The NEWS !!

[RUDE BOY]

I would like to see an outcome that somehow benefits all involved and ends the system of segregation and inequity that has existed since 1948 when the rest of the worlds Governments Overlooked the God given rights of the Palestinian Population and gave their land to an otherwise unwanted and displaced peoples (the Jews).

My point exactly, if the Palestinians had the army and fire power of Israel they would blow Israel off the map on day one. Is that an outcome you would prefer??

You do have to remember that from around 500BC until 1948AD there was no "Israel" to blow off the map.

The Nation now Called "Israel" IS Actually A Very old country NAMED PALESTINE so yes to blowing at least the name Israel and the present system of government off the map and returning it to Palestine,That would work for me.

 

[grokit]

This didn't start with rockets afaik, the excuse was the kidnapped isrealis right?

 

[macbill]

Meanwhile, its just plain folk trying to get through the day that are getting killed, while political factions on both sides shout recriminations, rumors and rhetoric.

@grokit
This didn't start with rockets afaik, the excuse was the kidnapped isrealis right?

Were not the isrealis kidnapped because of new settlements announced in the occupied lands? To me, it seems like an endless cycle...

 

[grokit]

I thought it was some asshat palestinean kids that did it? As if it matters, the situation is totally fucked at this point. It seems that hamas' strategy is to hide in bunkers underneath hospitals and other "unbombable" targets, shooting rockets and sacrificing their own people just to highlight the brutality of their oppressors in the world media. It's a disgusting strategy that has to be viewed through the lens of their desperation.


edit: here's the other side of the coin from the salon article I posted:

“Hamas was perfectly well aware of what would happen if they started raining rockets in Israel,” Clinton said. “They fired a thousand of them. And they have a strategy designed to force Israel to kill their own civilians so that the rest of the world will condemn them.”


edit2: here's the flipside to the flipside (as of today):

"Palestinian health officials reported at least 65 people killed as air and artillery strikes echoed across the city for hours. They put the number of displaced at 35,000, with at least 425 people killed in the nearly two-week conflict."

 

[Been Vapin]

Chronological Timeline of Events Leading to Escalation in the Middle East
http://www.dw.de/escalation-in-the-middle-east-a-chronology/a-17776058

Something like 1800 missiles fired into Israel. Last night one of the feeds you could actaully see outgoing Hama's rockets being launched.

 

[Farid]

This issue is something that I've always been very passionate about, so I tried to stay out of this thread...

But when I see people blaming Hamas for firing rockets, and using that as justification for targeting civilians, I can't help but post. Where do you think Hamas gets people to fill its ranks? People who have lost children or wives or parents. People who have had pre teen brothers disappear into Israeli prisons only to come back changed forever.

Look up Doron Zahavi, and what he did to prisoners during interrogations. He's considered a hero in Israel. To me that's worse than treating suicide bombers as martyrs or heroes.

 

[RUDE BOY]

The Israeli claim that Hamas' uses human shields is just propaganda to deflect the fact that they (Israel) are killing people in a densely populated urban area that neither Palestinian civilians or Freedom fighters can leave.

This is David with three stones(palestine) vs Goliath with modern mainly united states made weapons platforms (Israel). What's really disgusting is that most seem to side with the faction(Israel) that cares so little about human life they can justify taking away the basic human rights like property, food and clean water, freedom is a word we throw around but is in reality something taken away from the Palestinian peoples 66 years ago. And for what reason? to give their land to other people no one else in the world wanted to assimilate into their own population, Back then (1940s) they were out-of-sight-out-of-mind tucked away in the desert.

Oh and isn't it just so nice of them to make sure there is phone service in Gaza when they are going to bomb your house so they can call you and tell you to leave, otherwise most of the time you don't need a phone when you want one.

It's all the little Shit that matters, Starve and mistreat a few million people for nearly 60 years and expect them to believe your just like them. How self centered can you be.
So yeah IF a tunnel that brings in things like fresh vegetables and meat and consumer goods also may export the fight for Freedom. So be it.

 

[grokit]

Yep, totally fucked. And it's like so many other conflicts, 99% of everyone has their mind made up and cannot see the others' point of view. And so it goes, forever. If not there, then somewhere else.
​

 

[cybrguy]

There is no way to see it as anything but fucked. Both sides are guilty of atrocities and both sides are guilty of not making the necessary effort to end the insanity. Neither side can do anything to end it by themselves. People may want to blame one side or the other and put all the onus on them, and you can't, at least not honestly. Honest negotiations always fail in relatively short order. And that failure may generate from either side in any given negotiation.

One thing is for certain. Israel will not sit idly by while Hamas rains down rockets on them. That is a truism no matter who you support. If there is to be ANY hope for peace, the Palestinian people must stop Hamas from filling the air with missiles.

 

[Chill Dude]

One thing is for certain. Israel will not sit idly by while Hamas rains down rockets on them. That is a truism no matter who you support. If there is to be ANY hope for peace, the Palestinian people must stop Hamas from filling the air with missiles.

Yeah, I agree, but easier said than done. Fuck Hamas and all their followers!!

 

[tuk]

@tuk Just so I'm clear here who started shooting into who's territory first?

Palestine was stolen by the British & given to the Jews as a present.

Palestine was invaded by a foreign power and given away to another foreign power who then proceeded to dominate and treat the Palis like 2nd class citizens in their own country......thus the conflict was born.

In case my answer is not clear...the Jews attacked first.

Basically, you don't throw a rock at someone, get hit back then say you are defending yourself.

It's a convincing soundbite but unfortunately it has little to do with the facts, 3 kids found dead in Israel murdered by unknown people, Israel( frothing at the mouth ) automatically blames Hamas & publicly issues violent threats towards the entire Palestinian nation while performing military sweeps of Pali neighbourhoods during the night & randomly arresting people ....thats when the rockets started.

.....Israelis decided to go ground and pound the Palestinians out of boredom?

More likely because they are murdering cunts.
---------------------

Big deal being made of these Hamas rockets ..remind me again how many Israelis have been killed by these rockets since the 3 dead kids showed up?

There is no way to see it as anything but fucked. Both sides are guilty of atrocities and both sides are guilty of not making the necessary effort to end the insanity. Neither side can do anything to end it by themselves. People may want to blame one side or the other and put all the onus on them, and you can't, at least not honestly. Honest negotiations always fail in relatively short order. And that failure may generate from either side in any given negotiation.

One thing is for certain. Israel will not sit idly by while Hamas rains down rockets on them. That is a truism no matter who you support. If there is to be ANY hope for peace, the Palestinian people must stop Hamas from filling the air with missiles.

The first paragraph seems pretty balanced & fair on the face of it, but you're attempting to paint a picture depicting both parties on an equal footing which is a 100% falsehood ....the second paragraph has less camouflage & is blatantly pro-Israel.

Your Bold: No hope for peace until the Palis bend over and succumb to Israeli land grabbing and general domination?

 

[Chill Dude]

the second paragraph is blatantly pro-Israel.

Bold: No hope for peace until the Palis bend over and succumb to Israeli land grabbing and general domination?

And your posts aren't blatantly pro Palestine lol.

 

[tuk]

And your posts aren't blatantly pro Palestine lol.

Can you quote a part of my post which is biased or not based on facts?
--------------------

I think some people need to stop watching the news and first learn about history....& btw the speaker is Jewish:

 

[Farid]

I've heard the pro Israel rhetoric a million times, it's a circular argument that is based on half truths and selective memory of recent history.

The fact is this started after 3 kids went missing, and Hamas was instantly blamed. Evidence was stalled from being released, and all allegations were denied by Hamas officials. Israeli fundamentalists responded to the deaths by throwing protests and killing a Palestinian boy in cold blood. The hysteria stopped a proper investigation, as Palestinians were outraged by the murder and started protesting and some insurgents began shooting rockets into Israel from hidden sites throughout Gaza.

My take is that Hamas is firing rockets because Israel will always treat them as guilty until proven innocent. Even in cases such as the missing teens, where there is little evidence that suggests Hamas was involved, the United States and the rest of the world accepts whatever version of the "truth" that's in Israel's best interest.

Even during times of "peace" Israel uses collective punishment against civilians. A group of Palestinians kids is seen throwing rocks is used as justification for arresting all Palestinian boys in a neighbourhood between a certain age range.

I won't accept for a minute that this is a tit for tat type of conflict. Israel does not even try to negotiate with the Palestinians. The Egyptian government does not represent Palestinian interests. The Arab league does not represent Palestinian interests. So any "peace deal" that was concocted between those entities and Israel is irrelevant (other than being a good source of fuel for zionist rhetoric).

EDIT: You could actually argue this conflict started before the boys went missing, and that it started when Hamas and the PA made peace, and Netanyahu vowed that the people of Palestine would pay for their decision. That was either a direct threat of what is happening now, or incredibly coincidental, don't you think?

 

[cybrguy]

Thank you, Tuk. There is nothing I could have said to better extend or amplify my point. There will be no peace between Israel and the Palestinians as long as people who think like you think have influence in the region. There will only be more sadness and death.

 

[Farid]

So you're saying as long as there are no pro Palestinians or no moderates in the region, there will be no peace? Cause Tuk is either of the two, I'd go with the second, compared to most in the region. How do you suppose we end this conflict? Israel refuses a one state solution with equal rights for non Jews.

I disagree, I think that this conflict has been exacerbated by moderates not wanting to speak their mind. And I think they don't want to speak their mind because, as you just so perfectly illustrated, when a moderate like Tuk speaks out, they are personally attacked. Thats why this issue is so personal for so many people that are not directly involved.

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

All the human watch groups are wrong, the UN is wrong, the international community is wrong. Israel with its large military, iron dome, US made missiles, the +$3B/year in funding from US is at constant risk because of Hamas and their super high tech bottle rockets.

Anyone who sits there and blabbers about how both sides have committed atrocities and tries to make it equal is living in a fantasy world. I just automatically assume they dont know what they are talking about. The only way to do that is to devalue Palestinian life.

UN Votes:
http://www.un.org/en/ga/68/resolutions.shtml

Most UN general assembly votes are somewhere around 167 vs 7, wonder who those 7 countries are? Guess the whole world is wrong

Interesting debate by two PhD scholars:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...osecuted-for-war-crimes-over-settlements.html
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/communitys-consensus-committing.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

Amesty Internation is wrong too:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories
http://rt.com/news/172232-israel-gaza-amnesty-war-crimes/

The UN being wrong again:
http://rt.com/news/172188-israel-operation-international-law/

These authors are all lying too:
Israeli Author:
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
Son of Israeli General:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Generals-...d_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1TK38A1S1RNMH9K5VY74
Former US President Jimmy Carter:
http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Pea...d_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1TK38A1S1RNMH9K5VY74
Noam Chomsky:
http://www.amazon.com/Gaza-Crisis-Reflections-Israels-Palestinians/dp/1608460975/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405898469&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keywords=nom chomsky israel
Both of his parents were Holocaust survivors:
http://www.amazon.com/Image-Reality-Israel-Palestine-Conflict-Revised/dp/1859844421/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405898684&sr=1-3&keywords=norman finkelstein
Acounts of a Jewish woman's visit to the West Bank:
http://www.amazon.com/Witness-Palestine-American-Occupied-Territories/dp/1594513074/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405899067&sr=8-1&keywords=witness in palestine

 

[lwien]

In case my answer is not clear...the Jews attacked first.

I have a suggestion. Why not say, "The Israelis attacked first". Referring to race or religion, in my opinion, is a bit out of bounds. And btw, I'd say the exact same thing if someone said, "The Arabs attacked first" or "The Islamists attacked first."

Race and religion just casts too wide of a net.

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

I have a suggestion. Why not say, "The Israelis attacked first". Referring to race or religion, in my opinion, is a bit out of bounds. And btw, I'd say the exact same thing if someone said, "The Arabs attacked first" or "The Islamists attacked first."

Race and religion just casts too wide of a net.

I totally agree it is not good to use labels like that, it undermines the legitimate point he is trying to make. Plenty of Jewish and Israeli people against the occupation

 

[Chill Dude]

Can you quote a part of my post which is biased or not based on facts?

Yes, basically all of them. For example, you said that the reason The Jews sent in ground troops was because "they're murdering cunts" if that's not biased I don't know what is hahaha....

If that's how you feel, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but to use such a vile statement then have the audacity to claim you're unbiased and neutral on this conflict is laughable..

You're obviously pro Palestine why not just state that as a fact?

 

[Farid]

I have a suggestion. Why not say, "The Israelis attacked first". Referring to race or religion, in my opinion, is a bit out of bounds. And btw, I'd say the exact same thing if someone said, "The Arabs attacked first" or "The Islamists attacked first." Race and religion just casts too wide of a net.

But who speaks up when someone says something Islamophobic. Go back a few pages and you'll see Caligula suggest bringing bacon to a Mosque. I'm not religious, so I don't think it's in my place to care, but whenever I hear people get upset about antisemitism regarding this conflict I scratch my head.

For one because Israel is an abhorrently racist state.

And because Arabs are semetic too. They're just not jewish.

 

[lwien]

I totally agree it is not good to use labels like that, it undermines the legitimate point he is trying to make. Plenty of Jewish and Israeli people against the occupation

I'm a Jew and I'm against the occupation. And while I am TOTALLY against Hamas lobbing thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Israel, to me, it is an understandable reaction if I put myself into the shoes of a Palestinian. They are literally living in an overcrowded jail. When Israeli forces tell them to evacuate their homes due to an impending attack, where in the hell are they supposed to evacuate to? It is the most densely populated area on earth. If I had my brother or sister or father or mother killed while living under such deplorable conditions, I may be one of those lobbing those rockets myself.

If you take away a mans dignity, most will fight to the death to get it back.

And that's what Isreal needs to do. They need to help the Palestinians get their dignity back and until they do that, this conflict will never end. If anyone should understand this, it's the Israelis. You don't get your dignity back by taking it from someone else. You get it back by giving it to someone else.

 

[grokit]

Palestine was stolen by the British & given to the Jews as a present.

Not to defend zionism or anything, but...
What about masada, the romans, and the crusades?
Either everybody's right, or everybody's wrong. I vote for the latter.

 

[RUDE BOY]

^^^^ The Land of Palestine sure has a long rocky and Bloody History !

 

[olivianewtonjohn]

Not to defend zionism or anything, but...
What about masada, the romans, and the crusades?
Either everybody's right, or everybody's wrong. I vote for the latter.

When did those events occur? Are there actively people living under occupation and apartheid? Are these relatively recent events? Have standards and international law changed since then?

Alittle context to your black and white logic would be great.

Same response I give when people talk about how should all Americans go back to where they came from and leave the indigenous people their land.....1945 was not that long ago; alittle different than 1492