The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

yogoshio

Annoying Libertarian
I think he means two, cause it's really only me or @Joel W.

I know all of the links I have posted have been from either impartial (as impartial as one can get) like huffpo, or left-leaning, like salon.com

I have posted from a few local newspapers as well, but apparently that makes me a troll :hmm:

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN
 

macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
No amount of words are going to change someone's position at this stage. The Wash Post claims 81% of people have already made up their minds and don't expect the debates to change their opinion. The best thing we can all do is vote for the candidate of our choice. Everyone needs to vote. Que sera', sera'.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
“Donald Trump Is a Liar” Meme Catches On
by Nancy LeTourneau
September 26, 2016 9:09 AM

24949501440_8f88d1f08c_b.jpg


Donald Trump stepped over the line for many major news outlets when he chose to Rick-Roll the press and double down on the lies about his birther nonsense. All of the sudden they became more comfortable with using the “L” word about him. Now…just before the first presidential debate, the meme that “Donald Trump is a liar” seems to have caught on.

For example, there was this headline from the New York Times: “A Week of Whoppers From Donald Trump.”

Donald J. Trump has unleashed a blizzard of falsehoods, exaggerations and outright lies in the general election, peppering his speeches, interviews and Twitter posts with untruths so frequent that they can seem flighty or random — even compulsive.

However, a closer examination, over the course of a week, revealed an unmistakable pattern: Virtually all of Mr. Trump’s falsehoods directly bolstered a powerful and self-aggrandizing narrative depicting him as a heroic savior for a nation menaced from every direction. Mike Murphy, a Republican strategist, described the practice as creating “an unreality bubble that he surrounds himself with.”

The New York Times closely tracked Mr. Trump’s public statements from Sept. 15-21, and assembled a list of his 31 biggest whoppers, many of them uttered repeatedly.​

The Los Angeles Times weighed in with: “Scope of Trump’s falsehoods unprecedented for a modern presidential candidate.

Never in modern presidential politics has a major candidate made false statements as routinely as Trump has. Over and over, independent researchers have examined what the Republican nominee says and concluded it was not the truth — but “pants on fire” (PolitiFact) or “four Pinocchios” (Washington Post Fact Checker)…

PolitiFact, a Tampa Bay Times site that won a Pulitzer for its coverage of the 2008 election, has rated 70% of the Trump statements it has checked as mostly false, false or “pants on fire,” its lowest score. By contrast, 28% of Clinton’s statements earned those ratings.

“As we noted when we awarded Trump our 2015 Lie of the Year award for his portfolio of misstatements, no other politician has as many statements rated so far down the dial,” PolitiFact writer Lauren Carroll reported in June. “It’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen.”​

Politico documented “Donald Trump’s Week of Misrepresentations, Exaggerations and Half-Truths.”

We subjected every statement made by both the Republican and Democratic candidates — in speeches, in interviews and on Twitter — to our magazine’s rigorous fact-checking process. The conclusion is inescapable: Trump’s mishandling of facts and propensity for exaggeration so greatly exceed Clinton’s as to make the comparison almost ludicrous.

Though few statements match the audacity of his statement about his role in questioning Obama’s citizenship, Trump has built a cottage industry around stretching the truth. According to POLITICO’s five-day analysis, Trump averaged about one falsehood every three minutes and 15 seconds over nearly five hours of remarks.

In raw numbers, that’s 87 erroneous statements in five days.​

The Washington Post reported, “Trump’s week reveals bleak view, dubious statements in ‘alternative universe.’”

An examination by The Washington Post of one week of Trump’s speeches, tweets and interviews show a candidate who not only continues to rely heavily on thinly sourced or entirely unsubstantiated claims but also uses them to paint a strikingly bleak portrait of an impoverished America, overrun by illegal immigrants, criminals and terrorists — all designed to set up his theme that he is specially suited to ‘make America great again.’​

Josh Voorhees at Slate narrowed the list down a bit in “Hey, Lester Holt: We Made a Cheat Sheet of Trump’s Favorite Lies for You.”

To help Monday’s debate moderator Lester Holt out, below is a list of some of the most common lies Trump has told on the stump this past year, which he will likely repeat at the debate, debunked.​

Finally NBC News took a little different approach with, “A Full List of Donald Trump’s Rapidly Changing Policy Positions.”

After a year of campaigning, hundreds of interviews, stadium rallies, and press conferences, it is still difficult to glean a platform from the Republican nominee’s powerfully incoherent rhetoric and constantly evolving views.

Donald Trump changes his mind so frequently and so dramatically that a compilation of his current policies would not tell the whole story, nor would it be up to date for very long — he once offered up three different views on abortion in eight hours. By mixing facts with exaggerations and outright falsehoods in hundreds of interviews while simultaneously refusing to offer specifics — insisting that unpredictability is an advantage he’ll use to cut better deals — Trump and the Republican Party that’s nominated him are putting forward the most elusive presidential platform in modern history.

To wit: This list features 117 distinct policy shifts on 20 major issues, tracking only his reversals since he announced his candidacy on June 16, 2015.​

That all adds up to a powerful indictment of the candidate who promised to forego political correctness and “shoot straight” with American voters. Although, coming from the press – which his supporters trust even less than they do establishment politicians – it likely won’t have much impact on his base of supporters. But the question remains: Is there a market for truth in this election?

Beyond that, there is something I’d like to see the press notice as we head into the debate portion of this election season. If the standard by which Trump is judged in these debates is whether or not he is able to comport himself as “presidential,” doesn’t being a serial liar pretty much address that before we even begin?
 

lwien

Well-Known Member
The mods won't allow criticism of a poster so trolls post freely.

That's not true. I reported @utekai as well as admonished him in this thread awhile ago. He got a warning point and now he's gone.

With that being said though, I have not seen anyone here do what he did in this thread. He was obviously trolling. But, just because someone doesn't agree with you either from a candidates position or the validity of their source, doesn't automatically mean that he/she is trolling.

Case in point. I have a next door neighbor who is a diehard Trump supporter. Has been from the very beginning. He also listens to Fox news 24/7 and I am not exaggerating. I believe that Fox is an extremely right biased "news" channel. He, on the other hand, truly believes the Fox is TOTALLY unbiased but every other news outlet is and that THAT is the only reason that Fox is the only source he gets his information from.

Now I could say that he is totally blind and ignorant of the facts or.............he is doing nothing but trolling in the real world. I don't think either is true for he truly believes what he hears and sees through the filter of his perception..............as do we all.

Gunky, if you really feel that someone here is trolling, you should report him but so far, I haven't seen anyone here do any trolling other than the person that I mentioned above.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
No amount of words are going to change someone's position at this stage. The Wash Post claims 81% of people have already made up their minds and don't expect the debates to change their opinion. The best thing we can all do is vote for the candidate of our choice. Everyone needs to vote. Que sera', sera'.

Couldn't agree more ..... I've already made up my mind to vote for HRC so the debates are mostly entertainment for me. It's highly unlikely HRC or Trump will say something that would change my mind.

Last I looked the polls have HRC with a 6% lead and yet....there are many who think the debates could very well decide who the next president will be. It seems that the debates are for the 19% who are still undecided?
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
I wanna be an ambassador to somewhere. Besides a big heart wallet, I understand the other main requirement is the ability to say, "please pass the sweet and sour shrimp" in a variety of languages and inflections, while reflecting appropriate regional sensitivities and sensibilities. I'll take holland ;)

:myday:
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@grokit ,
OK, you get Holland but I'll need to visit on the Fed tab.

It is time for a change, so I'll be a new breed of ambassador, the Ambassador to Colorado.
As such I'll need new skills, like the ability to say, "please pass the cannabis infused sweet and sour shrimp" :)
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
There's a huge difference between tact and just being nasty. If a point can't be made without belittling, name calling etc,.. then maybe the point isn't valid. And yes, I need reminding of that as well.
I will readily admit I sometimes need to work on this. Some of that comes from just how consequential this all is to me. With that significance comes the fear that if it goes badly, my world could be turned upside down. And that may lead to emotional responses.

There is really no good place for emotions in politics even tho peoples emotions are exactly what Trump targets. Yet I don't think I know anyone who has no emotional connection to it all...

And, btw, most (many) of us are hoping that the Donald will spontaneously combust and actually lose voters from this debate. So we are hoping that minds are NOT completely made up.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
................................................................
@grokit ,
OK, you get Holland but I'll need to visit on the Fed tab.

It is time for a change, so I'll be a new breed of ambassador, the Ambassador to Colorado.
As such I'll need new skills, like the ability to say, "please pass the cannabis infused sweet and sour shrimp" :)

Once you establish a trade agreement between Holland and Colorado ..... if you need someone to be the Trade Czar ....... pick me, pick me, pick me!
 

BD9

Well-Known Member
I will readily admit I sometimes need to work on this. Some of that comes from just how consequential this all is to me. With that significance comes the fear that if it goes badly, my world could be turned upside down. And that may lead to emotional responses.

There is really no good place for emotions in politics even tho peoples emotions are exactly what Trump targets. Yet I don't think I know anyone who has no emotional connection to it all...

And, btw, most (many) of us are hoping that the Donald will spontaneously combust and actually lose voters from this debate. So we are hoping that minds are NOT completely made up.

You nailed it. I made a comment to a post you made that I should not have made until I gave it some more thought. It was indeed an emotional response. :ugh: Which I regret.
 

TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
Trump saw how well Obama did with a social media push and decided to do one better. The republicans have used voter suppression in the past but the turn is toward voter frustration, Almost all boards are full of "I know you are but what am I" arguing. People are wary, weary and shouted down. It's easier to give up. And that is what they (TRUMP in case I am too subtle) want. My fantasy is large turn out repudiating yellow dog journalism and nativism in a grand manor. Anything less than a mandate will be disappointing to me. I have been disappointed before and expect it to happen again.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
The Debate Could Matter More than Usual To Decide Between Unpopular Candidates
by David Atkins
September 26, 2016 4:48 AM

The conventional wisdom among statisticians and political scientists on presidential debates is that they don’t seem to matter that much, at least in the modern era. Despite the famous examples of gaffes, zingers and poor performances over the years, debates are something like less predictable political conventions: if one candidate did well, they tend to get a bounce for a few days, but then things slowly return to the statistical norm.

But this one could be different, for a variety of reasons. Donald Trump is a very unusual candidate, and many voters may be waiting to make a final judgment about him based on how he handles himself in such a high-stakes setting. The country has never watched a general election debate in which one of the candidates is a woman, which might create an unpredictable voter reaction as well. Most polls show a comparatively high percentage of voters leaning toward third party candidates for this late in the cycle, and it’s possible that many of them may decide to “come home” to either Clinton or Trump based on this debate.

But from a public opinion standpoint, by far the most unusual thing about this race is how unpopular both of the nominees are. Never before in modern electoral history have both candidates been so unpopular, with both at least 10 points underwater. For some perspective, almost every losing presidential candidate going back three decades had a positive approval rating on the eve of their defeat. For a candidate with a negative ten or fifteen point popularity rating to win the presidency would be unheard of, yet that’s almost certainly what is going to happen.

Which means that a very large number of voters who don’t like either of these candidates will be tuning into the debate in the hope of figuring out which of them they might be able to stomach more (or less):

“I feel like they are both bad choices,” said Melissa Huber, a 39-year-old day-care provider in Oklahoma. “I’m hoping that through the debate one of them will come out as a preferred option.”​

The polling bears out that this debate might seal the deal for many voters:

A new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll found that 34% of registered voters think the three presidential debates would be extremely or quite important in helping them decide whom to support for president. About 11% of voters are considered “debate persuadables”—that is, they think the debates are important and are either third-party voters or only loosely committed to either major-party candidate.

Slightly more Republicans than Democrats said the debates would be important to them, 37% to 31%. But voter groups that seem poised to pay the most attention include several that Mrs. Clinton is counting on to win. Some 49% of Hispanics, 42% of African-Americans and 39% of voters under age 35 say that the debates will be extremely or quite important to them.​

The smart money still says that voting coalitions are what they are, that most left leaners will come back into Clinton’s camp by end, and conservative Never Trumpers will, like Ted Cruz, hold their nose and come back to him. Which means, as usual, that despite all of Trump’s attempts at dividing the liberal coalition and Clinton’s attempts to siphon off educated conservative Romney voters, it will all basically come down to base turnout as usual.

But we are in uncharted territory here. This could be the year that the debate really makes the difference.
 

grokit

well-worn member
81% of people have already made up their minds and don't expect the debates to change their opinion.
So we're at the mercy of the 19% that still have no idea what to do;
they will decide our fate, and at the same time the worlds.

What could possibly go wrong?

:myday:

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@grokit ,
OK, you get Holland but I'll need to visit on the Fed tab.

It is time for a change, so I'll be a new breed of ambassador, the Ambassador to Colorado.
As such I'll need new skills, like the ability to say, "please pass the cannabis infused sweet and sour shrimp" :)
Once you establish a trade agreement between Holland and Colorado ..... if you need someone to be the Trade Czar ....... pick me, pick me, pick me!
I remembered the other key phrase (not my joke but off an old comedy album; possibly pryor):

"That's a great question. I'll ask the secretary of state, and be sure to get back to you."

:razz:
 
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cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
The Fried Synapses of the Mainstream Media
by Martin Longman
September 26, 2016 12:05 PM

Every once in a while, a journalist or blogger comes along and writes a piece that instantly becomes a resource, like a thesaurus or the Rosetta Stone, that we all keep going back to to help us be better writers or to interpret things with more precision. That’s what NYU Prof. Jay Rosen just did with his latest piece: Asymmetry between the major parties fries the circuits of the mainstream press. It’s that good, so go read it. I don’t think we’ll be able to engage in media criticism again until everyone has internalized Rosen’s basic insights. What’ll we’ll do is argue about what it all means and what might be done about it. For now, at least, Rosen owns the paradigm.

Let me make a couple of initial observations about the piece. It’s important to really understand that there’s a value to having print journalism that aspires to be non-polemical and nonpartisan. It’s also important to truly grasp that there are limitations on how good that kind of journalism can be, and that this isn’t an argument against its existence.

I’ll use an example to make my point. In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, the case for war was largely being organized out of the office of the vice-presidency, and through aligned actors who Dick Cheney had seeded throughout key departments of the administration. To cover what was happening, which included the internal debates, the intelligences assessments, the prewar planning, whether or not to go to the United Nations, how to get allies to support us at the United Nations, and much much more, it was vital that organizations like the New York Times and Washington Post have sources close to Dick Cheney.

Of course, Cheney knew this. And he knew that his team could advance a journalist’s career by giving them scoops, leaks, exclusive on-the-record interviews, choice quotes (anonymous and otherwise) right before deadline, and occasional access to Cheney himself. They also could punish reporters who gave their scoops and leaks a skeptical treatment by not repeating the favor.

In such a scenario, it was easy to boost the career of Judith Miller, make her look like a star to her editors, and use her as (to be charitable) an unwitting dupe to spread their propaganda and thereby win the internal debate within the administration, deceive Congress, the public and the United Nations.

We can pick on Judy Miller, but the greater problem was that the media are always at this kind of disadvantage when they seek to get access to political actors who want to lie. It wouldn’t serve the public interest to simply refuse to have your reporters develop sources near to the vice-president. There’s always a trade off when you have a source that is incredibly valuable and you want to report on them (and their boss) objectively.

Certainly, most reporters navigate these choppy waters better than Judith Miller did, but the problem is more systemic than particular. What breaks the model is not bad reporting but immoral leadership. After all, if some corporate source burns you, you can drop the source. But you can’t drop the vice-presidency or stop covering the case the administration is making for war.

When Prof. Rosen says that the Republican Party is frying the circuits of the mainstream press, that plays out in processes and mechanisms (like the example I’ve just provided).

Now, Rosen points out that the mainstream press operates with a worldview in which it sees itself as an impartial observer and a bit of a referee. But it also falls too easily into being a scorekeeper. I don’t know how many articles Chris Cillizza of the Washington Post has written that are nothing more than an assessment of who had a good week or a bad week in national politics. Who’s up? (Mitch McConnell). Who’s down? (Harry Reid). And if you really look at any of those pieces, they can be broken down and distilled into Cillizza’s estimation of how many voters have been swayed (in the very short term) by the antics and posturing and talking points and lies and fear-mongering of our political leaders. Was the 67th failed effort to repeal ObamaCare a net-plus or net-minus for the House Republicans and their leadership?

And this is supposed to matter even when it happens sixteen months before the next federal election.

The idea that these maneuverings might have some intrinsic and substantive merit or that they might be wholly manipulative, dishonest, and conniving? The suggestion that one side might be lying while the other appears to be on factually sound ground? There things are rarely if ever considered and they’re never emphasized. If Cillizza thinks a completely cynical move was politically successful, then that move gets a plus.

I don’t want to pick on Cillizza, though, because this phenomenon is widespread, rampant even, in print and especially on cable news. And it’s not the unavoidable kind of problem I highlighted above with covering vital but dishonest sources in high positions. It’s a totally voluntary kind of vapid and soul-deadening journalism. It serves no higher purpose than to chase clicks, and it really amounts to cheerleading cynicism and manipulation. It’s not even worth anything as analysis, as it amounts to nothing more than some political junkie’s highly subjective, data-free, estimation of the gullibility of the American people and how susceptible they are to the latest stunts. This is what happens when you jettison any effort to impose moral standards on the behavior of the people you cover.

This kind of journalism has always been crap, but it really only undergoes a circuit overload when a true asymmetry develops between the major parties in terms of how dishonest and cynical and manipulative they are behaving.

It’s one thing when there’s an approximate level of parity in how much bullshit each presidential campaign is doling out. In that case, you can get away with reporting both sides, doing a little light refereeing, and letting the (hopefully) better informed electorate sort it all out. The voters still won’t benefit from reading what a Chris Cillizza thinks they are influenced by, but they can at least see what each side has said, get a little fact-checking, and come away a little better prepared to form their own conclusions.

But, when one side goes completely over to the dark side and the other stays playing the traditional game, the effort to treat both sides equally no longer ensures fairness. This is what the New York Times was grappling with here:

All politicians bend the truth to fit their purposes, including Hillary Clinton. But Donald J. Trump has unleashed a blizzard of falsehoods, exaggerations and outright lies in the general election, peppering his speeches, interviews and Twitter posts with untruths so frequent that they can seem flighty or random — even compulsive.​

It’s okay to make that kind of observation in the opinion pages, but to report it in the news section breaks the paradigm the mainstream nonpartisan press operates in. It becomes especially problematic if you then make Trump the Winner of the Week because his lies seem to have propelled him forward in the polls.

At some point, you have to take a stand. There are other values that a nonpartisan press tries to advance than evenhandedness. They hope that people will benefit from reading news that isn’t deliberately designed to sway them to one party or the other. But that hope is based on the idea that people benefit from getting factual information, not an impartial presentation of crap designed to make their lizard brain glow.

The idea is to inform the public, and a nonpartisan press that abandons that goal might as well just chase their clicks and dollars the way the partisan press does because shareholders really have no preference.
 
cybrguy,

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
The best advice I've heard is......debate the point/position and not the person.

If you find yourself using terms that are person specific you've already lost the debate and the person's attention has shifted to being attacked instead of the position being debated.

Now .... if only I could learn this lesson myself.
 

Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
John Oliver Compares Drumpf And Clinton 'Scandals'

"We now know what John Oliver was doing while he was "off" for several weeks: he was investigating the "scandals" surrounding Hillary Clinton and Donald Drumpf.

His explanation of Hillary's e-mails is as complete and understandable as anything on television, ever. And it truly puts to shame cable news, who has literally had months to "cover" this story, but can never find more than 90 seconds to breathe innuendo and repeat talking points from Drumpf supporters.

It only takes about 20 minutes to gain a complete understanding of both candidates and their financial dealings, and that includes the jokes.

This segment is about one-one hundredth the length of time cable news spent looking at Donald Drumpf's empty podium during the primaries. Think about that.

Be sure to stay for the end, where Oliver gets rained on by raisins. No, really.

Think of it like this: Ethical failings in a politician are like raisins in a cookie ... They shouldn't be there. They disgust people. But most politicians have at least a few raisins. Hillary arguably has more raisins than average. There's probably 10 of these little f*ckers in there … But [Drumpf] is a f*cking raisin monsoon! He is ethically compromised to an almost unprecedented degree. So if you don't like raisins, I get it – they're disgusting. But unfortunately, this November, you're gonna have to swallow 10 or we're all going to be eating this sh*t for years."


 
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Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
Some of that comes from just how consequential this all is to me. With that significance comes the fear that if it goes badly, my world could be turned upside down.

At least your world right now, is right side up, for you, right now. My world is already up side down, backwards with 12 different folds.

Your words, could easily be my words, with a different view... :peace:

All of this season has hurt my personal beliefs. But it is important to me to get to the truth, wherever it leads..

We may not like the destination, but I won't sit home.
 
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CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
This has been an emotional thread for some of us and frustrating too at times. I've had to go elsewhere on FC at times myself. We are commenting about this election coming from our own prospectives and experiences in life. We live in different parts of America, Canada, Europe and elsewhere.

We just need to respect each other's opinions without lashing out in a personal manner. Stating your personal opinions backed up with reasoning and at times with facts.:2c:

Just try being married to a republican for 39+ years. There's just no reasoning with that man. :rockon: We just cancel out each other's vote each election.:bang:
 

Baron23

Well-Known Member
Just try being married to a republican for 39+ years. There's just no reasoning with that man. :rockon:

Hi Carol - do you think that he feels the same about you and your political views???

Facts matter. Opinions are just opinions.
I do not know how you do it:)
Oh Silat - neither of us are spring chicken and this sure as hell ain't our first rodeo.

Surely we both know that what constitutes fact versus opinion on political topics depends on the political leanings of the person doing the evaluation.

EVERYBODY thinks their facts are right and unassailable and that other people's facts are innuendo and opinion. Always has and will be this way.

I often think that the rarest commodity in the universe is a "fact" without controversy.

Cheers
 
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grokit

well-worn member
WIRED’s Live Blog Fact-Checks the First Presidential Debate

Officially, Clinton and Trump will be debating “America’s Direction, Securing America” and how to “Achieve Prosperity.” How those platitudes will translate into real questions the citizens of America care about is anyone’s guess. WIRED will be listening in for the candidate’s answers about cybersecurity and net neutrality, the evolution of education in America, how jobs will be affected by increasing automation, climate change and the innovation of fossil fuels, and the future of genetics (to name a few).

WIRED’s live blog will help you cut through the sound bites and political theater of the night to focus on the issues that matter most to you.

https://www.wired.com/2016/09/wireds-live-blog-fact-checks-first-presidential-debate/

:myday:
 
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