised up in neighborhoods, towns, and nearby around environments that are welcoming, progressive, eager for knowledge, based upon reality, not logically lacking nor known to be negated (false)?
What children are raised up in environments that are regressive, segregating, clinging to false knowledge, twisting reality, encouraging meanness and selfishness?
@Silat, If really believe the Judeo scriptures, and I assume you do otherwise this conversation, and the fact that you are talking about them will be a waste of time.
So think about it for a minute, if the God of the scriptures is who he claims to be, then he is the Creator, and everything else is His creation, and as such we have no right to even question anything he does, His creation, his rules.
Did you have any say so on deciding when you wanted to be born? or when you will die? unless you commit suicide, no, it was all His choice, you didn't contribute anything, so nothing belongs to you.
And I agree with you on the fact that he is behind all the killings ordered by Him in the Bible, but at the same time all the good, but we choose to have short memory of that, as the Creator is His right to give life and take it when he decides.
As far as Satan goes, he is just one of His creations and Satan made a bad move, so he got the punishment he rightly deserves.
And how in the world an act of disobedience (sin) be a good think if it brought about death and a curse upon all the Creation.
And by the way, he gives a chance to break away from the curse, but few people care, they rather complain about all the bad around us.
The first person Christ revealed his deity was a woman (the Samaritan), first person Christ appeared after the resurrection was a woman (Mary of Magdalene), there is a prostitute mentioned in the book of Hebrews Faith Hall of Fame as a hero (Rahab) and the following quote is from the book of Galatians.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:26-29
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
The devil is a central figure in The Church of Love, Unrequited. God's greatest lover, whose disappointment keeps it from ever knowing the joy of accepting its place in creation. A tragic hero, indeed.
First avatar for whom the name fits. (Charles Dance as Karellan.)
Profound show. Elliott is becoming the rare leader who inspires love, not just respect or fear. Can't wait for season three.
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Silat
When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
Reread my post that you quoted. I opened with, "Never ever a believer but if I was:".
Was I not clear enough?
True, I didn't see it.
I guess it is a waste of time for the both of us, if you don't believe in it then what's the point?
Anyways, I gave you the answers you were looking for.
Edit:
The reason I say it is a waste of time is because the claims made by the writers of the scriptures, if you don't take them as true then they are useless, and no point in even discussing them.
2nd Edit:
And by the way, the reason I asked if you believe the Judeo Scriptures was out of respect for you, because I din't feel like preaching to you, or trying to convince of anything if you didn't and I admit that I added some Christian Scriptures, but part of that was because Rahab is mentioned on both.
No need to reply.
Have a good day.
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TeeJay1952
Well-Known Member
I listen to Chinese Opera or Arab music on occasion and West African jazz and blues are both in my rotation. I attempt to understand what other find intriguing. Religion and Philosophy are other areas where I like to dabble and peek at. How can I not believe something until I know what it is I don't believe?
I don't preach either. Why would I want to convince you that the tenets of the foundation of your worldview are false?
@mestizo Seeing what each other holds dear is not a waste of time. Might not change anything but"Sharing is Caring"
I don't preach either. Why would I want to convince you that the tenets of the foundation of your worldview are false?
@mestizo Seeing what each other holds dear is not a waste of time. Might not change anything but"Sharing is Caring"
gangababa
Well-Known Member
(an essay prompted by commentary in the 2016 Presidential Candidates thread)
Discussing religion in the context of politics is acceptable when we use our scriptures to guide our own behaviors and inform our own morality.
It is violence to use one's own subjective scriptures in ways that cause objective harm to others.
One can say Clinton is not ethical enough for me. One can say Trump is factually a serial liar. These are moral judgements and ethical facts.
In this country of USA, religion is not a acceptable societal yardstick for governing; it is in the constitution, no religious test for running, and thus none for serving or governing.
One can not say, while dining on shell fish, "Bible says so, so laws must".
Politics is morality and ethics.
Ethics means being good. Good people have always been; even in those thousands of years that God neglected to provide a savior.
Dharma, polite conduct (PC) is not a mandate of God, it is a manifestation of Truth (God).
We all know this. Who can truly affirm they want to be lied to, stolen from, cheated by, or in any other way seek disturbance in one's own life? OK, don't harm others.
Those who have knowledge of God, know nothing. One may be deeply versed in chapter and verse of one's scripture, ignoring or denying any validity in others, and still not know truth.
Not knowing is natural. Knowledge replaces ignorance. All ignoring of the known is subjectivity.
To know God, is to no longer identify as being separate from the limitless whole and thus, by being the whole, you can not bring disturbance to what is essentially your own "Self".
However not knowing this, others' subjectivity can falsely attribute their disturbed lives unto others (i.e. Trump voters), even Saints.
God is not an 'other' that can be the "object" of knowledge.
What means of knowledge (what 5 senses and what logic) can reveal the limitless?
What we understand of knowledge and learning is all about the temporal and relative world, not the absolute. Mathematics reveals this side of the 'Big Bang' event horizon. Math began then and can't reveal the Big Bang behind itself.
Scriptures serve to reveal that which can not be verified. Scripture has truth and place when we are seeking to understand the "Absolute". Applying scripture to legislation brings disturbance; and it is unconstitutional.
Here among us in the USA and elsewhere among others, the use of scripture to justify political repression and harm to other people is a failure of understanding, and cause of ungodly disasters. When laws are justified with scripture that is misunderstood, lied about, mistaught, poorly translated, deliberately misapplied, etc- there is a complete failure of understanding.
"Render onto Caesar..." etc.
I am a Hindu; I believe (so to speak) 100% in God. Indeed, for Advaitin, there is nothing but God.
Other religions say God is limitless, boundless and infinite, but you too really exist as other than that limitlessness.
If one knows truth, one ceases to be a disturbance or problem to others.
If one knows Truth, no longer is there any reason to fear or push back against reality.
If one knows the truth, why continue to build walls?
To Mike Pence and his ilk, I say, God makes people gay.
If this is not true of you (whoever you are or think yourself to be), then you are unhappy.
Only the joyous join God.
So, yes there is disturbance without truthiness when in our Constitutional USA, there are those who are SO sure of their subjective projections ( like creation is 6000 years old), so certain of their reflected back world, colored by such selfish assurance, that they are willing to cause (or allow) actual harm to others (because others fall short of their moral projections).
Discussing religion in the context of politics is acceptable when we use our scriptures to guide our own behaviors and inform our own morality.
It is violence to use one's own subjective scriptures in ways that cause objective harm to others.
One can say Clinton is not ethical enough for me. One can say Trump is factually a serial liar. These are moral judgements and ethical facts.
In this country of USA, religion is not a acceptable societal yardstick for governing; it is in the constitution, no religious test for running, and thus none for serving or governing.
One can not say, while dining on shell fish, "Bible says so, so laws must".
Politics is morality and ethics.
Ethics means being good. Good people have always been; even in those thousands of years that God neglected to provide a savior.
Dharma, polite conduct (PC) is not a mandate of God, it is a manifestation of Truth (God).
We all know this. Who can truly affirm they want to be lied to, stolen from, cheated by, or in any other way seek disturbance in one's own life? OK, don't harm others.
Those who have knowledge of God, know nothing. One may be deeply versed in chapter and verse of one's scripture, ignoring or denying any validity in others, and still not know truth.
Not knowing is natural. Knowledge replaces ignorance. All ignoring of the known is subjectivity.
To know God, is to no longer identify as being separate from the limitless whole and thus, by being the whole, you can not bring disturbance to what is essentially your own "Self".
However not knowing this, others' subjectivity can falsely attribute their disturbed lives unto others (i.e. Trump voters), even Saints.
God is not an 'other' that can be the "object" of knowledge.
What means of knowledge (what 5 senses and what logic) can reveal the limitless?
What we understand of knowledge and learning is all about the temporal and relative world, not the absolute. Mathematics reveals this side of the 'Big Bang' event horizon. Math began then and can't reveal the Big Bang behind itself.
Scriptures serve to reveal that which can not be verified. Scripture has truth and place when we are seeking to understand the "Absolute". Applying scripture to legislation brings disturbance; and it is unconstitutional.
Here among us in the USA and elsewhere among others, the use of scripture to justify political repression and harm to other people is a failure of understanding, and cause of ungodly disasters. When laws are justified with scripture that is misunderstood, lied about, mistaught, poorly translated, deliberately misapplied, etc- there is a complete failure of understanding.
"Render onto Caesar..." etc.
I am a Hindu; I believe (so to speak) 100% in God. Indeed, for Advaitin, there is nothing but God.
Other religions say God is limitless, boundless and infinite, but you too really exist as other than that limitlessness.
If one knows truth, one ceases to be a disturbance or problem to others.
If one knows Truth, no longer is there any reason to fear or push back against reality.
If one knows the truth, why continue to build walls?
To Mike Pence and his ilk, I say, God makes people gay.
If this is not true of you (whoever you are or think yourself to be), then you are unhappy.
Only the joyous join God.
So, yes there is disturbance without truthiness when in our Constitutional USA, there are those who are SO sure of their subjective projections ( like creation is 6000 years old), so certain of their reflected back world, colored by such selfish assurance, that they are willing to cause (or allow) actual harm to others (because others fall short of their moral projections).
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Sausage Party is an amusing look at the current trend toward atheism. If God kills me and eats my soul, I'm cool with it. Is sex the best atheists can do as an alternative? Ho-hum.
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Silat
When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
I am in the USA.
I am not sure what you disagree with.
Are you saying there is no war on women?
Concupiscient
Well-Known Member
That which the knower of the now reveals about self is true -
What attributes/features have we seen?
What attributes/features have we seen?
Concupiscient
Well-Known Member
The eye ... a window to(o) ..
CarolKing
Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
I've watched a bit of Lisa Remini's series explaining Scientology. This is a dangerous religion. This is why I can't stand Tom Cruise any longer or John Travolta. Pretty crazy stuff.
Scientology and 'aliens': What did L. Ron Hubbard actually say about space invaders? « The Underground Bunker
Tony Ortega › 2016/12/12 › scientology...
Dec 12, 2016 - Leah Remini's A&E series, Scientology and the Aftermath, has kicked up a lot of new interest in ... to the subject tend to express amazement about some of Scientology's more bizarre space opera tenets.
Scientology and 'aliens': What did L. Ron Hubbard actually say about space invaders? « The Underground Bunker
Tony Ortega › 2016/12/12 › scientology...
Dec 12, 2016 - Leah Remini's A&E series, Scientology and the Aftermath, has kicked up a lot of new interest in ... to the subject tend to express amazement about some of Scientology's more bizarre space opera tenets.
Fat Freddy
FUCK CANCER TOO !
See! They're real!
grokit
well-worn member
... to the light at the end of the tunnel which is really the birth-canal entrance to your next life?The eye ... a window to(o) ..
howie105
Well-Known Member
You either buy into a presentation or you don't. There were and are all kinds of devout followers out there, ancestor believers, nature worshippers, buddhist followers, pick a mythos . Often the true believers assessment is they have the open line to the powers that be and others probably don't. From my perspective I won't know the story till I get there, whatever or wherever that is if anything. So in my ignorance I can't tell anyone anything about the validity of their beliefs. Live and learn and then die and learn more, maybe.
Concupiscient
Well-Known Member
... or, rather, it's source?
Concupiscient
Well-Known Member
... and we survive.
Diggy Smalls
Notorious
Once upon a time I was a devoted christian. I participated heavily in my community, and did a lot of volunteer work. At this stage in my life the quote "God is dead and no one cares" pretty much sums up my thoughts on spirituality. In my mind it's all mumbo jumbo stories and advice at it's best, and dangerous and evil at it's worst. There was a little while where I had trouble talking about spiritual shit with people again, but it's no longer any sore spot.
I have learned to accept my losses and look at the bright side. I had a lot of good experiences while serving God, and met some great people. I don't need to talk about the bad.
So...I guess I'm atheist? Except if evidence proved there was indeed a God...how could it really impact my life? For real though. It's not like prayers stop shit from happening that shouldn't happen. Even as a christian, the promise of heaven had no appeal to me. I don't need empty promises...holy books are full of those.
Hopefully I didn't go too far. I truly mean no disrespect to anyone. I truly have no issue with religion except when it's used to justify harming others. (like republicans, kkk, bombing abortion clinics, hurting muslims, etc)
I have learned to accept my losses and look at the bright side. I had a lot of good experiences while serving God, and met some great people. I don't need to talk about the bad.
So...I guess I'm atheist? Except if evidence proved there was indeed a God...how could it really impact my life? For real though. It's not like prayers stop shit from happening that shouldn't happen. Even as a christian, the promise of heaven had no appeal to me. I don't need empty promises...holy books are full of those.
Hopefully I didn't go too far. I truly mean no disrespect to anyone. I truly have no issue with religion except when it's used to justify harming others. (like republicans, kkk, bombing abortion clinics, hurting muslims, etc)
waxdab23
Well-Known Member
Interesting that you tie these 2 things together.
crawdad
floatin
for many christianity is what encourages them to consider others in their community, not only for growing congregation or saving souls but to simply have a positive impact on those around them, the teachings become their moral compass. its probably the one reason that even after surviving a cult like experience for about 20 years i still consider many who devote their lives to a cause they cannot reasonably explain as being noble or at least suitable for them.
i considered myself atheist for a long while, but the more i thought about it i felt agnostic was a better fit if trying to sum up my beliefs in a single word. if i were to describe what my moral compass is id say its "thinking unselfishly", but its nice to wander on occasion.