The Herbalizer

[Slightly Medicated]

really? not even the Cloud? or the ViVape? or the MiniVap? or the Volcano? +/- 5°F doesn't seem that precise to me.

Yes really. I did not really believe it until I saw it, but yes the accuracy is there. While you are drawing through the device it will stay within +/- 5°F no matter how hard or soft you pull. I have not seen another device with such a small amount of thermal mass. The 300 watt bulb can heat up and cool down fast. That and the software and position of the temperature sensor give it the the ability to cool and heat another level.

The real key here is that it if you draw very fast and then slow down the heater and everything cools down in portion to your daw to keep everything within the set temp range. This allows for accuracy during use... not just an accurate set idle temperature.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

but I know Arizer spent the better part of a year tweaking Extreme production units to get their sensor placement where they liked it.

yeah, i forgot to mention Solo and Extreme.

a robust system isn't required for temperature control ... just a $1.10 computer chip and a decent battery.

The real key here is that it if you draw very fast and then slow down the heater and everything cools down in portion to your daw to keep everything within the set temp range. This allows for accuracy during use... not just an accurate set idle temperature.

but, again, isn't this EXACTLY what the Cloud does?

 

[luchiano]

luchiano...I don't agree with your assessment of the whip/heater placement. This whip is no closer to the herb than using a SSV whip/wand system. I don't care how hot the heating element needs to get as long as the air traveling over my herbs is at the right temp, and from there they all go straight into a whip.

as best I can tell, the temp control difference is all about sensor placement and having a system robust enough to change the algorithm quickly enough to maintain the desired temp. your (luchiano) explanation of how the aromed achieves this was very helpful...thanks!

I couldn't tell you where the temp sensors are in the volcano, but I know Arizer spent the better part of a year tweaking Extreme production units to get their sensor placement where they liked it.

I don't see a problem for recreational users, but for medical users, I don't think you want so much hot air going straight into the whip. At first it may be cool, but as years go on, the whip might not be able to take the heat. Especially when using a fan, because now you are rushing hot air into the whip, and this may cause degradation faster. I don't know, but if we are still learning about how these things we are using may cause problems in the future, it's best to be safe then sorry. If you are not using the vape for medical reasons, then I guess it's not that important. Also, all the hot air with the fan can cause respiratory issues with drying out the lungs, in the long run, along with small plant fibers that may get through, and irritate the respiratory system. On this forum alone we keep hearing about this issue. Again, this is geared towards medical use, not necessarily recreational.

Like I stated, the quick change in temperature on the start up is crazy, and no vaporizer with a quality temperature control can do that, but once on, and up to temperature, the Aromed can change temperature quickly also.

What I think this vaporizer has potential to be the king at, is extracting everything all at once, much like smoking a joint. The MFLB can do this, but you don't know the temperature you're working with, and you can cause the herb to burn. With the Herbalizer, being that it can adjust the temperature so quickly, and give you a good idea what temperature you're at, you can take a hit that will have all the actives that boil at low temperatures to high temperatures, without any degradation. If they market it like that, THEN they can truly say no other vaporizer can touch theirs. That is what I want it for. Do you know how BIG that is?.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

but, again, isn't this EXACTLY what the Cloud does?

The difference is the thermal mass or thermal capacity. Here is an example. If I draw though the cloud very fast it will heat up to compensate. If I slow down though after it heats up the thermal mass is so large that it can't cool down enough to get back down to temp. So you are really getting higher temp vapor at that point.

Another good example. The idle temperature on the digital Volcano is very accurate. While it is filling a bag though the temperature can swing up and down within 30F degrees on the lower temps and 50F degrees on the upper temps. This means it averages out to roughly close to the set temperature... but in terms of extraction you are getting temperatures that vary enough to change the composition of the vapor.

the Aromed can change temperature quickly also.

The Aromed has a 50 watt bulb the ability for it to compensate for changes in draw speed is not the same. It will not be able to keep up if you draw very hard the vapor density will change/thin out if you adjust your draw speed too quickly.

I have a video of the light reacting to me blowing on it... I am working on posting it now. It gives you a really good idea of how it reacts to changes temperature.

 

[mvapes]

And how bout that bowl fella's?

 

[Stu]

Like I stated, the quick change in temperature on the start up is crazy, and no vaporizer with a quality temperature control can do that, but once on, and up to temperature, the Aromed can change temperature quickly also.

The Aromed's halogen bulb is 50w IIRC. The Herbalizer's bulb is 300w and has (guessing here) about 3x the surface area, so it doesn't cool down under the load of a heavy pull like the Aromed does. Also, the Herbalizer's temperature sensor is placed directly between the heating element and the bowl. The temp sensor on the Aromed is located behind the light bulb and therefore cannot provide as accurate of a temperature.

Any ceramic heater available today (EQ, 7th Floor products, etc...) simply cannot adjust quickly enough to compensate for the cooling that occurs during a hit, and therefore loses it's set temp quite quickly. The Cloud doesn't suffer from this, however since it doesn't have a digital temp control, you don't really know what temperature you are vaping at in the first place.

Here's a quick video I shot of the heater at work. We blew on the idle bowl to cool it enough to engage the heater (which reacted to bring the bowl back to idle temperature).

Edited to correct Aromed's bulb wattage.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

Thanks Stu! You beat me to it. I have another one with my camera I got after you left. I am working to upload that now.

And how bout that bowl fella's?

It is good. I find it works better since it is convection if you don't pack it full. It works full, but when the air can flow around all the herb you get a better extraction. '
It can hold micro hits... and it does them well Stu did some. That was just a pinch. They worked well.
It looks to hold about .3 on an average load. That was my favorite load size. It gave it the best exposure to the air.
I did stuff it full with way more and I got results. I found a .3 load was very "famillure" in terms of effects and potency.

 

[luchiano]

The Aromed's halogen bulb is 100w IIRC. The Herbalizer's bulb is 300w and has (guessing here) about 3x the surface area, so it doesn't cool down under the load of a heavy pull like the Aromed does. Also, the Herbalizer's temperature sensor is placed directly between the heating element and the bowl. The temp sensor on the Aromed is located behind the light bulb and therefore cannot provide as accurate of a temperature.

Any ceramic heater available today (EQ, 7th Floor products, etc...) simply cannot adjust quickly enough to compensate for the cooling that occurs during a hit, and therefore loses it's set temp quite quickly. The Cloud doesn't suffer from this, however since it doesn't have a digital temp control, you don't really know what temperature you are vaping at in the first place.

Here's a quick video I shot of the heater at work. We blew on the idle bowl to cool it enough to engage the heater (which reacted to bring the bowl back to idle temperature).

The Aromed bowl uses a UV free 50w bulb. It's temperature sensor is placed above the bulb, but that is because hot air rises, and by having the sensor near the incoming air that is at room temperature, it can adjust quickly to give you the temperature you dialed in. Then the screw cap keeps this air in close contact to the bulb, and it accumulates as it is shot out the heating chamber which has three holes instead of one. This keeps the air concentrated, and not cooling off quickly once it leaves the chamber. That is why it can be so precise. As long as you inhale at the rate the blinking light guides you to, you know for sure you are vaping at EXACTLY the temperature you asked for. The Herbalizer is nice, because regardless of how you inhale, the temperatures is constant. For me that isn't an issue, because I don't want to inhale hard, and dilute my vapor with excess air, but it's good to have that option for those that do.

Also, the reason why you need a 300w bulb, is because the air isn't able to stay in contact with the heater for long, and since there is no set guideline on what speed you should inhale, it has to be able to heat up fast, so 300w is going to be much better then 50w. They are both good, in their own ways, but it's not something new, as it pertains to this area of temperature accuracy, and control.

Like I stated previously, the real thing that is special is you can inhale all the actives in one hit, without any degradation, due to the herbalizer being able to handle a quick change in temperature, and let you know what temperature you're vaping around. No other vaporizer with a temperature display does this.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

That is why it can be so precise. As long as you inhale at the rate the blinking light guides you to, you know for sure you are vaping at EXACTLY the temperature you asked for. The Herbalizer is nice, because regardless of how you inhale, the temperatures is constant. For me that isn't an issue, because I don't want to inhale hard, and dilute my vapor with excess air, but it's good to have that option for those that do.

That is the issue for most people. The technique involved turns them off. They don't want to have to change the way they breath based on a blinking light. They just want to inhale at what ever rate they feel natural. So hopefully by letting the user have as intuitive as an experience as possible it will invite people who normally are turned off by technique driven vaporizers to convert.

The temperature control is also key in the ability to vaporize other herbs. I personally have always been interest in herbal medicine. I have wanted to vaporize herbs for a long time. I have tried before in many different vaporizers, but the temperature control was not there fir what I needed. They would not taste right, or I would get to much oil extracted or not enough extraction. The volcano came close to working well, but it was not quite there. It never tasted the way I thought it should. This is the first and only device I have seen that gives pleasurable results for a wide variety of herbs. The lavender I vaporized in the Herbalizer tasted better then any other vaporizer I have ever tried. It was like inhaling lavender essence. Imagine being able to vaporize some Mugwort before bed so you can have stronger more vivid dreams. For me the exciting uses for this go beyond just the cannabis aspect.

 

[luchiano]

That is the issue for most people. The technique involved turns them off. They don't want to have to change the way they breath based on a blinking light. They just want to inhale at what ever rate they feel natural. So hopefully by letting the user have as intuitive as an experience as possible it will invite people who normally are turned off by technique driven vaporizers to convert.

The temperature control is also key in the ability to vaporize other herbs. I personally have always been interest in herbal medicine. I have wanted to vaporize herbs for a long time. I have tried before in many different vaporizers, but the temperature control was not there fir what I needed. They would not taste right, or I would get to much oil extracted or not enough extraction. The volcano came close to working well, but it was not quite there. It never tasted the way I thought it should. This is the first and only device I have seen that gives pleasurable results for a wide variety of herbs. The lavender I vaporized in the Herbalizer tasted better then any other vaporizer I have ever tried. It was like inhaling lavender essence. Imagine being able to vaporize some Mugwort before bed so you can have stronger more vivid dreams. For me the exciting uses for this go beyond just the cannabis aspect.

With the Aromed, the way you inhale is nearly the same as taking a normal breath. It is calibrated to handle 3 litres of air, every 5 seconds. It's bong smokers who have a problem with it, as they are used to the firm inhale. Vaping for purity of any herb I want, and getting a wonderful flavor, is a major reason why I got an Aromed. No other vaporizer company, was talking about herbs being used in a vaporizer the way they did. Go to their site, and see for yourself.

Like I keep stating, the herbalizer is cool, but not new in some of the things they are promoting.

Here is something from the Aromed site:
Symptoms Useful plants
gastro-intestinal complaints Camomile, Cloves, Eucalyptus, Hemp, Lemon balm, Lobelia, Parsley, Peppermint, Purple coneflower, Purple sage, Sage, Thyme, Vanilla grass, White sagebrush, Wild lettuce, Wild rosemary, Willow, Yarrow
coughs, cold, and pharyngeal inflammations Basil, Camomile,Cloves, Elecampane , Eucalyptus, Ginkgo, Lavender, Lime tree, Lobelia, Mate tea, Monk’s basil, Parsley, Peppermint, Purple coneflower, Purple sage, Quebracho, Sage, Sweet vernal grass, Thyme, Vanilla grass, White sagebrush, Wild lettuce, Wild rosemary, Willow, Yarrow
kidney- and bladder complaints Ashwaganda, Damiana, Dream herb, Ginkgo, Hemp, Juniper, Parsley, Purple coneflower, Verbena, White sagebrush, Wild lettuce
insomnia Ashwaganda, Damiana, Dream herb, Ginkgo, Harmala, Hemp, Hops, Lavender, Lemon balm, Purple coneflower, Purple sage, Rauwolfia, St. John’s wort, Valerian, White sagebrush, Wild lettuce
circulatory problems Ginkgo
menstrual pains Ashwaganda, Camomile, Damiana, Ginkgo, Harmala, Hemp, Lavender, Lemon balm, Peppermint, Purple coneflower, Purple sage, Rauwolfia, Rosemary, St. John’s wort, Vanilla grass, White sagebrush, Wild rosemary, Willow
cardiac (heart) diseases Ashwaganda, Damiana, Ginkgo,Hawthorn, Lavender , Lime tree, Lobelia, Peppermint, Purple coneflower, Quebracho, Rauwolfia, Rosemary, Thyme, Wild rosemary, White sagebrush
fever Camomile, Purple coneflower, Sage, Willow
lack of energy Guarana, Mate tea, Monk’s basil, Rosemary, Tea

If you go to a particular herb, they give you a temperature to vape at to get the effects the herb is known for.

 

[mephisto]

new to this thread, but interested. I will read the WHOLE thread before I ask about a release date. If Stu and SliM are reviewing it then I will watch and learn.....

 

[Slightly Medicated]

I am not saying they are the only company that says you can use other herbs. They are also not the first people to list out effects and temperatures of various herbs. I do believe their commitment to herbs is above and beyond most other companies in this field. I am sure as time goes on they will make that commitment clear, and I will leave it up to them to discuss that on their own time.

 

[t-dub]

Enough about the Aromed . . . if it was so great you wouldn't have to regulate your draw with a blinking light and your vapor wouldn't thin out with harder hits. When SliM took his hit, it appears the Herbalizer does not suffer from this limitation. I also suspect that these guys are being way more honest with their temperature +/- than other companies as well.

 

[luchiano]

Enough about the Aromed . . . if it was so great you wouldn't have to regulate your draw with a blinking light and your vapor wouldn't thin out with harder hits. When SliM took his hit, it appears the Herbalizer does not suffer from this limitation. I also suspect that these guys are being way more honest with their temperature +/- than other companies as well.

I guess I should just go along, and not say some things they are stating isn't true, so everyone can be happy?.

The Aromed is GREAT, it was made for people who just want to be healthy, and have potent hits, not for bong smokers who like to see clouds of air. You can do that, but that isn't it's strength. It's strength is giving you the EXACT temperature you dialed in, and having a clean air source/pathway. This is why it has been used for medical patients in a clinical trial. They give you this information when you go to the website.

The blinking light is so you can reproduce your results, consistently. No thinking has to be done, other then how much you use in the bowl. A change in inhale can change the results of extraction, so if you are using the herb as a medicine, and need to be accurate in your usage, consistency is what you want. Being that it's such a soft inhale needed to achieve this, it's wonderful for the everyday user, or a medical user.

 

[vtac]

luchiano, it would be great if you wanted to post more about the Aromed in its respective thread. I don't think anyone is saying that it's not a quality vaporizer. We are saying that it can only provide an approximation of the set temperature, since its sensor is behind the bulb, and also that it can not maintain temperature during 'normal' use due to having no thermal mass, and a relatively low powered bulb.

While it's possible that the approximation can be close under perfect conditions, I think most of us are excited about the Herbalizer because it appears to be able to adjust itself to user's hit, not the other way around.

The Aromed is GREAT, it was made for people who just want to be healthy, and have potent hits, not for bong smokers who like to see clouds of air.

That's some of the cloudiest 'air' I've ever seen.

 

[Stu]

I think we have agreed that there are similarities between the Aromed and the Herbalizer in that they both use a halogen light heat source and promote the usage of a variety of herbs. But IMO the similarities end there. The Herbalizer has a lot more power under the hood, and the end user can take advantage of that power if they so choose. Just because I can inhale at a pre-defined draw speed, doesn't mean that I would always want to. If I want to take a big fat mind-numbing rip, it's nice to know that my vaporizer has that ability.

 

[luchiano]

luchiano, it would be great if you wanted to post more about the Aromed in its respective thread. I don't think anyone is saying that it's not a quality vaporizer. We are saying that it can only provide an approximation of the set temperature, since its sensor is behind the bulb, and also that it can not maintain temperature during 'normal' use.

That's some of the cloudiest 'air' I've ever seen.

You're right, I will make this my last post about the Aromed..

Again, the sensor is placed behind the bulb, so that the air can heat up fast, and give an exact temperature based on the fact that when you inhale, it will know the incoming air's temperature, the temperature you dialed in which the bulb is at, which will have the hot air rise up to the sensor, and the bulb will adjust accordingly when you inhale to give the proper temperature.. It is heating the AIR, not the fact that the air needs to be by the bulb. This is why it goes from light to dark quickly when you are inhaling. This will allow you to have the exact temperature you set in the display. Remember the bowl is not next to the bulb, but under the heating chamber, which is long enough to have time to let the air heat up.

The Herbalizer needs to have a 300w bulb, because it doesn't know the air temperature until it goes above the bulb, so it needs a lot of energy to react quickly. Plus, It doesn't have an area for the air to concentrate before it gets to the herb, like the heating chamber the Aromed has. This is why it gives you an approximate temperature of +/-5f degrees, and not the EXACT temperature. Some of the air won't have time to be fully heated.

At first, I thought the same thing as everyone in here thought about the sensor being under the bulb, but as I studied it, it made more sense to put it next to the incoming air that you inhale, so the bulb can react quickly, and give you the EXACT temperature, while still being energy efficient.

As for clouds, that is air diluting the vapor. The vapor condenses from the excess air cooling it down, and the light bouncing off of this, and giving you the illusion that it's all vapor, but it's not. This is how clouds are formed in the sky. Think about it, how can I get so many hits off of a small bowl, yet the trichomes are only 5% of the plant. It's because when you inhale a lot, more air is diluting the vapor, giving a less potent hit, not a stronger one. Once you have the exact temperature DURING your inhale, you get more high off of less clouds, as long as you inhale deeply.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

If I draw though the cloud very fast it will heat up to compensate. If I slow down though after it heats up the thermal mass is so large that it can't cool down enough to get back down to temp. So you are really getting higher temp vapor at that point.

well, here's the thing: if the Cloud uses a pulse width modulator to control the heater and the software is running the classic PID control algorithm, the thermal mass will only heat up enough to compensate for the loss of heat from the ambient air flow AND NO MORE. Unless there is a bug in the algorithm or the gains are not yet correctly selected. A vape with less thermal mass will cool faster, if you need to vape high and then vape low immediately.

Considering the massive/dense vapor delivered by the Cloud (without burning the herb) i just assumed it was running PID control software.

And 300 watts is not needed to keep up with ambient air flow. my vape has a max power of 72 watts, but once at temperature it averages 25 watts. So, 300 watts is a lot. Maybe needed to handle the high volume air pump. And certainly useful to get to vape temp in 3 seconds (whereas mine takes 25 seconds). Perhaps the extreme asymmetry between heating and cooling (i.e. heating so much faster than cooling) could be responsible for only +/- 5°F precision.

Finally, while satisfying, blowing out a cloud is pretty wasteful. All designers make their own choices, eh?

We are saying that it can only provide an approximation of the set temperature, since its sensor is behind the bulb, and also that it can not maintain temperature during 'normal' use due to having no thermal mass, and a relatively low powered bulb.

i think that is an inaccurate characterization of thermal control and the power required, i.e. 25 watts can be enough.

Once you have the exact temperature DURING your inhale, you get more high off of less clouds, as long as you inhale deeply.

yes ... works for me.

 

[VaporEyes]

The Herbalizer needs to have a 300w bulb, because it doesn't know the air temperature until it goes above the bulb, so it needs a lot of energy to react quickly. Plus, It doesn't have an area for the air to concentrate before it gets to the herb, like the heating chamber the Aromed has. This is why it gives you an approximate temperature of +/-5f degrees, and not the EXACT temperature. Some of the air won't have time to be fully heated.

At first, I thought the same thing as everyone in here thought about the sensor being under the bulb, but as I studied it, it made more sense to put it next to the incoming air that you inhale, so the bulb can react quickly, and give you the EXACT temperature, while still being energy efficient.

Doesn't the Herbalizer have multiple sensors throughout the airpath? Wouldn't more sensors = greater precision?

 

[vtac]

The Herbalizer needs to have a 300w bulb, because it doesn't know the air temperature until it goes above the bulb, so it needs a lot of energy to react quickly. Plus, It doesn't have an area for the air to concentrate before it gets to the herb, like the heating chamber the Aromed has. This is why it gives you an approximate temperature of +/-5f degrees, and not the EXACT temperature. Some of the air won't have time to be fully heated.

As for clouds, that is air diluting the vapor.

Actually the Herbalizer has a "heating chamber" that is significantly larger than the Aromed's bulb cover. I believe you're making some incorrect assumptions about a design you haven't had a chance to use or understand. All the "million dollars in engineering and NASA rocket scientists" stuff is beyond me to be honest, but I have used both the Herbalizer and Aromed and in my opinion there is a large gap in performance.

If you're saying that thick vapor is diluted and less potent, we'll just have to agree to disagree there.

i think that is an inaccurate characterization of thermal control and the power required, i.e. 25 watts can be enough.

When I said "relatively low powered" I was referring to 50W being relatively lower than 300W. Some of my favorite vapes ever use well under 50.

Doesn't the Herbalizer have multiple sensors throughout the airpath? Wouldn't more sensors = greater precision?

Don't quote me on this, but I heard that they were able to move to a single sensor in the airpath under the bowl. To me it seems that if you want to accurately measure the temperature of the air hitting your herb, putting the sensor in the air path directly under the bowl would be the best location for true accuracy.

 

[Stu]

Don't quote me on this, but I heard that they were able to move to a single sensor in the airpath under the bowl. To me it seems that if you want to accurately measure the temperature of the air hitting your herb, putting the sensor in the air path directly under the bowl would be the best location for true accuracy.

According to their website:
The temperature is monitored in-air, just below the herb chamber to guarantee an exact feedback reading. This sensor sends a signal to a powerful 32-MHz 16-bit processor that regulates and controls the bulb’s output for a precise temperature to within 5⁰F, guaranteed.

Don't quote me on this

Don't tell me what to do.




Modnote:

 

[m0sh]

Any speculation on a price range... I hope this doesn't exceed 300$
I really want this for my bedroom, its never going to leave it!

 

[natural farmer]

WOW! I was 2 pages back with my reading and I just saw the vid! Oh SliM... No comments!

This thing seems to be a monster of a vape and as sad as I am for saying this I wouldn't expect it to cost less than 500$... The reality of a capitalist world.

If I could ever get one though I would wait for version 2 and a stealthier, less kitsch and glossy look... Black/anthracite and matte?

 

[m0sh]

WOW! I was 2 pages back with my reading and I just saw the vid! Oh SliM... No comments!

This thing seems to be a monster of a vape and as sad as I am for saying this I wouldn't expect it to cost less than 500$... The reality of a capitalist world.

If I could ever get one though I would wait for version 2 and a stealthier, less kitsch and glossy look... Black/anthracite and matte?

Well then... keeping my vape setup in tact for now. /;

 

[Breathemetal]

This thing looks phenomenal