the Michael Brown thread

[KidFated.]

I realize that, but how many times was he shot? How many bullets can one take and still be a threat? He wasn't raging on drugs, so he definitely felt the bullets.

Btw, not looking for an argument, just discussion.

 

[Newcastle]

Was his drug level known at that moment..... Officer Wilson had a large man attack him. What would you do in that situation....not what would you do different...you were not there you don't know how you would react with the adrenaline. There is reality and perception. Reality is he attacked an armed cop and lost the fight. Perception is a cop shot a poor unarmed young man.

 

[Gonzo]

According to the evidence he was taken down by the last shot to the top of the head as he was heading back in the direction of the officer.

 

[Madcap79]

He also said his face was pretty swollen from the altercation yet in the photos of him I see no swelling? Look at the full length picture of him. Do you see any any evidence that he was badly beaten? I'm not saying Brown didn't reach for the gun, only the officer knows that for sure, but to say he was badly beaten seems like a lie from the evidence I've seen.

 

[Gonzo]

I don't see where he said he was"badly beaten". If you have a link to that I would like to read it.

I'm also not going by what the officer said, I'm going by the physical evidence that was released by the medical examination and location of blood at the scene.

 

[Madcap79]

Ok not badly beaten, I stand corrected, but he did say his face was swollen and bruised. I don't see any indication of that. What I see in the pictures looks like rug burns.

Here is a link to the transcripts.

Darren Wilson's Testimony Released
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/11/24/darren-wilson-testimony-snippet.pdf

 

[lwien]

Straight from my booklet. FWIW

In terms of time, one can use force only for as long as the threat remains imminent (that is, until it is neutralized). If it takes 5 shots to do that, but 6 are fired, that 6th round is excessive force and does not qualify for justification as self-defense.

@Newcastle your regulations must differ, we just renewed ours as a family not too long ago.

That quote does not say, or imply, shoot to injure.

I totally agree with Newcastle on this. I have NEVER heard any instructor say, "Shoot to injure." They have all said, "IF you are going to pull the trigger, shoot to kill. If you're not prepared to do that, do not draw your weapon."

All that quote states above is that in the act of a "shoot to kill" scenario, you in fact do injure someone and in affect, neutralize the threat, any further action on your part could be viewed as excessive force.

Now granted, things may have changed since I got my permit, and they may vary from state to state, but I find it appalling that anyone would suggest that someone "shoot to injure". In real life, that could be the most dangerous thing that one can do. In a life threatening situation, can you comprehend how hard it would be to hit a target as small as an arm or leg?

 

[KidFated.]

What I meant was your not going to continue to shoot more than you need. Obviously you don't wanna aim at extremities. But you don't shoot an invader and then keep shooting until he's dead. Once you can avoid the attacker, do it?

 

[lwien]

What I meant was your not going to continue to shoot more than you need. Obviously you don't wanna aim at extremities. But you don't shoot an invader and then keep shooting until he's dead. Once you can avoid the attacker, do it?

That's not what you said, KF. What you said was:

Funny how we're taught to shoot to injure when acting in self defense in permit to carry classes here. He shot to kill. Shouldn't he know how to shoot to injure?

You shoot to neutralize the threat. That could be dead or injured to the point that the threat is no longer a threat. And I totally agree that to keep shooting once a target is neutralized IS excessive force.

 

[KidFated.]

But you can injure someone enough that they no longer are a threat.

 

[lwien]

But you can injure someone enough that they no longer are a threat.

Sure you can, as I stated above, but that is NOT something that you should "try" to do when you are engaged with someone who you believe is trying to end your life.

You said that an instructor taught you how to "shoot to injure" and I''m saying that I have never heard such a thing and if that is a law somewhere, it should be repealed and if it's not a law but just the instructor teaching you this, the instructor should be fired.

Listen up. I'm a hard core anti-NRA liberal who thinks that there are wayyyyyy too many guns on the street. But I also realize the reality of what happens when one does own a gun. If one is totally against taking someone else's life in protecting their own, they should NOT own a gun.

 

[CarolKing]

I understand that folks are frustrated and pissed off. I can't say that I know what's it's like to be black and at every turn I'm being made to feel that I'm lesser of a person than if I was white. I feel sad for all of Michael Brown's family and friends. I disagree with burning cars and businesses to prove their point. Whether or not his death was justified or not I wasn't there to see what happened.

It's too bad that a lot of innocent people are made to pay for the actions of others. What's going on now is breaking the law and these people need to be accountable. Right now a town is being destroyed and people are frightened huddled in their homes.

 

[Madcap79]

Body found in car near Canfield Dr.

Most schools closed around the city.

Estimated 24 businesses burned to the ground.

 

[KidFated.]

Sure you can, as I stated above, but that is NOT something that you should "try" to do when you are engaged with someone who you believe is trying to end your life.

You said that an instructor taught you how to "shoot to injure" and I''m saying that I have never heard such a thing and if that is a law somewhere, it should be repealed and if it's not a law but just the instructor teaching you this, the instructor should be fired.

Listen up. I'm a hard core anti-NRA liberal who thinks that there are wayyyyyy too many guns on the street. But I also realize the reality of what happens when one does own a gun. If one is totally against taking someone else's life in protecting their own, they should NOT own a gun.

I only carry guns when hunting or fishing, never have I felt I needed I carry a gun in public, and I agree about with you, partly.

 

[Newcastle]

You spent hundreds on permits for your family and don't carry? I am at Dr office with daughter in a nice neighborhood. My gun is at my side.....it's when you think you don't need one that will get you in trouble. With that said my goal is to never need it. The boy scout motto goes here. Be prepaired!

 

[Gonzo]

What I meant was your not going to continue to shoot more than you need. Obviously you don't wanna aim at extremities. But you don't shoot an invader and then keep shooting until he's dead. Once you can avoid the attacker, do it?

Once again according to the evidence, Michael Brown kept coming at him up until the last shot which was in the top of the head. According to that evidence the last shot he fired was the shot that stopped the threat.

 

[lwien]

You spent hundreds on permits for your family and don't carry? I am at Dr office with daughter in a nice neighborhood. My gun is at my side.....it's when you think you don't need one that will get you in trouble. With that said my goal is to never need it. The boy scout motto goes here. Be prepaired!

I've never felt the need to carry a gun. The only time that I would ever feel the need to do so would be if my neighborhood was blowing up like Ferguson. As a matter of fact, I never owned a gun until the LA riots occurred here and even then, it was only to protect myself in my own home.

Edit: As far as the Michael Brown thing goes, I totally get that the officer felt that his life was in danger and acted in self-defense. My question is, could the officer have been able to defuse the situation BEFORE it ever got to that point? When you confront a kid who has stolen some cigars, and the situation looks like it could get out of hand, do you escalate it by continuing your pursuit or do you say to yourself, "Ya know, here's a kid who just stole some cigars but I'm not going to allow his anger to escalate to a life threatening situation."

 

[Gonzo]

I do conceal carry most of the time. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

 

[RUDE BOY]

What I meant was your not going to continue to shoot more than you need. Obviously you don't wanna aim at extremities. But you don't shoot an invader and then keep shooting until he's dead. Once you can avoid the attacker, do it?

Your pretty well taught to shoot and "Stand Your Ground" until they stop moving, not to shoot and run away.

 

[Caligula]

I only carry guns when hunting or fishing, never have I felt I needed I carry a gun in public, and I agree about with you, partly.

I do too. I've seen bear and mountain lions out where I hike. I can tell you this, though... if a large predator came at me, and i was aremed and able to defend myself, I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to wound it. That would probably the stupidest thing I could do in that situation.

 

[MinnBobber]

.....

Edit: As far as the Michael Brown thing goes, I totally get that the officer felt that his life was in danger and acted in self-defense. My question is, could the officer have been able to defuse the situation BEFORE it ever got to that point? When you confront a kid who has stolen some cigars, and the situation looks like it could get out of hand, do you escalate it by continuing your pursuit or do you say to yourself, "Ya know, here's a kid who just stole some cigars but I'm not going to allow his anger to escalate to a life threatening situation."

hidesight is 20/20 but since he called for backup, it likely would have ended better had he followed MB in his car until backup arrived. Then he/they would have been more in control of the situation.

I'm kind of sensitive to this as 2 blocks from my home, a local cop stopped a kid for a traffic violation and and was gunned down/killed as he approached the suspect's vehicle. Now there's a guy who truly deserves a heartfelt RIP. This was just a couple months ago.
We volunteer at a gradeschool and this officer routinely came there to help with events and be a good role model to the kids. He was the longest serving officer on their force.

We can argue all we want about what happened, but who here would want to be a cop today??

 

[KidFated.]

I do too. I've seen bear and mountain lions out where I hike. I can tell you this, though... that if a large predator came at me, and i was aremed and able to defend myself, I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to wound it. That would probably the stupidest thing I could do in that situation.

If it's an animal, hell yeah. But I think a well trained police officer could've ended it without the loss of a life. 3 shots could've been enough to subdue him, with proper training, that's how I feel. Someone shot that many times should not be considered a deadly threat unless they themselves have a weapon.

 

[Madcap79]

I hope I never feel the need to have a gun on me 24/7. It would suck to live with that fear and paranoia.

 

[Gonzo]

I hope I never feel the need to have a gun on me 24/7. It would suck to live with that fear and paranoia.

I don't consider myself paranoid. I consider myself prepared. I have never used my firearm on someone, and never will unless I am put in a situation where I have to protect myself or someone else.

 

[Been Vapin]

Brazzers is on scene reporting