The MMA Discussion Dojo
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SA - I've only fought in boxing and kickboxing matcher (where elbows to the face were illegal) It's an awesome feeling being in there but my competitive career was during a time period where my cardio was poor. I'm not saying I'm a BJ Penn when it comes to talent, but I never put two and two together that I really needed cardio back in my competition days. I grew up watching Tyson and figured if you couldn't blow out your opponent, you didn't deserve to win - young and dumb, LOL. I just wish I had my knowledge now with my physical attributes back then, but that's pretty much what we all say when we get older right? Don't really have any great tales about myself per se, but there is one funny story. In one kickboxing match I was all set to come out to "punks jump up to get beat down" by Brand Nubian (they took the rocky theme and made it with hip hop beats) and when I came out, they played "Flight of the Valkyrie" I was so embarrased but what can you do, if you win the fight people forget about it, if you lose, they will bring up the wack song. Luckily I won that one....phew!
GSP dominated thru and thru but what about Jon Jones?! That could is a beast! Did anyone notice that throw he did while grabbing Bonner's neck? Let's not forget the spinning elbow that made Bonner drop face first and the German suplex?!?!? this kid is amazing but props to Bonner for not quitting, if it were a 5 rounder, he could've taken Jones into deep waters.Undo
GSP dominated thru and thru but what about Jon Jones?! That could is a beast! Did anyone notice that throw he did while grabbing Bonner's neck? Let's not forget the spinning elbow that made Bonner drop face first and the German suplex?!?!? this kid is amazing but props to Bonner for not quitting, if it were a 5 rounder, he could've taken Jones into deep waters.Undo
SpiralArchitect
? & beyond
Flight of the Valkyrie???? 
Oh man... sorry, but that is funny shit... that is like the last song I would want playing during an intro.
I'm blasting that Nubian song now... never heard it before. I like oldschool rap.
Oh man... sorry, but that is funny shit... that is like the last song I would want playing during an intro.I'm blasting that Nubian song now... never heard it before. I like oldschool rap.
yea jon jones is def a beast, but would that spinnin elbow be illegal cuz it did hit bonner squarly in the back of the head? i was just wondering, not taking anything away from jones, i cant wait to see him again with another tough guy, possibly a rich franklin? he def has to get better cardio if hes up against Ace. bonner looked like a shadow of his former self, whether it was cuz jones was that good, or bonner had a bad night, we will just have to wait for his next fight to find out. i like how dana said in his blog that bonner has nothing to worry about, hes not going anywhere.
. he also said that serra said GSP felt greasy as well. this is really becoming a joke.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
Just watched 'Best of 2008' (WEC) on the tube last night. Wow several outstanding fights. What the heck is wrong with Jens Pulver? (other than ugly) Seems you could hit him with a ball bat and he would not stop. The Torres? fight against the Judo Boy? (who lost because of a closed eye) was a wild one too. Kept me up way past bed-time.
No pay-per-view around here, so I try not to read this thread. Better fun watching and not knowing.
No pay-per-view around here, so I try not to read this thread. Better fun watching and not knowing.
Purple-Days
Well-Known Member
No it was on Spike, only way I know. Hmmm, download? Hadn't thought to look at them that way.
PD - Miguel Torres is a BEAST - 135 lbs of ass kicking machine. Maeda put up a good fight but man, that eye was TORE UP!
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Nothing against GSP because his diversity of strikes, game planning, training, and cardio were better than Penn's but anyone who has ever rolled with someone who had any type of lubricant on their body will understand how drastic of an effect that can have on a fight.
If you notice how easy GSP was able to pass BJ's guard, as well as his rubber guard. Not saying that this was the defining factor, but if you have grease on your body, it's pretty much a given that you can't sweep your opponent as easily, or even hold him down to prevent further damage from the top. Penn's guard is notoriously difficult to pass, and either GSP is just THAT GOOD, or the the grease from his back transferred to the back of BJ's calves, and BJ coudn't get the proper friction to hold him down.
Again, I'm in the camp that believes that GSP is the superior fighter but to say that the Vaseline did not play a role is pretty ridiculous to me. It's the same reason why watching girls in bikinis drenched in oil is so fun to watch wrestle each other, they just slip and slide and slip some more. With two guys as technical as GSP and Penn, without the proper friction to help the leverage their moves, a fighter who relies on ground defense will be at a considerable disadvantage
At least BJ didn't come out to Flight of Valkyrie
_____________________________________
Nothing against GSP because his diversity of strikes, game planning, training, and cardio were better than Penn's but anyone who has ever rolled with someone who had any type of lubricant on their body will understand how drastic of an effect that can have on a fight.
If you notice how easy GSP was able to pass BJ's guard, as well as his rubber guard. Not saying that this was the defining factor, but if you have grease on your body, it's pretty much a given that you can't sweep your opponent as easily, or even hold him down to prevent further damage from the top. Penn's guard is notoriously difficult to pass, and either GSP is just THAT GOOD, or the the grease from his back transferred to the back of BJ's calves, and BJ coudn't get the proper friction to hold him down.
Again, I'm in the camp that believes that GSP is the superior fighter but to say that the Vaseline did not play a role is pretty ridiculous to me. It's the same reason why watching girls in bikinis drenched in oil is so fun to watch wrestle each other, they just slip and slide and slip some more. With two guys as technical as GSP and Penn, without the proper friction to help the leverage their moves, a fighter who relies on ground defense will be at a considerable disadvantage
At least BJ didn't come out to Flight of Valkyrie
djelimon
Well-Known Member
Well, he made it look easy, true.
I dunno... in no gi grappling grappling (with t-shirts, nevermind topless) friction doesn't play nearly as big a roll in my experience, especially after the first couple minutes. In fact one thing I found in the switch from gi to no gi (with shirts) was instead of thinking in handles, you had to think in hooks for just that reason.
That said, when I saw the fight, and gifs of GSP passing, I saw some food for thought:
He always had a overhook or two around the back of BJ's neck when in his guard.
Whenever BJ tried to hook a shoulder with a leg, he would immediately move his shoulder out of range by hauling in the neck, like a plum, but horizantal. Normally when people try to hall themselves out of guard they get swept because they give up the base, but in this case with one leg up already, BJ gave up the sweep. he picked his moment well. Then he'd punish BJ as he tried to recover position.
To me that looked like good technique with good sensitivity and a fatiguing BJ. Now if BJ had landed the hook and then it miraculously slid off, okay, I'd be like "grease?", but the hook never caught.
When he escaped the rubber guard, well, the neck is pretty the weak compared to the arms. For example, one bearhug escape that's served me well against wrestlers up to a certain hit involves pushing against the head. Most newbies get armbarred doing it, but most newbies don't know what to look out for. The rubber escapes I saw all had GSP pushing off the head. Kind of reminded me of this GJJ escape from a headlock I learned once.
Now, if gsp's head just slipped out as soon as he pulled up, again, okay, grease may be the word. But I saw mechanical force behind the movement, not slipping.
Now, I dunno if these are the same things you saw, maybe we're talking about different moments in the fight, but I'd say GSP had taken on a series of counters and counter strategies tailor made for BJ's arsenal in an MMA context.
OTOH I've never been in the octagon, so my opinion is just that at, the end of the day.
And the idea about burning out the shoulders... sheer genius. Bit of a gamesman, that GSP.
Hi guys, just saying hello, Im a MMA fan too... got 20+yrs training behind me too.. but Ive put on weight since we had a wee baby! .. More street orientated myself , any dog brother fans out there? My background was Karate... dont laugh! but Ive always crosstrained .... Bit of a fanatic in my 20s and 30s but not training so much now im in my mid 40s.. my own style is based upon muai thai, BJJ western boxing and Wrestling.
Id like to thank Peter Constadine and Geoff Thompson for opening my eyes
All my hundreds of instructors and my friends and companions on the way...
but Ive always crosstrained .... Bit of a fanatic in my 20s and 30s but not training so much now im in my mid 40s.. my own style is based upon muai thai, BJJ western boxing and Wrestling.Id like to thank Peter Constadine and Geoff Thompson for opening my eyes
All my hundreds of instructors and my friends and companions on the way...
djelimon
Well-Known Member
Dog brothers? I like what I've read about them. Met a guy from Cali who hung with them and from what he told me they're super nice and respect each other which is necessary when you're bashing people with sticks . I definitely agree that going through harder contact gives you attributes and skills you don't get otherwise. Still, do those fencing masks offer protection from concussion? How do the old bones hold up? I was also wondering if they formally blow absorption methods/skills, or is it left to the student to learn how to deal?
Once you've been hit it becomes a priority to avoid a repetition! 
But the competitions are more suitable for experienced players. though of course they have newbie matches..
Although Ive trained and fought with various groups we dont have a DB camp in Ireland [registered trademark] The sticks are not hard wood but Rattan, more flexible and hardy. Its not a sport for the faint-hearted and you can use your choice of protective equipment. The rational behind their use of light weight gloves and head armour is to prevent the 'tank syndrome' whereby heavily armoured fighters just shrug off serious blows and the fights start to resemble pillow fights! The masks are there to protect eyes and disfiguring injuries.As a musician I prefer good hand protection, but that reduces mobility as well, another point worth mentioning.
As a traveller Ive trained in numerous dojos and gyms in lots of different countries. only twice have I come across dojos that had a egocentric vibe, if you see what I mean. the rest were/are overwhelmingly friendly, welcoming and respectful.
But the competitions are more suitable for experienced players. though of course they have newbie matches..
Although Ive trained and fought with various groups we dont have a DB camp in Ireland [registered trademark] The sticks are not hard wood but Rattan, more flexible and hardy. Its not a sport for the faint-hearted and you can use your choice of protective equipment. The rational behind their use of light weight gloves and head armour is to prevent the 'tank syndrome' whereby heavily armoured fighters just shrug off serious blows and the fights start to resemble pillow fights! The masks are there to protect eyes and disfiguring injuries.As a musician I prefer good hand protection, but that reduces mobility as well, another point worth mentioning.
As a traveller Ive trained in numerous dojos and gyms in lots of different countries. only twice have I come across dojos that had a egocentric vibe, if you see what I mean. the rest were/are overwhelmingly friendly, welcoming and respectful.
Woh! that was pretty damn obviously a breach of regs... dude thats fuckin cheatin! I know all too well what its like to roll with the sweat making every hold difficult.. let alone Vaseline!!! you see 1.33 where yer man puts a load of Vaseline in his pocket! so as to be able to surreptitiously access and apply.!
The level and conditioning of these guys is awesome, any little thing to get an edge has a big impact. That was out of order, its clearly in the public domain now, that is evidence we can all see.
The level and conditioning of these guys is awesome, any little thing to get an edge has a big impact. That was out of order, its clearly in the public domain now, that is evidence we can all see.
while ill agree the vasline played some impact, it wasn't used after the second round. phil nurse was told to put it away, which is what he did in the video, into his pocket. penn is making it worse then it is. gsp would have one either way. penn couldn't establish his rubber guard in round 1 when there was no vaseline. he had it for posisbly 20 seconds and gsp broke it.
Im not convinced, did you see the amount he had in his hand? did you see the way he tried to cover it with his other hand? that was dripping that wasnt a gram, 1/2 a gramm, that was a feckin dollop!
I agree that GSP would likely have won, but that is entirely beyond the point, its the principle of it... The regs state "face alone" why? because vaseline changes the game entirely! If 1 fighter has vasaline then so should the other. It changes the game considerably, if both fighters know that certain techniques are not going to work, then they wont use them. the game plan is developed over time considering all relevant points. I think its outrageous, its cheating.
Now I will say one thing, the ref should have either stopped the fight[highly unlikely considering the money involved}, or penalised GSP, or allowed BJP to apply vasaline. Those are the only conceivable responses to that. Now he didnt, the match was faught out with one fighter having an illigal advantage. re -match without doubt. If the ref doesnt control the fighters and the match, who does? the corner men?! the promoter sitting in his plush seat? the sponsers? no. In the ring there are 2 fighters and a ref. ...The ref made a bad call, it happens, the fighters need to respect his decision... but it should never be allowed to happen again. The fight should be annulled. gsp should be stripped of his title.
In the ring any fighter can win, it only takes a lucky hit, or an unlucky slip... especially at that level. You cant say 'oh bj would have won anyway!' thats bull. sorry but it is. If you have spent any time on the matts no-gi, you should know that .
I agree that GSP would likely have won, but that is entirely beyond the point, its the principle of it... The regs state "face alone" why? because vaseline changes the game entirely! If 1 fighter has vasaline then so should the other. It changes the game considerably, if both fighters know that certain techniques are not going to work, then they wont use them. the game plan is developed over time considering all relevant points. I think its outrageous, its cheating.
Now I will say one thing, the ref should have either stopped the fight[highly unlikely considering the money involved}, or penalised GSP, or allowed BJP to apply vasaline. Those are the only conceivable responses to that. Now he didnt, the match was faught out with one fighter having an illigal advantage. re -match without doubt. If the ref doesnt control the fighters and the match, who does? the corner men?! the promoter sitting in his plush seat? the sponsers? no. In the ring there are 2 fighters and a ref. ...The ref made a bad call, it happens, the fighters need to respect his decision... but it should never be allowed to happen again. The fight should be annulled. gsp should be stripped of his title.
In the ring any fighter can win, it only takes a lucky hit, or an unlucky slip... especially at that level. You cant say 'oh bj would have won anyway!' thats bull. sorry but it is. If you have spent any time on the matts no-gi, you should know that .
djelimon
Well-Known Member
Yeah, when your body gets that kind of pain it starts to find ways to escape and you do movements you never would have thought of. In my old school sometimes the instructor would bust out a stick or whip and we'd have to dodge that while fighting each other, or get hit and pick up a nice welt/bruise or two for that reason.
I'd agree but there are meat-heads out there, I've come across a couple.
Whats more, the psycological edge would be enourmous, its all in the psycology . To know, he must have know, you would have a psycological edge knowing you had this trick, and knowing that he doesnt know!,
Also, when you vasaline a fighters face you place a small, small amount on the back your left glove, you carefully apply this to certain specific areas. the brow mainly. Too much and it gets in the fighters face when they sweat. . The quantity that he had in his hand ! on that clip, IMO clearly trying to hide it! There is no way that was a genuine mistake. You think they dont know the rules and regulations pertaining to this highly competative, major, International, bout!?! No ,they greased him up, and he won the fight because of it. Both the physical and psycological advantage would be overwhelming. Maybe he could have won without it, that remains to be seen, if GSP ever fights again.
Also, when you vasaline a fighters face you place a small, small amount on the back your left glove, you carefully apply this to certain specific areas. the brow mainly. Too much and it gets in the fighters face when they sweat. . The quantity that he had in his hand ! on that clip, IMO clearly trying to hide it! There is no way that was a genuine mistake. You think they dont know the rules and regulations pertaining to this highly competative, major, International, bout!?! No ,they greased him up, and he won the fight because of it. Both the physical and psycological advantage would be overwhelming. Maybe he could have won without it, that remains to be seen, if GSP ever fights again.
Wince... sounds painfull..djelimon said:
True enough, but few and far between, I spent my first 10yrs training, in Karate and I never met one running a dojo. I trained in every martial art I could, travelling and training for 20 odd years and I could count the number on three fingers!... :-) I wont name and shame...They were, with 3 exceptions kind and considerate gentlemen. But they were mostly also really hard Instructors!
djelimon
Well-Known Member
Sounds worse than it is. It's all about the breathing and relaxation. That and maneuvering your partner/opponent between you and the guy with the stick.
A legit instructor is usually pretty disciplined and most also have values, but I did briefly share dojo space with one guy who would try 2nd hand judo/jujutsu moves on his unsuspecting karate students attacking cooperatively, put one kid in hospital. Turned out he was sleeping with a couple students too. The other clubs in the dojo were appalled of course. I remember him referring to street fights as 'budo situations'.
Another fellow once told his students to attack anyone on the street wearing the t-shirt of another club, because of some guy in the same style in a different country said he wasn't happy with his affiliate's seminar. Scary thing was his people were prepared to do it, and one, a bouncer, actually did. Didn't really work out for him, mind you. Then the instructor ironically lost a couple students that he sent over to the other club for a bit of 'dojo-storming' (quotes because this isn't really JMA) so he left off. But it's scary that a guy can run a gang like that. I mean I could never see any of my instructors asking me o do something like that, and if they did, I'd just walk no matter what kind of rank they offered.
Then there was this one bunch that would train you if you were already fitter than average or knew how to fight, but otherwise would lock you into a 1 year contract, and then just beat on you until you dropped out. Legalized mugging really.
I don't think it has to do with the arts themselves necessarily, but some do let the rank and titles and student admiration get to their heads.
Most instructors are just trying to add value to their students lives, I agree, just as most people are basically decent if you give them half a chance.
Maybe that kind of thing does happen, all I speak of is from my own experience.
To reiterate:
I agree that GSP would likely have won, but that is entirely beyond the point, its the principle of it... The regs state "face alone" why? because vaseline changes the game entirely! If 1 fighter has vasaline then so should the other. It changes the game considerably, if both fighters know that certain techniques are not going to work, then they wont use them. the game plan is developed over time considering all relevant points. I think its outrageous, its cheating.
Now I will say one thing, the ref should have either stopped the fight[highly unlikely considering the money involved}, or penalised GSP, or allowed BJP to apply vasaline. Those are the only conceivable responses to that. Now he didnt, the match was faught out with one fighter having an illigal advantage. re -match without doubt. If the ref doesnt control the fighters and the match, who does? the corner men?! the promoter sitting in his plush seat? the sponsers? no. In the ring there are 2 fighters and a ref. ...The ref made a bad call, it happens, the fighters need to respect his decision... but it should never be allowed to happen again. The fight should be annulled. gsp should be stripped of his title.
In the ring any fighter can win, it only takes a lucky hit, or an unlucky slip... especially at that level. You cant say 'oh bj would have won anyway!' thats bull. sorry but it is. If you have spent any time on the matts no-gi, you should know that .
Whats more, the psycological edge would be enourmous, its all in the psycology . To know, he must have know, you would have a psycological edge knowing you had this trick, and knowing that he doesnt know!,Also, when you vasaline a fighters face you place a small, amount on the back your left glove, you carefully apply this to certain specific areas. the brow mainly. Too much and it gets in the fighters face when they sweat. . The quantity that he had in his hand ! on that clip, IMO clearly trying to hide it! There is no way that was a genuine mistake. You think they dont know the rules and regulations pertaining to this highly competative, major, International, bout!?! No ,they greased him up, and he won the fight because of it. Both the physical and psycological advantage would be overwhelming. Maybe he could have won without it, that remains to be seen, if GSP ever fights again.
To reiterate:
Im not convinced, did you see the amount he had in his hand? did you see the way he tried to cover it with his other hand? that was dripping that wasnt a gram, 1/2 a gramm, that was a feckin dollop!
I agree that GSP would likely have won, but that is entirely beyond the point, its the principle of it... The regs state "face alone" why? because vaseline changes the game entirely! If 1 fighter has vasaline then so should the other. It changes the game considerably, if both fighters know that certain techniques are not going to work, then they wont use them. the game plan is developed over time considering all relevant points. I think its outrageous, its cheating.
Now I will say one thing, the ref should have either stopped the fight[highly unlikely considering the money involved}, or penalised GSP, or allowed BJP to apply vasaline. Those are the only conceivable responses to that. Now he didnt, the match was faught out with one fighter having an illigal advantage. re -match without doubt. If the ref doesnt control the fighters and the match, who does? the corner men?! the promoter sitting in his plush seat? the sponsers? no. In the ring there are 2 fighters and a ref. ...The ref made a bad call, it happens, the fighters need to respect his decision... but it should never be allowed to happen again. The fight should be annulled. gsp should be stripped of his title.
In the ring any fighter can win, it only takes a lucky hit, or an unlucky slip... especially at that level. You cant say 'oh bj would have won anyway!' thats bull. sorry but it is. If you have spent any time on the matts no-gi, you should know that .
Whats more, the psycological edge would be enourmous, its all in the psycology . To know, he must have know, you would have a psycological edge knowing you had this trick, and knowing that he doesnt know!,Also, when you vasaline a fighters face you place a small, amount on the back your left glove, you carefully apply this to certain specific areas. the brow mainly. Too much and it gets in the fighters face when they sweat. . The quantity that he had in his hand ! on that clip, IMO clearly trying to hide it! There is no way that was a genuine mistake. You think they dont know the rules and regulations pertaining to this highly competative, major, International, bout!?! No ,they greased him up, and he won the fight because of it. Both the physical and psycological advantage would be overwhelming. Maybe he could have won without it, that remains to be seen, if GSP ever fights again.