The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
The rock group Queen has asked the Trump campaign in the past not to use their song "We Are The Champions". Trump used their song again last night when he walked onto stage. He does as he pleases and worries about it afterwards. That's exactly how he will be as a prez if people allow him to be voted into office.


(Image Source: Queen)
 
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His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
Most folks would be leery of copyright infringement since defending yourself could be costly and if you lose there are the fines. Trump - he's probably got a army of lawyers as employees and/or on retainer so any legal fees are already paid for.

He should have changed 'We Are The Champions' to 'We Are The Champions at Litigation'.
 

SSVUN~YAH

You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...
i-am-so-proud-of-my-amazing-black-daughters-sasha-3099927.png
 

Serious

Liable to snap at any moment.
One possibility is the 'staffer' who penned the plagiarized lines is Trump himself or one of his close family circle.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't Trump himself. I say this with no (particular) malice, but Trump can't put together real sentences, her speech wasn't that bad.

Of course I like Michelle's part the best.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...le-obama-heres-whats-really-awful-about-this/
Ms. Trump came to America in the mid 1990s, worked as a model, married Trump in 2005, and had a son with him the following year. What is noteworthy here is that Ms. Trump appears to have lifted the very part of Ms. Obama’s speech that was about our shared values and aspirations as Americans — the devotion to the value of hard work, the idea that as Americans, there are, or should be, no limits on our aspirations and ability to realize them, provided we show the grit, ingenuity, and persistence necessary to do so. These shared values and experiences, Ms. Obama said — and Ms. Trump echoed — are precisely what bind us together, what require us to treat one another with respect, and what we’ll pass down to our children to keep the American experiment alive.

For the two women, then, this is a shared American experience.

What’s galling about this is that Donald Trump’s political career has been propelled to no small degree by an effort to deny the very legitimacy of those values and aspirations on the part of the Obamas, in service of the idea that they are basically imposters, or frauds, who don’t actually harbor the values they claim and don’t really deserve the success they’ve attained. Obviously neither of the Trumps would say this about Ms. Obama. But this is, at bottom, the subtext of Trump’s birtherism about Obama himself — which amounts to arguing that the Obamas don’t really belong in the White House, i.e., they didn’t legitimately achieve their current status.

Trump campaigned explicitly in 2012 on his birtherism. As late as last month, Trump said that he “would love to” keep talking about birtherism, but only refrains from doing so because it distracts from other issues. Obviously Trump’s support among GOP primary voters has many causes, but his original political notoriety and energy derives, at least to some extent, from his original role as the world’s most famous birther. As the New York Times recently reported, Trump explicitly “recognized an opportunity” to employ birtherism to “connect” with voters, ultimately using it to spark “his connection with the largely white Republican base that, in his 2016 campaign, helped clinch his party’s nomination.”

As Brian Beutler puts it: “Let’s not gloss over it, this is a depiction of a campaign — a campaign that nurtures white grievance and resentment — trying to profit off the work of a black woman, from an African American family that Trump and his supporters regularly belittle.”
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
With Trump rattling sabers, pretending to be Nixon and the 'law and order' candidate, there are unpleasant echoes for me of the sixties. I really can't understand how anyone could take seriously a candidate this nasty, this mendacious, and this preposterous.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
This plagiarism thing is unseemly for sure, however after reading the whole article Gunky posted a while back it seems both sides partake. Obama and Biden for instance:

"Barack Obama himself was accused of plagiarism by the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008. Here's the New York Times:

The controversy arose after Mr. Obama, of Illinois, delivered a speech at a Democratic Party dinner in Wisconsin. He responded to criticism from Mrs. Clinton, of New York, who argued that Mr. Obama might deliver smooth speeches, but that she was better prepared to solve problems.

“Don’t tell me words don’t matter,” he said in his remarks. “ ‘I have a dream.’ Just words? ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.’ Just words? ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself.’ Just words? Just speeches?”

The passage was similar to one used by [Deval] Patrick in response to similar criticism.

Obama’s vice president Joe Biden was forced to quit the 1988 presidential race after he was caught plagiarizing from British politician Neil Kinnock. As David Greenberg explained in Slate, Biden “borrow[ed] biographical facts from Kinnock that, although true about Kinnock, didn’t apply to Biden. Unlike Kinnock, Biden wasn’t the first person in his family history to attend college, as he asserted; nor were his ancestors coal miners, as he claimed when he used Kinnock’s words.”"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...plagiarizes_michelle_obama_s_2008_speech.html
 

grokit

well-worn member
This writer spells out my dilemma much better than I ever could :tup:

The entire article is well-written; I snipped a couple sections for space,
but you can click at the top or the bottom for the whole thing.


Enough of the “Us vs. Them” binary: Why I’m writing in Bernie Sanders on election day
Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump strike me as dishonest and untrustworthy, so I refuse to vote for either of them

bernie_sanders57.jpg

Bernie Sanders (Credit: Reuters/Jim Urquhart)

On Nov. 8, 2016, approximately 54 percent of all eligible U.S. voters will flex their Constitutional right to vote in the general election. In case you aren’t aware of how Americans prioritize their politics, here’s a glimpse: 74 percent of this same demographic tuned in to watch the Super Bowl last year.

Most of us were taught from kindergarten on that our government is a Democracy and that America is the freest country on Earth. Perhaps the reason so few of us vote is that the benefits of all this democratic freedom don’t always measure up to all the hype. For example, instead of having one presidential candidate to choose from – like in a dictatorship – we get two.

It’s a recipe for division if there ever was one. Pit Team A against Team B with the task of solving problems that effect all sides and just watch how little progress can be made. The greater good loses every time.

“Groupthink” – a hallmark of political parties – suppresses independent thought, creativity and dissent and encourages bias and irrational decision making in the “in-group” while any “out-group” is discounted as inferior and scorned. These aspects are intensified when only two groups are powerful enough to achieve a desired goal – in this case, winning an election – and people are forced to choose between them. The human mind shifts to binary mode when presented with only two choices, an evolutionary leftover from times when a snap judgment of “Us vs. Them” could determine our survival. The tendency nowadays is to identify with one and repudiate the other. Normally, it’s not until a third or fourth option is presented that critical thinking is engaged.

If anything ought to be grounds for critical thinking it’s the selection of our government officials who vote on our laws and decide on whether our sons and daughters are sent off to war overseas. Instead, most of us vote to promote our party’s victory or to thwart the other party’s.

-snipped for space-

In his Farewell Address, Washington referred to “The alternate domination of one faction over another …” as a “frightful despotism.” While Adams had this to say: “There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties … This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.”

More than “dislike” political parties, Jefferson held them in contempt: “If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all.”

As an independent voter, I’ve naturally grown accustomed to compromise when deciding whom to vote for. In the past, when there hasn’t been a candidate who’s inspired my support, I’ve voted for whoever seems the less likely to cause much damage, the candidate who seems most trustworthy and honest.

Since both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are dishonest and untrustworthy, I can’t, in good conscience, vote for either of them.

Instead, this election I plan to do something I haven’t done before. I plan to write-in my candidate of choice: Bernie Sanders. And I’m not alone. Millions of others fed up with divisive Establishment politics plan to do the same – if not write in Bernie Sanders, then vote for a third-party candidate.

-snipped for space-

Regardless of who’s been president over the past 30 years, median household incomes have either stagnated or steadily declined. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer as the middle class is diminishing altogether and neither Democratic or Republican incumbents seem to do a damn thing but make it worse. Should Hillary get elected, 4 of 5 presidents in the last 30 years will have been a Clinton or a Bush.

It’s no wonder that Hillary and Trump have respectively earned the highest “unfavorable” ratings of any Democratic or Republican presidential candidate in history, which might have something to do with a couple other things they have in common: a history of outright lying to the public and hundreds of millions of dollars amassed through surreptitious means.

While both parties push for unity, members who aren’t “with her” or with him are being urged to vote against the other party by voting for their party’s nominee. This twisted logic implies that at least you’ll be doing your part as a member to help your party win.

Voting for someone you dislike to block someone you despise is commonly known as choosing between “the lesser of two evils.” This phrase has seen prolific usage as of late. It’s apropos if a little misleading since I don’t think most Americans perceive either candidate as literally evil. But, for the sake of argument, let’s suppose for a minute they are.

Evil’s most prevalent, recognizable trait is a lack of empathy for others’ pain and suffering. If I had to decide if Hillary or Trump were the lesser of two evils based solely on how empathetic each comes across, I’d probably end up voting for Trump.

Many Democrats are genuinely fearful of what a Trump incumbency might mean for the future of America. But I just can’t bring myself to fear him. For one, his more ridiculous and dangerous ideas would be held in check by Congress – he is, after all, only one man. And though he’s made a sweeping array of insensitive comments mainly about certain ethnic groups and women, they were so stereotypical as to sound like drunken rants from a Southern Uncle at a down-home barbeque. Ignorant and inflammatory? Yes. Lacking in empathy? I’m not so sure.

Hillary gave an interview to Diane Sawyer in 2011 in which she joked, then gleefully guffawed about her role in the assassination of Libyan ex-Prime Minister Muammar Gaddafi. Some people take pleasure in an enemy’s death, I suppose. But the mission also entailed the deaths of dozens of innocent women and children, which Hillary surely knew about.

More recently, she was criticized for donning a $12,000 jacket while giving a speech on income inequality. A staggering 46.7 million people in the U.S. live beneath the poverty line, a family of four earning roughly $24,000 a year – twice the amount of Hillary’s jacket.

By pointing out a few times when Hillary seemed empathy-deficient I’m not implying she’s evil, only that these instances cause me to question how committed she really is to protecting and fighting for children’s and women’s rights and to alleviating poverty.

And then we have Bernie Sanders, not a nominee but still an important player who will be taking his political revolution to Philadelphia for the Democratic Convention on July 25th. He’s been fighting for the same issues since the Sixties, not vacillating once. His whole platform is built on empathy for others, on mitigating others’ suffering by working toward social justice in the realms of economy, public education, healthcare, gender and race.

By informing the public of things previously not widely understood – like the meaning of Democratic Socialism and superdelegates’ superhuman sway – he called attention to the ways corporate politics mislead and manipulate the public. In doing so, he made enemies of prominent leaders of the DNC.

-snipped for space-

Whenever we stand against something instead of for something, we’ve already been defeated by negativity. Our position, rooted in groupthink dynamics, leads to reactionary decision-making and irrationality, is always founded in fear and is thoroughly non-progressive.

I won’t hear that my decision to opt out of the lesser-of-two-evils paradigm and vote for a candidate who isn’t on the ballot means I’m casting a vote for the “other” side or throwing my vote away. This kind of party-line propaganda is a self-perpetuating cycle, one that has played an influential role in landing our great nation in the mess it’s in today. If we keep settling for what we’re given – in this case two candidates disliked by most Americans – nothing can change for the better. The progressive and patriotic move is to reverse this regressive way of thinking by refusing to vote for anyone unworthy of the Office of President.

Fear is a powerful contagion. To stop it from spreading, we must become immune. The only way to do this is to stand together against those who would divide us, believing that the American dream of “liberty and justice for all” can still be realized and that, when it is, every one of us will reap its benefits.


https://www.salon.com/2016/07/17/en...im_writing_in_bernie_sanders_on_election_day/

:myday:
 
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CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Bernie already said he was out of the race. Hillary is including some of what Bernie wanted in the Democratic platform. If Bernie wanted to continue he could have been part of the Green Party, I know nothing about them. Just off the top of my head.

Let's see who Hillary decides on as VP.

Let's make America great again from Trump. What does that mean? Is it because we have a black president? Is it because we accept gays and lesbians, now including transgendered folks? Is it to go backwards in time 50 or 60 years? I hate the term Reganesque, these rep are are labeling every rep Reaganesque.

How can they even compare the two Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump? I guess they hope people forget what Ronald Reagan was like. Its dishonoring Ronald Reagan. It's at the point of being ridiculous. Especially Jeffrey Lord Trump's yes man. I hope this screws up his career being Trump's surrogate on CNN. He is the most untrustworthy person.

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Also my family and myself are much better financially than we were 8 years ago. The republicans are so delusional I think they actually believe what they are saying.
 
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grokit

well-worn member
While policy can be confusing, jingoism seems to be working out pretty well so far for the gop :freak:

When the drumpf presidency teams up with this treasonous congress and destroys what's left of our democracy, history will wonder why the dnc thought that hillary the corrupt policy wonk could beat the demagogic master salesman coming straight from the bowels of hell when bernie could have saved the day, according to all relevant polling. When this happens, the resulting train wreck won't be by accident.

:2c::myday:
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
This plagiarism thing is unseemly for sure, however after reading the whole article Gunky posted a while back it seems both sides partake. Obama and Biden for instance:

"Barack Obama himself was accused of plagiarism by the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008. Here's the New York Times:

The controversy arose after Mr. Obama, of Illinois, delivered a speech at a Democratic Party dinner in Wisconsin. He responded to criticism from Mrs. Clinton, of New York, who argued that Mr. Obama might deliver smooth speeches, but that she was better prepared to solve problems.

“Don’t tell me words don’t matter,” he said in his remarks. “ ‘I have a dream.’ Just words? ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.’ Just words? ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself.’ Just words? Just speeches?”

The passage was similar to one used by [Deval] Patrick in response to similar criticism.

Obama’s vice president Joe Biden was forced to quit the 1988 presidential race after he was caught plagiarizing from British politician Neil Kinnock. As David Greenberg explained in Slate, Biden “borrow[ed] biographical facts from Kinnock that, although true about Kinnock, didn’t apply to Biden. Unlike Kinnock, Biden wasn’t the first person in his family history to attend college, as he asserted; nor were his ancestors coal miners, as he claimed when he used Kinnock’s words.”"

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...plagiarizes_michelle_obama_s_2008_speech.html

My issue has more to do with how the campaign has handled this snafu rather than the speech itself.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Those who take him seriously have never heard the word...mendacious....and if they did, they would probably think that it's an adjective describing a great meal.
I would like to believe that this is the case, but it is not. Many of the people who will vote for Trump are NOT stupid, or even ignorant. There may be many other names for them, but it isn't reasonable to assume they are all stupid automatically just because they chose to vote for a monster. Maybe they are monsters too. Maybe their biases don't allow them to see the monster in Trump. Maybe they are gullible or naive. Maybe they are blinded by their hate for Hillary, as some in this group seem to be. Maybe they honestly believe the country should be run by a CEO. Maybe they are misogynists. Maybe they have succumbed to the fear the Republicans are selling. Maybe they are ideologically loyal Republicans and they don't have it in them to not support the party.

I know 2 people who say they are voting for Trump. Neither are stupid. One is a very successful business person and the other is a retired Engineer. I don't agree with the reasons they claim for voting for him, but I can't say that they are not reasoned choices.
I intend to keep working on them, but the point is that folks can make the wrong choice for the right reasons. And many see the world quite differently than I do. That doesn't mean they are wrong, it just means that I THINK they are wrong.

All that being said, I think the vast majority of Trump voters just don't get it. Not all, but most. And these people can still be convinced to vote for Hillary, or to at least not vote for Trump. We still have plenty of time to do that, and I am confident that Trump will do what he can to help...

Maybe they are ideologically loyal Republicans and they don't have it in them to not support the party.
Pardon be for quoting myself, but this one is really the biggie. I would be willing to bet that there are just as many republican voting Trump for this reason than who are voting for him because they like him, probably more. This is a VERY powerful motivator in American politics and decides more elections than we would like to admit. And its a tough one to fight. For many their party affiliation is crucially important to them...
 
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Amoreena

Grown up Flower Child
... Maybe they are blinded by their hate for Hillary ...
My 90-y/o widowed mother falls in this category: blinded by hatred for Hillary and the Obamas. She admits she doesn't like Trump but will do anything to "keep Clinton from destroying our country." She's intelligent, college-educated (does the hardest crossword puzzles) and physically/mentally in good health except for the political obsession. :shrug:

Edit: I'm not sure, but think some/all of it may be loyalty to my father's Republicanism, though he's been dead 13 years. Can't imagine that if he were here, he'd be for Trump. My father put ethics above all else. But she's got Rush Limbaugh and his ilk whispering in her ear...on the radio all day and in political spam emails she reads religiously.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
My father was a loyal Republican. He supported Nixon until the day he resigned. Couldn't believe Nixon could have been what he was. There are many questions I would love to ask my Dad today, many times I would have sought his counsel if I could. He died in 91, so I never got to discuss the Clintons with him, or the coarsening of politics that was only beginning near the end of his life.

But My Father was a very humane man. Assuming he would still be a republican if he were alive today, I can't for a second imagine that he could or would support a man like Trump. My Father loved people, and even tho he lost one of his stores to the riots in 68, he never held that against the community who had lost their hero. He understood and sympathized.

I am quite certain that, even if he had to hold his nose, he would vote for Hillary, because he could never have voted for Trump.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
stasi2n-2-web.jpg
A picture of the Trump brothers and their horrific trophy. I wish the press would play up on this stuff. They have so much money which gives them the ability to shoot beautiful creatures like this. Fuck Trump and the NRA. I think this is from 2015. Two spoiled, rich assholes.

Edit
I wonder why we haven't heard more about this type of behavior? I know it's legal but is it right? No respect for beautiful living creatures like elephants or cheetahs. What the hell else have they killed? @lwien im liking your post because I appreciate the info not liking what the two brothers have done.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
stasi2n-2-web.jpg
A picture of the Trump brothers and their horrific trophy. I wish the press would play up on this stuff. They have so much money which gives them the ability to shoot beautiful creatures like this. Fuck Trump and the NRA. I think this is from 2015. Two spoiled, rich assholes.

Here's another of one of his sons who cut off and proudly displayed the tail of an elephant he just killed. WTF?!?!? :o
eOwP8az.png
 

Serious

Liable to snap at any moment.
This plagiarism thing is unseemly for sure, however after reading the whole article Gunky posted a while back it seems both sides partake. Obama and Biden for instance:

"Barack Obama himself was accused of plagiarism by the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008. Here's the New York Times:

The controversy arose after Mr. Obama, of Illinois, delivered a speech at a Democratic Party dinner in Wisconsin. He responded to criticism from Mrs. Clinton, of New York, who argued that Mr. Obama might deliver smooth speeches, but that she was better prepared to solve problems.

“Don’t tell me words don’t matter,” he said in his remarks. “ ‘I have a dream.’ Just words? ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.’ Just words? ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself.’ Just words? Just speeches?”

The passage was similar to one used by [Deval] Patrick in response to similar criticism.

This isn't a good comparison, Obama used the same phrase that a close friend of his had used in a similar situation, moreover, according to the NY Times: "Mr. Patrick said he and Mr. Obama discussed the argument in advance and he encouraged his friend to defend himself the same way he did during his race in 2006." Since you can't plagiarize someone who doesn't object, technically, it didn't even happen.

Obama also gave Patrick credit when asked, whereas the Trump campaign has yet to even admit that plagiarism took place.
 
Serious,
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