The Religion Thread

[Havelock Vetenari]

Intellectually i'm a dedicated atheist, emotionally i sometimes give in to some pleas for supernatural help.
Usually directed at either Gaia or Ra and to do with the weather.
For organised religion i have this handy meme :

 

[Krazy]

" Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can’t see them.”

 

[waxdab23]

Exactly my point.
So, the Qur'an and the Torah contradict each other.
It really doesn't matter what this or that expert thinks, or said.

Edit: I never said I knew which son he took, I'm not a scholar, I only said that that there was a disagreement, and I quoted the Torah to prove that.

I think you missed one part...

There was a book (Qur'an) revealed after the Bible that confirmed all that was in it and the Torah, as well as what was removed from them. The Qur'an is free from defects and has not been altered or had anything removed from it since the time it was divinely inspired upon Muhammad thousands of years ago.

Removed by man, that is.

 

[mestizo]

I think you missed one part...



Removed by man, that is.

Funny how Ishmael was never mentioned again after Abraham dismissed him, and his mother because of Sarah's jealousy, but Issac and his descendants are the ones spoken in the Bible.
We have a problem here, because both books claim divine inspiration, clearly someone's lying.
I see you are in So. Cal. Have you ever stopped at the Santa Monica promenade and spoken to a man there by the name of Louis? he has an open microphone for questions, and you don't have to agree with him, but there's no denial that he is well prepared to answer all those claims made by muslims about the Qur'an being free from error, etc.
I noticed that when a muslim approaches the microphone one of the first things Louis asks is if they are Sunni or Shiite and some don't want to answer, why? because just like in Christianity Muslims have disagreements that they consider matters of life and dead.

 

[Farid]

ared to answer all those claims made by muslims about the Qur'an being free from error, etc.
I noticed that when a muslim approaches the microphone one of the first things Louis asks is if they are Sunni or Shiite and some don't want to answer, why? because just like in Christianity Muslims have disagreements that they consider matters of life and dead.

If they're American, they probably pray at the same Mosque, so whether they are Sunni or Shia is sort of irrelevant. Not to mention there are lots of Muslims who do not identify as either. My family is Sunni, but I do not identify as Sunni because I dislike sectarianism.

Even though Sunnis and Shias disagree about interpretation of the Koran, they both think that it is free of errors. The disagreements between Sunnis and Shias come from the years after Mohammad. They still agree on the core tenants of the religion, they read the same Koran. It is the supplemental teachings by leaders in both Sects which have created divides. Shias have their own books written by Shia Imams. Likewise Sunni Imams and scholars publish their own interpretations. Within the sects there are smaller schools of thought, and between all of these groups there is varying interpretations of Islamic law. They still agree on the Koran, however.

The supplemental Hadiths, which are often cited by extremists, are descriptions of the prophets life which have been compiled over the years. They are not part of the Koran, and there is lots of debate about how they should be interpreted. Salafists insist that since the prophet was a model Muslim, all Muslims should attempt to live exactly as he did. Now I am not very religious, but I think that is hogwash, since Mohammad didn't want to be worshiped (hence no drawing him), and trying to live exactly like he did is borderline worship IMO.

 

[mestizo]

If they're American, they probably pray at the same Mosque, so whether they are Sunni or Shia is sort of irrelevant. Not to mention there are lots of Muslims who do not identify as either. My family is Sunni, but I do not identify as Sunni because I dislike sectarianism.

Even though Sunnis and Shias disagree about interpretation of the Koran, they both think that it is free of errors. The disagreements between Sunnis and Shias come from the years after Mohammad. They still agree on the core tenants of the religion, they read the same Koran. It is the supplemental teachings by leaders in both Sects which have created divides. Shias have their own books written by Shia Imams. Likewise Sunni Imams and scholars publish their own interpretations. Within the sects there are smaller schools of thought, and between all of these groups there is varying interpretations of Islamic law. They still agree on the Koran, however.

The supplemental Hadiths, which are often cited by extremists, are descriptions of the prophets life which have been compiled over the years. They are not part of the Koran, and there is lots of debate about how they should be interpreted. Salafists insist that since the prophet was a model Muslim, all Muslims should attempt to live exactly as he did. Now I am not very religious, but I think that is hogwash, since Mohammad didn't want to be worshiped (hence no drawing him), and trying to live exactly like he did is borderline worship IMO.

Then that begs the question, why can't they get along in the Middle East?

 

[gangababa]

I decided to move this response from the WTF Is Wrong With America And Gun Control? thread because the reply is more religious than political.

...
By the way, did you know Mary personally?

Within the Vedic model and reincarnation, I may have. But that would be irrelevant.
Also, every birth brings forgetfulness of the past life. This is God's blessing so one need not carry the guilt of countless previous failures along with the new.

If each time and in each role, actors stepped on stage still wrapped in the previous characters' costumes, thoughts, emotions, expectations- life would be quite disturbed.

Further, the Vedic model says the same ONE is the inside awareness of everyone, such that the same actor plays all of the roles simultaneously; and also perfectly from the point of view of the audience (same Limitless-Existent-Awareness).

 

[gangababa]

Knowing that "the same ONE is the inside awareness of everyone, such that the same actor plays all of the roles simultaneously", Jesus taught inclusion not exclusion, love not hate, accepting not rejecting, forgiving, not judging, more...

 

[CarolKing]

Franklin Graham is the son of Billy Graham. I used to sit with my mom and watch Bilky Graham on TV. As an adult I thought Billy Graham was a pretty good guy even though I'm not a person that goes to church. I've read where presidents have gone to him for council. He never acted partisan in any way. He's elderly now and you don't see him. He's well into his 90s. I don't think he's dead yet?

Well his son has taken over the ministry. Franklin Graham is no Billy Graham. This guy is urging his followers to vote for Donald Trump. How can any religious figures say that Trump is the best person to vote for. I'm assuming it's the abortion issue. Democrats are the party that wants to clothes and feed the poor. I don't think Jesus would vote for Trump.

Far as I'm concerned Trump's the anti Christ. This could have gone in the political thread but I chose this one.

 

[BD9]

Billy Graham is still alive, but in poor health. He is/was also a registered Democrat. But he was part of the Dixiecrats and not what we see as today's Democrats. I believe he at one point supported segregation, but later favored integration.

 

[Concupiscient]

Where can we agree to start?

The beginning is always a good place, but what shall we name it for discussion purposes?

 

[gangababa]

Where can we agree to start?

The beginning is always a good place, but what shall we name it for discussion purposes?

The beginning is always named now.
Start at the beginning with the Knower of now.

 

[waxdab23]

Where can we agree to start?

The beginning is always a good place, but what shall we name it for discussion purposes?

The beginning is always named now.
Start at the beginning with the Knower of now.

Who's on first.

 

[farscaper]

 

[Concupiscient]

For discussion purposes: can we agree the knower is not the "object" known?

Who could also be on second ...

 

[Krazy]

For discussion purposes: can we agree the knower is not the "object" known?

That eliminates entire epistemologies.

 

[Concupiscient]

@Krazy - Why?

 

[syrupy]

For discussion purposes: can we agree the knower is not the "object" known?

Who could also be on second ...

Any knower that is perceived by the senses is an object in consciousness. The true knower... can't be seen, just as the eyeball sees everything but itself. Also I've heard it referred to as "pure subjectivity".

Who is it that asks who's on base?

 

[macbill]

Who is it that asks who's on base?

Abbot and Costello used this comedy routine (Who's on First?) in movies, radio, and TV.

 

[gangababa]

The "who's on first" meme is great comedy in the art of great performers.
Circular reasoning and mistakes of mischievous minds, memories and meanings bring confusion and comedy.
This I am told.

I am only the brain/heart/memory/firmware of this temporal body.
I was not before birth.
I will end with the body.
Or I will go on without this body.
I have been told this and many things else.
I only know ABCDE, because others said so.

How can I know the truth of A or B when memories of even this body/life are lacking.
I know I am and I know I have never known otherwise.
"I" absence can not be cognized by this 'I" presence.

Although dreamless deep sleep is known to us all; and to all no memories are set, we never assume our existence was gone, nada, not there, nothing, no one.
I am however, the only "ONE" with direct non-negateable knowledge of "I".

We are all seemingly the Subject center of our 'known to us' universe.
All else and other is Object of our knowledge.
We seem to live in the intersecting sets of Self and not-self.

The "who's on first" meme also points to the deepest impulse of the religious sentiment in human kind.
Who is this "I", now up to bat, and what is this playing field, and what are the rules, and 'who is on first?', because we have the innate need, the instinct to want to "know".

The inside center of every person, named "I", is self-evident, known to that one without possibility of negation. This known "I" is existent, conscious, and of a third nature that is too terrible to contemplate at this time.

The comic joke is that the "person" has been building a wrapper of desires from time immemorial, and of memories stored only in the givenature (sic) of the body. The cosmic punchline comes in piercing the perceived limitations of personhood as center of his/er known universe.

The laugh track is the sound track to the 'too terrible to contemplate' truth of unlimited conscious being.
The answer to the mystery of life as people ask is, "It was all a joke on you."
We laugh when we get it.
And then you win the Oscar for the greatest impersonation of a limited human being by a Devata.

As "I", the "who is on first" question can only be answered, "I am".
When that "I" makes like a tree and gets out of here, left behind is the empty costume of a role.
The actor is on to other things, so to speak, off to other bases.
If the actor is the limitlessness, often called God, there can not be any off side playing.
What is outside of the boundless, limitless, endless, infinite?

Who's on first? The limitless is.
When there is no 'there' there anywhere outside of, before, after or within the all-in-all (like a mobius strip), then all our beliefs that "I" am in time and space rather than the reverse, are baseless.

 

[herbivore21]

Deuteronomy 21:15-17:"If a man have two wives, one beloved and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hash, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hash: for he is the beginning of the strength; the right of the firstborn is his."

Man I wanna inherit that which he hash. Just any hash really.

 

[FreakinA]

Quick summary: Had a profound spiritual connection 44 years ago that 3 months later literally opened a prison door and I escaped. And so began an intimate relationship that can only be described as overwhelming love that I could physically feel. I wasn't in a church and never went into one until around 4 years later. But because it sounded like Christianity and a personal relationship with Jesus I assumed it was. The intimacy slowly faded to a whisper as I melded with the church. Eventually I stopped going completely but still maintained my faith though faint. Well last May out of the blue I was swept back into the loving arms. What I can say for sure is that God is pure love and it really doesn't matter what beliefs you hold. That people in all faiths have genuine relationships with a loving god. All the rituals you can do but they are unnecessary. Since May I have and am walking in an intimacy with my father that is always present. The love is so strong that I weep for hours while my body is in sheer ecstasy. Yes I know this is completely out there, but I will say that religions do the exact opposite. They do not ultimately draw you into intimacy but instead are a constant accuser that shame. They are feeding stations for the Tree of Knowledge. You think it's life and it is a brilliant counterfeit but you will never realize the goal of intimacy. Jesus was right and his teachings are true but there's a lot that was added to make it an ultimate lie. The Church itself is actually the Antichrist. They are guilty of all the very things written. Mortal wound? Jesus Name on forehead? Jesus. (The church through the ages many times forced compliance on penalty of death if people wouldn't profess that faith) The person that is also the Antichrist probably already existed but there's debate there. The false prophet is actually the bible. The canonization was essentially the golden calf and it is the by far most popular idol being worshiped today. It is what gives authority to the Antichrist and from which they get their power.
Don't get me wrong though. I truly love Jesus and God with all my heart. Religions time is near it's end and everyone will be able to experience intimacy with God if they want it. Love God and each other. That's it.
And no, i'm not high and this isn't just musings but I post it here and i don't know why.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Such sport! Got over a few silly ideas and religion finally made sense.

First silly idea - we can know something, anything about God. Agnostics + 1.

Second silly idea - we don't really die. Obvious wish fulfillment.

Third silly idea - God loves us, or even notices us. Search for "God does not love us back." Surprisingly few hits. The world's major religions are founded on the premise that God loves us. What a silly idea! The creator of the universe cares deeply for a few billion talking apes crawling around on a speck of dust somewhere? Problem of evil: solved.

Of course, we can still love God. For the brief time that we exist, we can join in the universal song of praise.

 

[gangababa]

Man I wanna inherit that which he hash. Just any hash really.

That Deuteronomy 21:15-17 verse is harsh. You hash the power to break the rules but you must give twice your hash for amends; kind of explains the whole karmic order.
Who's on first is obviously a touchy subject with God.

 

[herbivore21]

That Deuteronomy 21:15-17 verse is harsh. You hash the power to break the rules but you must give twice your hash for amends; kind of explains the whole karmic order.
Who's on first is obviously a touchy subject with God.

Oh man no doubt, I only want the hash contained in that misquoted version of said verse