The Magic-Flight Launch Box (Beta)

[magicflight]

It's called trying to hit a retail price point, spooky. An on/off button not only adds to the cost, but it's also just another thing to break.

A switch is a simple, inexpensive component, so this argument is hard to buy. Of course it's difficult to say what the real reason is, since magicflight has ignored the question.. so I'll ask again:

Magic-flight,

Why is there no on/off switch or button on the device?

I'm sure other people are wondering about this as well, and I bet many sales will be lost if the product launches without such a basic feature. Especially after reading that posting describing how any metal object can randomly turn on the device inadvertently.

Hi Spooky,

Iwien had it exactly right -- 1) we want to be sure to have the whole thing cost less than $100 retail, 2) although a single switch will not by itself make the difference, making it possible to use one requires too many side effects to the design -- we just do not like the result -- wrong style. Also, there are issues of reliability (Iwien was right on in this also). For example, this thing needs to switch fairly high current (more than 5 amps) AND it must be very small. This means that "a simple switch that is reliable" is also more expensive than you might expect (think many dollars, not pennies). There are actually very few switches which would even work in this app, despite the variety of components available these days (small means low-current and high-current means large -- realistically, there is not much overlap).

Also, before you ask, using FETs and other electronic methods to get around these problems have even worse side effects on the design. Before long, you end up with just the same thing that everyone else has already. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt (again and again), and am now rather bored with all the fancy SMT silicon, plastic molded parts, and the rest of the Chinese commodity stuff (although, if you understand what I am taking about, you probably would have bothered to post the question about the switch). So let me sum up: If you want or expect our vape to look and be just like everything you already have (all the "basic features" included), it is definitely going to be a disappointment. Our true customers will be those who want a new, novel experience -- getting more and more from less and less -- by doing totally unexpected things with the same old Newtonian physics that we thought that we had totally understood a hundred years ago already.

Thus, given that Iwien (and others) had already nailed your question thoroughly, I figured that I didn't have much more to add -- hence no direct response to your prior post. I sorry if I had inadvertently offended you.

Also, bear in mind that the tone of your original post made it clear that you had already decided that you didn't like the Box. As such I figured that it was also probably not a good idea to try to convince you to do otherwise (I have other, better ways to live my life). Is is a simple fact that not everyone is going to like to Box -- that is to be expected. Rather, we would prefer people be (and respectfully become) as well informed as possible so that they can choose what they really want, even if and especially if it is NOT the Box. There is little worse than spending money on something and then hating it. Please let me save you the trouble. I would honestly rather ship to only those people who are rather likely to love it immediately and forever -- it works better that way for everyone, even if it potentially means "lots of lost sales", as you put it.

-- Magic-Flight

 

[stickstones]

You've got to love MagicFlight's attitude as a company. It's similar to Purple-Days, and is a great one for this industry. Both company's are making a product that they believe in and is clearly not for everyone, nor is it advertised as such. If you don't like it, don't buy it, and that's fine.

If you want an itty-bitty, stealthy, effective vaporizer that is portable and elegant in its design simplicity then the Box might be for you. I, personally, love so much about it...the wood smell, its effectiveness, the stealth, and the fact that it looks like something I could make on my own even though I know the engineering behind it is much more complicated than its looks let on.

As for use, it already has its niche in my collection. For walks on the beach, the Iolite is superior for me because its noise isn't a factor on the beach and I can throw it in my pocket in the middle of using it. But if my pockets are full and I still need to take a vape, the Box cant' be beat. If I want to vape in secret or quietly, such as in a bathroom or really anywhere I am not walking (this unit could probably be used while walking after much practice, but even then I think it would draw attention), then the Box is my top choice. I really can't think of anything I would change yet now that my conduction questions have been addressed. I guess the biggest question at this point for me is which attachment system Haywood likes best.

 

[stickstones]

MF...what temp is this thing designed to operate at?

 

[Purple-Days]

I like the looks of (and ideas behind) the Launch Box. Simple is better.

The switch is already there, on/off easily controlled. And in reverse position it locked off. Redesigning it to be more complicated, with amechanical switch is going the wrong direction.

This is a vape that will likely be carried in a pocket. Dust, dirt, the heat of vaping, and physical stresses are all gonna make a hard wired switch a failure point. And since it would be most convenient as a momentary contact switch, that would make it too easy to mash (turn on) while in your pocket. Like MF says, the behind the scenes parameters are something not always obvious to an outsider. Size, weight, initial cost of switch and the man hours to assemble, warranty costs...

I heard an exec spell out his success strategy."You need a unique product, you need a product that has demand, and you have to believe in your product." Sounds simple. I think the Launch Box fits all three. Go get 'em MF, I think this is the one (LB) to run with. Best of luck with it.

Just a quick question. Are you still using Birch for the hardwood? I know dowels (LT) are easy to find in Birch. As the LB doesn't need a cylindrical form, have you considered other hardwoods? Just a thought... nothing wrong with Birch if that's what you use. Red Oak is a sustainable, relatively inexpensive and nicely grained wood that is easily workable. Not trying to re-design the thing.

 

[max]

"Simple is better."

It's easy to criticize vapes for the lack of what seem to be simple features, but the longer you look at forums and the reports of failures of this and that vape due to a crapped out digital controller, or even a simple analog heat control, the more you start to appreciate a simple design. I wonder how many people have purchased one box vape over another just because it had an on/off switch, then ended up with a useless box because the switch failed. I'd much rather install an inline switch on the power cord itself. It's a simple task, and if it fails, you just unscrew it and install another, or leave it as it was designed. The LED problem on the PD is a good example. It's nice to have, and nice that if it fails it doesn't compromise performance, but covering it under warranty adds to Tom's costs, and a lot of manufacturers would raise the selling price to compensate. The other factor has already been mentioned. If you add too many features to a vape design, you can price yourself out of the market.

 

[Hennessy1414]

Just a quick question. Are you still using Birch for the hardwood? I know dowels (LT) are easy to find in Birch. As the LB doesn't need a cylindrical form, have you considered other hardwoods? Just a thought... nothing wrong with Birch if that's what you use. Red Oak is a sustainable, relatively inexpensive and nicely grained wood that is easily workable. Not trying to re-design the thing.

I find the LB to give me more 'lung butter'...possibly because of the wood used. I remember AoZ saying just drawing air thru the thing made his lungs tight and 'buttery'...I'm not as easily affected, but I think if MF used cherry wood or some other sort of less odorous wood the LB would have a better performance overall.

still I gotta hand it to this vape....it works well.

carrying batteries around is a bitch tho :/....ohh well

 

[magicflight]

MF...what temp is this thing designed to operate at?

The "science" of vaporization seems to indicate that the optimal temp for vaporization is a constant 380 Fahrenheit, so that is what we aim for in all of our designs. However, the temp in the Box is far from constant -- it changes continually depending on the rate of draw over the range of about 260 on the low end to about (when drawing too fast) to about 450 when not drawing at all (and leaving it on for minutes at a time). Therefore, what we try to do is to have the temp most easily stabilize at between 370 and 400 for a reasonable rate of draw. For the engineering, it becomes something of a game with the math using various design parameters to try to get this right. At this point, we have enough experience to 'get it right' (years of practice!).

-- Magic-Flight

 

[The_Algebraist]

Ahh, to be part of the magicflight beta testing team. You lucky ducks you all.

 

[magicflight]

Are you still using Birch for the hardwood?

Hi,

Thanks for the great feedback/recommendations! In regards to the wood, we are still using Birch -- it has certain machining characteristics that are "just right" -- not too hard or too soft. We have also tried (and rather like) Maple and Cherry, and many testers seem to love both these as well (Cherry is my all-time personal favorite!). However, certain fine subtleties of the machine process are still making these other hardwoods a little bit problematic. We hope to have these minor tooling problems solved in the next few months. Until then, its will be Birch for the first production builds with the hope that we will be able to offer Maple and Cherry fairly soon.

Other woods have also been considered (but not tried), such as Red and White Oak, Ash, Teak, Purple Heart (and other exotics), etc. At this point, the considerations are (as you point out) are 1) 'is it available?' (sustainable production), 2) 'can we process it?' (is it too 'adherent' (dulls tools), is it too hard), and 3) 'are there restrictions on its use?' (import limits, endangered, too smelly, too porous, etc). At some point, we may offer 'custom and special request' processing for particular specialty woods at an extra cost, although we have no plans for that in the short term.

-- Magic-Flight

 

[MrMistyTokes]

didnt come in the mail again, everyones gunna work out all the bugs by the time i get it

not to mention im dieing to have this,, really realllly excited to not have to go to the bathroom everytime i want to bake..

 

[Purple-Days]

I might save you some time MF. Teak may not be a good choice, it has a grit that dulls blades (expensive too). Purpleheart is pretty but a dense hardwood and may present machining difficulties (opposed to the more woodworking friendly hardwoods). Bubinga, Ebony, Pink Ivory, all beautiful, but very difficult to work. Walnut and Rosewoods come to mind in the odor catagory, both pleasant but maybe not what a user wants or expects, and of course rosewood has sustainability issues. Walnut also has shop issues, very smokey. Mahogany has shop issues too with some folks developing allergies to the dust, both breathing and dermatitis.

Your choice of Birch seems a good one though a bit plain jane (maple too). Both Red oak and Ash with their heavy grain patterns might add a bit of zip. And they are both very workable, sustainable North American hardwoods, available at reasonable cost. Shop friendly too.

 

[MrMistyTokes]

I would definetly pay extra for a nice wood like red oak

 

[spooky]

Iwien had it exactly right -- 1) we want to be sure to have the whole thing cost less than $100 retail, 2) although a single switch will not by itself make the difference, making it possible to use one requires too many side effects to the design -- we just do not like the result -- wrong style. Also, there are issues of reliability (Iwien was right on in this also). For example, this thing needs to switch fairly high current (more than 5 amps) AND it must be very small. This means that "a simple switch that is reliable" is also more expensive than you might expect (think many dollars, not pennies). There are actually very few switches which would even work in this app, despite the variety of components available these days (small means low-current and high-current means large -- realistically, there is not much overlap).
...............

thanks for answering the question magicflight... having never made a vapourizer, I haven't given much thought to the logistics of design.

I'm beginning to think maybe I've got it all wrong in thinking that a switch or button is an essential feature (yeah yeah, hypocrite, I know )... given that my current primary vape has a remote control (gotta love arizer), I guess I figured my next purchase would have a built-in grinder, vapour cooling system, self-cleaning feature, bluetooth, etc.

btw, when this product is released, are there any plans for retail distribution, or will it be sold online only?

 

[lwien]

thanks for answering the question magicflight... having never made a vapourizer, I haven't given much thought to the logistics of design.

I'm beginning to think maybe I've got it all wrong in thinking that a switch or button is an essential feature (yeah yeah, hypocrite, I know )... given that my current primary vape has a remote control (gotta love arizer), I guess I figured my next purchase would have a built-in grinder, vapour cooling system, self-cleaning feature, bluetooth, etc.

btw, when this product is released, are there any plans for retail distribution, or will it be sold online only?

SOLD....to the man in the blue suit !!!!

 

[magicflight]

thanks for answering the question magicflight...

btw, when this product is released, are there any plans for retail distribution, or will it be sold online only?

Your welcome.

In regards to your question, we have already placed a number of Launch Tube in retail stores (west coast USA, mostly) and will probably also do so again with the Box when it is ready. However, doing both store retail and online can be tricky -- more stores, more people, more relationships all mean more time trying to figure it all out and get it right. Thus it gets hard to predict in advance which places our product may end up being offered. In the interim, the most reliable bet is online via our distributor.

-- Magic-Flight

PS: I am sure someone will eventually try to offer a vape with all of those features -- it may be awhile though -- and I am fairly sure that it will be someone else

 

[magicflight]

Hi,

On re-considering the whole question of which wood to use, it occurs to me to put it to the Beta testers for vote: is the Birch "good enough" to start with, or do we need to switch to Maple or Cherry sooner rather than later? All three of these trees have parts made into common food products (Birch Beer, Maple Sugar), and so are usually considered to have very low potentially for allergen risk. However, it is best to ask if anyone knows more --

-- Magic-Flight

 

[Purple-Days]

Birch is a nice hardwood, maple and cherry too. I was suggesting Red Oak and Ash for the distinctive grain and shop their friendly nature. Maple offers no real advantages over Birch.

BTW Oak is used for dining tables and Whiskey barrels so no food conflicts. I know a wonderful source in Wisconsin for Red Oak, if you are interested. Ash is the Louisville Slugger wood, and has the least odor of just about any wood I have worked. Both well suited to your needs I believe.

 

[stickstones]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other regarding the wood. I'm happy with the Birch and don't know enough about wood to have an opinion without seeing the final product.

Tom -- would your buzz butter be good for the birch Box?

 

[Purple-Days]

Sure, for the exterior. MF might consider a food grade oil finish too. Peanut oil is pretty traditional for table grade wooden utensils. Any salad oil will penetrate and lengthen the life of the wood.

 

[gak hater]

Sure, for the exterior. MF might consider a food grade oil finish too. Peanut oil is pretty traditional for table grade wooden utensils. Any salad oil will penetrate and lengthen the life of the wood.

could that effect someone with a legume allergy???

 

[stickstones]

MF -- some comments on use after last night's run.

It was my first time loading the trench full. I actually got more hits than I wanted before I finished the bowl, so it is still loaded from last night with some remains...and they don't look brown yet. I prefer to finish my bowl, trench, etc in one sitting, so I will probably load less when using it alone. This is consistent with the user here who shared a full trench with his friend and it was enough for both of them. In addition, although I think this thing is on the efficient side already, using a half trench as opposed to a full trench contributes to my perception of efficiency.

Half my hits are invisible. Half are partially visible. If I want to get a thicker hit, I pulse my draw keeping the battery in contact the whole time. I take a little puff to get the vapor that is in the chamber and then stop, waiting for the vapor to build up again before puffing again (the intervals between puffs are about 4 to 5 seconds long). This technique is hard on the lungs as far as holding my breath between puffs, but I like the increased effect.

Regarding your use instructions (the purpose for the beta testing), my opinions are:

1 -- I would lose the talk about a swirl of vapor in the chamber. That expected visual cue alone got me thinking I wasn't using the Box correctly. I've only used it about 4 times, but I have never achieved the 'swirl', although I can see how it could be achieved. Maybe this is a more experienced technique, in which case it would be good to note that in the instructions.

2 -- You probably need something in there about the hole in the bottom and its potential use as a carb. This needs more testing, though. I started using it as a carb last night and couldn't determine any concrete results. Then it occurred to me that my water pipes with a carb have it in place after the herb, not before it in the air path. So I started trying to cover up the upper trench (which was hard to do and took two fingers) and felt like this cleared the chamber better than using the lower hole. This was helpful when using the pulse draw method described above. Covering the upper trench also insured that my draws were pulling air through the herb instead of over it, which conceptually would be a better method of vaporization.

3 -- I prefer to cover the bottom hole while waiting to draw to stop the vapor leakage.

I hope this helps some and please ask any question as needed for clarification.

 

[Purple-Days]

Since you wouldn't be ingesting the stuff... but I'm not an allergy expert.

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

Hi,

On re-considering the whole question of which wood to use, it occurs to me to put it to the Beta testers for vote: is the Birch "good enough" to start with, or do we need to switch to Maple or Cherry sooner rather than later? All three of these trees have parts made into common food products (Birch Beer, Maple Sugar), and so are usually considered to have very low potentially for allergen risk. However, it is best to ask if anyone knows more --

-- Magic-Flight

well my opinion is already well known to magic flight and those who have spoken to me in chat, but for the record, i definately vote to change woods sooner

 

[MrMistyTokes]

Hi,

On re-considering the whole question of which wood to use, it occurs to me to put it to the Beta testers for vote: is the Birch "good enough" to start with, or do we need to switch to Maple or Cherry sooner rather than later? All three of these trees have parts made into common food products (Birch Beer, Maple Sugar), and so are usually considered to have very low potentially for allergen risk. However, it is best to ask if anyone knows more --

-- Magic-Flight

Leave birch standard but make a few flashy options

 

[duh]

I had a full day w/the LB Beta and wanted to report back here. 1st, this unit had no issues, and all the batteries fit really well, regardless of brand. Also, I made a few changes in my usage.

A tiny brush from an old shaver has become the main tool for this unit. Similar to the one that ships w/the Volcano, my little black brush helps to get rid of the avb and prep for the next cycle ? this works very well and I plan on bringing the brush wherever the unit goes. My meds camera case now contains the LB Beta w/wand attachment and a brush. I could probably put batteries as well as a vial in there too.

The 2nd usage change I made besides adding the brush was to cover the end of the poles near the outtake hole w/2 tiny bits of electric tape. This change was prompted by my drawing directly on the unit and noticing heat on my lips from the poles that heat up. The electric tape seems to have mitigated this problem but I feel there must be a better solution and am now going w/the wand.

On the swirl, if you let visible vapor accumulate on a fresh trench without drawing (you?ll see the plexi fog up) and then very slowly draw w/the wand, you can make the swirl. Mists of vapor is kinda exciting to watch but still not necessary. I take a brief break between hits and did notice if you leave the unit on and it is really full of vapor, the wand starts leaking mists on its own.

On woods, I would far prefer Cherry and Maple, especially as I like to draw directly. The Birch is very functional but is a ?dirty? wood compared to some of the others. Besides, what better PD companion than a vape from the same tree?

I have to say, though, in terms of efficiency, I have been shocked on how good this little sucker goes. There have been a few comments on ?lung butter? on this thread and for me, this happens when I push the draws on the abv past the ?green zone? point and into the burnt popcorn taste area. The upside is if you want to push the meds for if you are totally remote and there is no way of getting more material or if you have the last of some special meds that you have been stretching ? you can push towards the very hot. To avoid the whole ?lung butter? thing, I stop before the abv gets dark chocolate brown and while it still has bits of army green in it, but in a pinch or if you wanted to stretch out what was in the unit and toss the abv when done, you can hit that upper range- just be prepared for a little mucous.

I am still going to buy my PD as I can see the need for a ready-at-any-time-vape but I am really glad to have this unit first. My Extreme, as good of a vape as it is, is a chore to use. Bring on the simple vapes that are made from natural materials, don?t use nasty Butane and work when you add power!