The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
I'm sorry @cybrguy - I think they 'hate' the Clinton's every bit as much as they 'hate' Obama and maybe more. I do believe in something though.....I believe when the smoke clears and Hillary is president the republicans will find that the far right fringe is no longer the tail wagging the dog. They will try and push their own more moderate policies and try and get the democrats to compromise. Lets hope the democrats are interested. I think they will be interested.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
They may. Only time will tell...
The Clinton Foundation and the Merchants of Doubt
by Nancy LeTourneau
August 30, 2016 3:50 PM

Do you remember that time when Jim Inhofe brought a snowball onto the Senate floor in February as “proof” that climate change is a hoax? He was being what we might call a “merchant of doubt.” Never mind that the scientific community has been studying the rise in global temperatures for quite a while. One snowfall in Washington raises doubts about what they’ve found.

The truth is that when scientists study things like global temperatures, they don’t assume that they need to look at the temperature of every single location on the planet every single day. Instead, they do a statistical analysis based on the number of locations/dates that prove to be significant as a way to measure the phenomenon. This is common practice in the scientific community and applies to everything from the study of climate change to political polling.

It is interesting to use this same method to study what we’ve learned lately about the Clinton Foundation. Any scientific inquiry must start with a hypothesis to test or questions to answer. In his interview on Democracy Now, Paul Glastris identified what the two questions are in this inquiry.

  1. Did Clinton Foundation donors get special access to the Secretary of State because of their donations?
  2. If they got special access, did they get anything in return for their donation?
To answer those questions from the perspective of scientific inquiry, we don’t need access to every single piece of data that it is possible to collect about the 4 years Hillary Clinton spent as Secretary of State. What we need is a statistically significant portion of that data. Tallying what that number would be is impossible because we don’t know the actual number of data points that exist (i.e., the denominator). But we can be fairly certain that when it comes to meetings/phone calls and emails, we have now gotten access to considerably more than a statistically significant number of them via the 171 emails released by Judicial Watch (in addition to what has already been released) and the 84 foundation donors studied by the Associated Press.

As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, based on a review of all of that data, what we have seen is that in every single instance, Sec. of State Clinton and her staff have consistently made the right choice. And yet, even the New York Times editorial board still insist on writing this:

Does the new batch of previously undisclosed State Department emails prove that big-money donors to the Bill, Hillary & Chelsea Clinton Foundation got special favors from Mrs. Clinton while she was secretary of state?

Not so far, but that the question arises yet again points to a need for major changes at the foundation now, before the November election.​

Can I suggest that, much as the “question” about Benghazi continues in the fevered minds of some (after even multiple Republican Congressional inquiries have produced nothing), “the question that arises yet again” is as dispositive as Inhofe’s snowball in February. We are, at this point, dealing with nothing more than merchants of doubt.

Some will suggest that the issue here is the “appearance of corruption.” But once data has been presented to disprove that appearance, it is time to stop making that accusation and move on. As Matt Yglesias points out so well today, the reason this continues is more aptly described as the “assumption of corruption” when it comes to Hillary Clinton.

The perception that Clinton is corrupt is one of her most profound handicaps as a politician. And what’s particularly crippling about it is that evidence of her corruption is so widespread exactly because everyone knows she’s corrupt.

Because people “know” that she is corrupt, every decision she makes and every relationship she has is cast in the most negative possible light.

What we’ve seen with the Clinton Foundation (as well as every other so-called “scandal” about her) fits that description of an ongoing negative feedback loop that persists outside of the actual data that is collected to disprove the allegations. That is what happens when we let the merchants of doubt continue to chip away at what we know via scientific inquiry. We can all point and laugh at Inhofe doing that with a snowball. It’s what we’ve come to expect from the science-deniers on the right. We should expect more from liberals and the major media outlets.
I believe when the smoke clears and Hillary is president the republicans will find that the far right fringe is no longer the tail wagging the dog. They will try and push their own more moderate policies and try and get the democrats to compromise.
The only way this occurs is if the Republican party rips the reins out of the hands of the extreme right. And that won't happen automatically, it only happens if "reasonable" republicans STAND UP AND MAKE IT HAPPEN. Assuming there still are any...
 
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Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
I agree here also, but will it be because of her past or more misogynistic, because she is a woman?

Reasons:
1/ She is a Dem
2/ For 25 years they have gone after the Clintons (nothing found of any consequence) and they are not going to stop. It moves their crazy base,makes them $$$ and gets them airtime
3/ Misogyny
4/ The reich wing is crazy as fuck and hates the government
6/ Why should they be reasoned? The 4th estate lets them get away with their bs.
 

Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
No surprise to me as I have been warning about the Koch 50 state strategy for years.
B
ut a good little read..


"I got a call from a friend in Washington who knows more about political polling than anyone in America. He was almost breathless with excitement.

“It’s gonna be a landslide,” he said.

“In which direction?” I joked.

“Hillary’s going to win in places we haven’t won in years – Georgia, Nevada, Arizona. She’ll take the entire West, the whole East Coast. Drumpf is sinking like a stone.”

“So do we get the Senate back?”

“You bet.”

“Sixty votes?”

“No, but a nice majority.”

“And the House?”

“We won’t win it back, but Democrats will get 14 of the 30 they need. So still a Republican majority, but far weakened.”

“And what about the states?”

He paused. “The states?”

“Will we take back the states?”

“No. The GOP will remain in control in most states.”

“So the only part of government that will change hands is the U.S. Senate, and not even by enough to overcome a filibuster?”

“Yes,” he said, as if I had taken the air out of his balloon.

“And what about all the people who’ll be voting for Drumpf?”

“What about them?” he asked, cautiously.

“After Drumpf loses, they’ll still be out there, right?”

“Of course.”

“And they’ll be madder than hell, poisoned with Drumpf’s venom. They’ll be a ready-made constituency for the next demagogue.”

“Bob?” he asked.

“What?”

“Remind me never to phone you again.”

“Sorry,” I said."


This article was originally published at RobertReich.org
 

Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
Some will suggest that the issue here is the “appearance of corruption.” But once data has been presented to disprove that appearance, it is time to stop making that accusation and move on. As Matt Yglesias points out so well today, the reason this continues is more aptly described as the “assumption of corruption” when it comes to Hillary Clinton.

The perception that Clinton is corrupt is one of her most profound handicaps as a politician. And what’s particularly crippling about it is that evidence of her corruption is so widespread exactly because everyone knows she’s corrupt.

It would be easier for me to believe this if she had not kept the data points on a private server, then delete them, then shredded those bits..while saying she handed them over while more deleted data bits trickle in.

Now, it looks like the data is skewed..Sorry.
 
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
(nothing found of any consequence)
Ohhhh really? Then why did Bill give up his AR law license, which he never decided to reinstate, and why was he disbarred by the SCOTUS? He made that deal because they had him dead to rights on perjury and subverting the legal system. Had he not done so he would have been prosecuted and formally disbarred.
 

Silat

When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind.
Ohhhh really? Then why did Bill give up his AR law license, which he never decided to reinstate, and why was he disbarred by the SCOTUS? He made that deal because they had him dead to rights on perjury and subverting the legal system. Had he not done so he would have been prosecuted and formally disbarred.

He decided not to get it back. FACT It was his choice.
Lying about sex does not offend me one bit unless it comes from a family values right wing hypocrite.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
Its not about lying about sex. He lied under oath in court. He entered into a deal with miss Lewinsky to have her lie as well to subvert the legal system. He tried to get his secretary to lie under oath for him but she refused and reported it.

So its more than lying about sex. Hell I'm with you. He can lie to the American people all he wanted, I don't care, but, the line should be drawn at perjury, corrupting and influencing witnesses, and subverting the legal system.

It was his choice but he had to do it. If he didn't what would have happened would have been terrible.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
Oh, I'm sorry. I was confused. I thought it was HILLARY Clinton who was running for President. My mistake.
 

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
Oh, I'm sorry. I was confused. I thought it was HILLARY Clinton who was running for President. My mistake.
Yes you are obviously correct. However, when @Silat comes up with his own set of facts regarding the history of the Clinton's I feel I can object to that part of his argument.
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Every single president that's been in office except for maybe Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagon and Jimmy Carter have had affairs, we just haven't heard about them until years later. Not sure if any of them received BJs in the Oval Office though.

Nixon was such a creep nobody would sleep with him except his wife. It was stupid that we heard all that we did about Bill Clinton. He was very unpopular when he left office because of the Lewinsky BJ. People have a short memory because he is well liked now.

I was just reading about the woman in George H. Bush's life other than his wife just a few days ago. People knew but didn't talk about it. It was kept on the down low as most presidents affairs in the past have been. The right was after the Clintons from day one. I suppose we will be going through it again if Hillary gets into office.
 
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
Its not about the sex, or even covering up sex publically. Its about perjury and subverting the legal system, big difference. And it was more than one BJ from Monica, they met and had some kind of sex, whatever that might be, not intercourse, like 17 times, IIRC, in the "Oral Office" according to official reports.

Edit: How do you guys feel about having Bill as "First Husband" roaming around the white house again? I mean, for me, it gives me an "icky" feeling.
 
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lwien

Well-Known Member
Nixon was such a creep nobody would sleep with him except his wife.

:lol: So true....

Every single president that's been in office except for maybe Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagon and Jimmy Carter have had affairs, we just haven't heard about them until years later.

Yup. It's like power and extra-marital affairs go hand in hand. Power is really the most powerful aphrodisiac there is, both for the ones that have the power and the ones who desire to be around it.
 

Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
I find it to be highly unlikely that all First Ladies new nothing of their hubby's flings, and even highly likely that the First Ladies resolved amicably to come to terms with it. Were there any post presidential divorces that I don't know about where x-rated Oval Office antics were given the blind eye?
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
After Trump loses, the repubs will undergo a period in the wilderness. The big problem for republican office-holders is: a lot of R voters actually like Trump. Rather a lot of them appear to be bigoted and xenophobic. A lot of them would rather gamble on some preposterous tool like Trump than go with rational people who have knowledge and experience.
 

His_Highness

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
You can equivocate any way you want but the bottom line is ... if you break a law.... you broke the law.

I don't believe that Bill Clinton should have been impeached for having sex with Monica AND I will never believe that he was entitled to lie under oath either. The same goes for any politician...two wrongs don't make a right even if your on the left.
 

grokit

well-worn member
Has any other administration had a tell-all written about it from both a fbi and a ss agent :huh:?

Crisis of Character: A White House Secret Service Officer Discloses His Firsthand Experience with Hillary, Bill, and How They Operate


Unlimited Access : An FBI Agent Inside the Clinton White House

"I guess the thing that frightened me the most was letting foreign agents see classified material if they were willing to pay off the Clintons.

"Everything – everything they say about them is true. The Clintons are ruthless. And [the media] don't know even the half of it.""


:myday:
 
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KimDracula

Well-Known Member
You can equivocate any way you want but the bottom line is ... if you break a law.... you broke the law.

I don't believe that Bill Clinton should have been impeached for having sex with Monica AND I will never believe that he was entitled to lie under oath either. The same goes for any politician...two wrongs don't make a right even if your on the left.

I find I'm not such a stickler for the rules when the spirit of the law has already been broken. It was a partisan witch-hunt that never should have been. It's hard for me to blame someone for lying about something that no one has a right to know.

We can be very weird when it comes to politicians. We want them to be smart but not too smart. We want them to be role models who don't do anything bad but we also want to have a beer with them. It's a weird nexus of celebrity and leadership.

I thought this lent some perspective on Hillary Clinton and the public's perception of her trustworthiness. If your bias against her is already heavy you can skip obviously but it's not long and doesn't try and bash Powell; just uses him as a counter-factual.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/8/30/12690444/alma-powell-clinton-foundation
 
KimDracula,
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
I find I'm not such a stickler for the rules when the spirit of the law has already been broken.
What exactly does this mean? Are you saying that once the envelope has been pressed that statuary law no longer applies? So much for equal rule under law being a cornerstone of our liberty. Please flesh out your reasoning process here.
It's hard for me to blame someone for lying about something that no one has a right to know.
He lied to the court, as an officer of that court, about alleged crimes he may have committed. He also incited other people to lie, under oath, to subvert the legal system. If you are willing to permit this then we have no further basis for conversation about a society governed by the equal rule of law. Your comments on what politicians are is a weak excuse for corrupt behavior.
 
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KimDracula

Well-Known Member
When the spirit of law is subverted and impeachment is used solely as a partisan political tool to fry a president for behavior that has nothing to do with the job, I do not then hold that president responsible for acting like a human and lying about that private embarrassing behavior.

If you are charged under an unjust drug law for your cannabis use, for example, I fully support any effort you make, including perjuring yourself, to beat the charges. This is by no means a perfect analogy but may illuminate where I'm coming from. I don't believe the initial interest and breach of your privacy was justified and so I would say you didn't have a duty to tell the truth. The court would disagree, but to hell with 'em because it's my opinion.
 
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t-dub

Vapor Sloth
When the spirit of law is subverted and impeachment is used solely as a partisan political tool to fry a president for behavior that has nothing to do with the job, I do not then hold that president responsible for acting like a human and lying about that private embarrassing behavior.
Uhh . . as I have demonstrated that's not what happened, he was guilty for serious crimes which is why he negotiated his deal . . . .

If you decide to hold your own version of history then fine. I am only here to learn.
I fully support any effort you make, including perjuring yourself
Amazing . . . so the whole swear on the Bible "to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" doesn't matter anymore depending on your agenda? Wow.
 
t-dub,

KimDracula

Well-Known Member
Laws are simply codified social contracts. If the government decides to violate it by prosecuting me for something that is my right then that contract is broken. I respect the law in theory but there are some laws that cannot be justified. I am only beholden to them because the prevailing power has its own agenda. I'm surprised you're so aghast at this.
 
KimDracula,

t-dub

Vapor Sloth
If the government decides to violate it by prosecuting me for something that is my right then that contract is broken.
Ahhhhhh . . . now I understand. So you say that the social contract between you and the government no longer exists because they offended you in some way. Thanks for clarifying that.
I respect the law in theory but there are some laws that cannot be justified. I am only beholden to them because the prevailing power has its own agenda. I'm surprised you're so aghast at this.
So you respect laws that you like but do not obey laws you don't like. Thanks, I get you now.
 
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