Switched from smoking to vaporizing. Some things are still unclear to me.

[DutchOven]

Dear community,

Last week I finally switched from smoking weed to vaporizing it. I have been smoking for almost 20 years, joints and normal cigarettes. Because some bronchitis like problems occurred, I had to stop smoking at all. After a week of not inhaling smoke, I have to say that I'm mostly stressed because of the lack of nicotine, but my breathing goes way better. Plus vaporizing weed makes me feel less stressed and even gives me a better high than smoking it. However, I would still like to have some things cleared up.

I am using a DaVinci Ascent portable vaporizer (convection/conduction hybrid) with dry herbs in the form of high quality Amnesia Haze from the local (Dutch) coffeeshop. The temperature I use is inbetween 200-215 C (392-419 F) ... (might this be too hot???)

First of all, I would like to know how the ammonia(-nitrate) level in vape is, compared to the level in combustion smoke. Is it way less? Or just about the same? Furthermore I read about benzene and hydrogen-cyanide coming along at certain temperatures. Are these levels always healthier than in normal smoke? And how much does it depend on the kind of weed you use? Are there easy ways to measure any possible toxicity? Or might there be techniques to let the toxics evaporate first, before taking a hit because of different boiling points? The first hit always seems to tastes bitter.

So yeah, questions like these. I just want some good health advice and background information, that's all. I find a lot of nonsense on the internet, mostly concerning the vaping of chemically produced THC-oil/wax/liquids. We don't do that stuff here in Holland. I'm just using pure bud in a heating device.

So, yeah. After a week I feel pretty good. Have some more energy and breathing seems to go easier. I am however, allergic to cats, dogs and certain trees in spring time. This will make it harder to determine some health changes. I just don't want to develop some long term disease, because of wrong use or something. I mean, during the first few years of smoking, everything also seems to go fine ...

Well, Thanks if anyone would like answer some of my questions. Peace, R.J.

 

[RobbIt]

Dear community,

Last week I finally switched from smoking weed to vaporizing it. I have been smoking for almost 20 years, joints and normal cigarettes. Because some bronchitis like problems occurred, I had to stop smoking at all. After a week of not inhaling smoke, I have to say that I'm mostly stressed because of the lack of nicotine, but my breathing goes way better. Plus vaporizing weed makes me feel less stressed and even gives me a better high than smoking it. However, I would still like to have some things cleared up.

I am using a DaVinci Ascent portable vaporizer (convection/conduction hybrid) with dry herbs in the form of high quality Amnesia Haze from the local (Dutch) coffeeshop. The temperature I use is inbetween 200-215 C (392-419 F) ... (might this be too hot???)

First of all, I would like to know how the ammonia(-nitrate) level in vape is, compared to the level in combustion smoke. Is it way less? Or just about the same? Furthermore I read about benzene and hydrogen-cyanide coming along at certain temperatures. Are these levels always healthier than in normal smoke? And how much does it depend on the kind of weed you use? Are there easy ways to measure any possible toxicity? Or might there be techniques to let the toxics evaporate first, before taking a hit because of different boiling points? The first hit always seems to tastes bitter.

So yeah, questions like these. I just want some good health advice and background information, that's all. I find a lot of nonsense on the internet, mostly concerning the vaping of chemically produced THC-oil/wax/liquids. We don't do that stuff here in Holland. I'm just using pure bud in a heating device.

So, yeah. After a week I feel pretty good. Have some more energy and breathing seems to go easier. I am however, allergic to cats, dogs and certain trees in spring time. This will make it harder to determine some health changes. I just don't want to develop some long term disease, because of wrong use or something. I mean, during the first few years of smoking, everything also seems to go fine ...

Well, Thanks if anyone would like answer some of my questions. Peace, R.J.

There are many reliable science based sources for the relatively sparse research on vaping. There’s simply a lot we don’t know.
sciencedirect.com and any site that is written by pulmonologists.

 

[invertedisdead]

Hydrogen cyanide comes from heating Myclobutanil, which is a nasty pesticide.

 

[Hackerman]

There is some great information here. You'll have to do some searching and reading to find what you want but the journey is half the reward.

National Center for Biotechnology Information

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I just did a super quick search. Not sure if this helps you at all.

Current Therapeutic Cannabis Controversies and Clinical Trial Design Issues - PMC

This overview covers a wide range of cannabis topics, initially examining issues in dispensaries and self-administration, plus regulatory requirements for production of cannabis-based medicines, particularly the Food and Drug Administration ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here's a few paragraph clip....

In Canada, mainstream and side stream smoke of cannabis vs. tobacco smoke were compared (Moir et al., 2008). Their cannabis sample's smoke yielded ammonia (NH3) at a rate of 720 μg per 775 mg cigarette, 20 times higher than that in tobacco smoke, possibly due to usage of synthetic nitrate fertilizers. Formaldehyde and acetaldehyde were generally less concentrated in cannabis smoke than in tobacco, but butyraldehyde titers were higher. Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons were qualitatively similar. Levels of NO, NOx, hydrogen cyanide and aromatic amines concentrations were 3–5 times higher in cannabis smoke, with potential mutagenic and carcinogenic effects. Possible genotoxicity has been posited to cannabis smoke due to acetaldehyde production and production of possible DNA-adducts (Singh et al., 2009).

Vaporization of cannabis is designed to heat to a temperature that volatilizes THC and other components with the intent to minimize combustion by-products (Figure (Figure1;1; For reviews please see Gieringer, 1996, 2001; Storz and Russo, 2003; Gieringer et al., 2004; Hazekamp et al., 2006; Bloor et al., 2008; Van der Kooy et al., 2008; Zuurman et al., 2008; Pomahacova et al., 2009).

[IMG alt="An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.
Object name is fphar-07-00309-g0001.jpg"]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5022003/bin/fphar-07-00309-g0001.jpg[/IMG]



Good luck

 

[DutchOven]

Hydrogen cyanide comes from heating Myclobutanil, which is a nasty pesticide.

Right. So here's the thing ... Since marijuana is still not fully legalized here in Holland, the users have to trust the coffeeshops (most of the staff just sells it to a non-stop waiting line of tourists, but they don't know sh#t about the quality. Some of them don't even know which is a sativa or an indica.) ... This weed is bought in "bulk" by the coffeeshop via the backdoor from criminals, since selling it to users is legal, but growing is illegal (yeah, I know ...)

So since I can't trust the information about the possible use of pesticides, is there another way to find out? E.g. is there a difference in taste or smell that's clearly noticeable?

I also read that the boiling point of HCN is already at 25.6 C (78 F) ... So at a summer day it should evaporate by itself ... Looks like I just have to skip fully inhaling the first hit and I'm good (??)

 

[invertedisdead]

Right. So here's the thing ... Since marijuana is still not fully legalized here in Holland, the users have to trust the coffeeshops (most of the staff just sells it to a non-stop waiting line of tourists, but they don't know sh#t about the quality. Some of them don't even know which is a sativa or an indica.) ... This weed is bought in "bulk" by the coffeeshop via the backdoor from criminals, since selling it to users is legal, but growing is illegal (yeah, I know ...)

So since I can't trust the information about the possible use of pesticides, is there another way to find out? E.g. is there a difference in taste or smell that's clearly noticeable?

I also read that the boiling point of HCN is already at 25.6 C (78 F) ... So at a summer day it should evaporate by itself ... Looks like I just have to skip fully inhaling the first hit and I'm good (??)

The problem is the hydrogen cyanide is created as a decomposition byproduct of heating Myclobutanil so I don't believe the same boiling point metric applies here.

We had a bad problem here in CA with Eagle 20 (Myclobutanil)
Honestly it took getting caught to create enough awareness to get people to cut back on it. I think it was a Cannabis Cup a few years back where something like 90%+ entries were tested and found to be using it.

 

[DutchOven]

The problem is the hydrogen cyanide is created as a decomposition byproduct of heating Myclobutanil so I don't believe the same boiling point metric applies here.

We had a bad problem here in CA with Eagle 20 (Myclobutanil)
Honestly it took getting caught to create enough awareness to get people to cut back on it. I think it was a Cannabis Cup a few years back where something like 90%+ entries were tested and found to be using it.

Well, hydrogen cyanide seems to be present in cigarette smoke as well. So what you're saying about the temperature is probably right. Either way, when you smoke contaminated cannabis, these toxics will also release, right? So from that point of view, vaporizing couldn't be that much worse. Besides, low levels of hydrogen cyanide cause headaches and nausea, while high doses cause weight loss and digestion problems. So I guess one will notice on time before it's really too late.

One of the worst compounds in cigarette smoke, formaldehyde which causes cancer, is also found in thinning agent that is used in vaping oils. But I can't find anything (yet) about formaldehyde when vaping dry plant material.

Since you live in CA, isn't there a lot of outdoor weed being sold because of the sunny climate? Cause almost everything here is grown indoor. So I'm wondering if pesticides are more commonly used on outdoor weed, because of bugs, insects and other threats that are easier to keep out of the environment when growing indoor? Fertilizer is being used for sure here. Don't know if that has any effect on vaporizing? I'm just thinking about growing some myself. Pure biological, that would be.

 

[Duba]

Since you live in CA, isn't there a lot of outdoor weed being sold because of the sunny climate? Cause almost everything here is grown indoor. So I'm wondering if pesticides are more commonly used on outdoor weed, because of bugs, insects and other threats that are easier to keep out of the environment when growing indoor? Fertilizer is being used for sure here. Don't know if that has any effect on vaporizing? I'm just thinking about growing some myself. Pure biological, that would be.

As a farmer, i can say that you'll "need" pesticides in indoor grown too.
Coming from Holland, your biggest problem is the quality of the weed you smoke/vaporize. I know what i mean because i lived in Belgium during long years so i smoked a lot of weeds from Holland or the same parallel business : weeds are strongs but full of chimical products. Flavours and Effects are efficients and amazing but without any informations about the production process. For sure, As with other productive and profitable crop production sectors, chemicals are common practice and those who don't use them claim it high and strong today (Biologic production)
The best way is to grow yourself. You can produce very good quality products without any chemical input and you vape a wellknown product.

 

[C No Ego]

Well, hydrogen cyanide seems to be present in cigarette smoke as well. So what you're saying about the temperature is probably right. Either way, when you smoke contaminated cannabis, these toxics will also release, right? So from that point of view, vaporizing couldn't be that much worse. Besides, low levels of hydrogen cyanide cause headaches and nausea, while high doses cause weight loss and digestion problems. So I guess one will notice on time before it's really too late.

One of the worst compounds in cigarette smoke, formaldehyde which causes cancer, is also found in thinning agent that is used in vaping oils. But I can't find anything (yet) about formaldehyde when vaping dry plant material.

Since you live in CA, isn't there a lot of outdoor weed being sold because of the sunny climate? Cause almost everything here is grown indoor. So I'm wondering if pesticides are more commonly used on outdoor weed, because of bugs, insects and other threats that are easier to keep out of the environment when growing indoor? Fertilizer is being used for sure here. Don't know if that has any effect on vaporizing? I'm just thinking about growing some myself. Pure biological, that would be.

think of it this way ,, if you are not also inhaling smoke which is harmful with your cananbis dose think of vaping as delivering everything in there and more while not delivering any smoke ... if you smoke cananbi sand there ar e[pesticides the same cannabis if vaporized will have those same pesticides without smoke too

 

[DutchOven]

think of it this way ,, if you are not also inhaling smoke which is harmful with your cananbis dose think of vaping as delivering everything in there and more while not delivering any smoke ... if you smoke cananbi sand there ar e[pesticides the same cannabis if vaporized will have those same pesticides without smoke too

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. But maybe, just maybe, some of those harmful toxics that still exist in vape, might be in a higher concentration than in smoke, because vaping is more effective than burning (???) I have absolutely no idea. Are there any users on the forum who made the switch like 10 years ago and can tell me about their health?

 

[arb]

As a farmer, i can say that you'll "need" pesticides in indoor grown too.
Coming from Holland, your biggest problem is the quality of the weed you smoke/vaporize. I know what i mean because i lived in Belgium during long years so i smoked a lot of weeds from Holland or the same parallel business : weeds are strongs but full of chimical products. Flavours and Effects are efficients and amazing but without any informations about the production process. For sure, As with other productive and profitable crop production sectors, chemicals are common practice and those who don't use them claim it high and strong today (Biologic production)
The best way is to grow yourself. You can produce very good quality products without any chemical input and you vape a wellknown product.

I am a indoor grower and I don't spray or use any type of pesticide,fungicide or additives.
Been doing it that way for 22 years now.

 

[Cheebsy]

I completely agree @arb but it is true to say that pest pressure still exists when growing indoors. There is absolutely no need to use chemical pesticides however, my preference being biological solutions.

If you don't know or trust your grower(s) there is no practical way to be sure what else is there. I have found some weed vape particularly harshly and when I don't know where is came from I did wonder how much of that is due to sprays or treatments that I wouldn't want to use.

 

[arb]

I completely agree @arb but it is true to say that pest pressure still exists when growing indoors. There is absolutely no need to use chemical pesticides however, my preference being biological solutions.

If you don't know or trust your grower(s) there is no practical way to be sure what else is there. I have found some weed vape particularly harshly and when I don't know where is came from I did wonder how much of that is due to sprays or treatments that I wouldn't want to use.

For the record I do not and will not consume any product from a dispensary.
Absolute worst most low end for the money shit products imaginable.
Frankly growing quality cannabis is easy and cost effective.

 

[Duba]

I am a indoor grower and I don't spray or use any type of pesticide,fungicide or additives.
Been doing it that way for 22 years now.

I agree with you of course, i was talking about industrial production. We don't have to use any chimical product in our production.
But, the industry still use a lot a this shit, in the weed industry too. They use a lot of chemical fertilizer. And I'm not sure of the quality control in the coffee shops in Holland....That's what i wanted to explain.

 

[Roffa]

Right. So here's the thing ... Since marijuana is still not fully legalized here in Holland, the users have to trust the coffeeshops (most of the staff just sells it to a non-stop waiting line of tourists, but they don't know sh#t about the quality. Some of them don't even know which is a sativa or an indica.) ... This weed is bought in "bulk" by the coffeeshop via the backdoor from criminals, since selling it to users is legal, but growing is illegal (yeah, I know ...)

So since I can't trust the information about the possible use of pesticides, is there another way to find out? E.g. is there a difference in taste or smell that's clearly noticeable?

I also read that the boiling point of HCN is already at 25.6 C (78 F) ... So at a summer day it should evaporate by itself ... Looks like I just have to skip fully inhaling the first hit and I'm good (??)

Hello. I'm in NL as well, and I choose my suppliers wisely, especially because there is no consumer protection, because supplying outlets is still illegal. I don't know whereabouts you live in NL, but I'm a very happy customer with Dr Green in The Hague and Boerejongens in Amsterdam. Especially Boerejongens, as the outlet of Amsterdam Genetics is excellent.

 

[CurryLeafTreehugger]

For the record I do not and will not consume any product from a dispensary.
Absolute worst most low end for the money shit products imaginable.
Frankly growing quality cannabis is easy and cost effective.

Sadly in my and most other states it is absolutely illegal to grow your own, even if you are a medical patient. Nominally, my state will allow you to grow your own if you live at least 20+ miles from a dispensary, but in practice, very few people are allowed this and I certainly do not live more than 20 miles from a dispensary. Even if you manage to get "permission" to grow, there is no legal way to get plants or starts or seeds.

I would love to grow my own, but that totally flies in the face of the greed model the cannabis industry is being built around.

 

[west-elec]

I read in another thread somewhere? that smoking can perhaps destroy some harmfuls in pesticides by the higher heat and combustion whereas vaping would more likely release them into the vapour. So with regards pesticides maybe vaping is worse. Don't know if science backs that up but even burnt pesticides are bad pesticides to me.
I would think it fairly certain in large scale commercial indoor they are going to be using some chemicals for pest control, unless they are charging a premium for organic. Even then maybe they still will if no-one regulates them. Organic outlaw Bikie gangs are probably not common. Hopefully they at least follow withholding periods between application and harvest, but how much remains?
Growing your own is the only way to be sure.

 

[CurryLeafTreehugger]

Every state has regulations about the use of chemicals (and yes that includes "organics", its ALL chemicals) on weed. The point is that a lot of growers have been ignoring these rules/regulations/whatever and getting away with it for years on end.

It totally depends on the chemical involved how it would react to various levels of heat up to and including actual combustion. "Burning away" is more likely to release compounds every bit as irritating-to-deadly as whatever you just burnt up, if not more so. It totally depends on the compound in question whether or not it would be released in dangerous quantities at normal vaping temps. You can't make any blanket statement whatsoever.

However regulations have been set up to minimize or totally ban the use of dangerous chemicals in growing weed for ingestion. AS FAR AS THEY KNOW. I'm good with that for now, but we really as a nation and society need to get over this whole South Park Weed-Is-Bad-Mmmk? mindset and start DOING THE RESEARCH.

 

[DutchOven]

I read in another thread somewhere? that smoking can perhaps destroy some harmfuls in pesticides by the higher heat and combustion whereas vaping would more likely release them into the vapour.

Exactly this. You have a link to that article??

 

[justcametomind]

If I were you I'd give a look at how to qualify to get medicinal cannabis in your country:
"Doctors can prescribe medical marijuana for any condition if they think that it will have more benefits than previously tried medications"

Qualifying for Medical Marijuana in the Netherlands | Marijuana Doctors

If you're a patient in the Netherlands, learning the qualifications for medical marijuana can help you get closer to treatment. Learn more about how to qualify for medical marijuana in the Netherlands.

www.marijuanadoctors.com

 

[RobbIt]

Sadly in my and most other states it is absolutely illegal to grow your own, even if you are a medical patient. Nominally, my state will allow you to grow your own if you live at least 20+ miles from a dispensary, but practice, very few people are allowed this and I certainly do not live more than 20 miles from a dispensary. Even if you manage to get "permission" to grow, there is no legal way to get plants or starts or seeds.

I would love to grow my own, but that totally flies in the face of the greed model the cannabis industry is being built around.

Yes, and sadly the US cannabis industry greed factor will get worse before better.

 

[arb]

Yes, and sadly the US cannabis industry greed factor will get worse before better.

If only there was a way.........makes me wonder how we even have cannabis after 50 years of programming and drug wars.

 

[KeroZen]

Just to nitpick, your Ascent is full-on conduction with not a hint of convection. It's also shock full of stinky silicone that doesn't like being cleaned with ISO and will degrade over time. On top of that, due to a design flaw, it's electronics are not fully isolated from the vapor path and that flaw also makes the vapor to air ratio sub-optimal (i.e. very diluted)

It was my very first own vape, so it's entirely experience speaking here. Nowadays I would recommend everything but the Ascent, it's so finicky to use, super under-powered. And yes you are starting at a very high temperature. If you want to maximize both taste and effects, start at 180°C and ramp your way up to 210°C progressively when the vapor output lowers. It takes longer to extract but it will preserve taste better.

Ah, and tamp the shit down out of your bowl! Use any kind of tool or even the tip of your finger, and compress the material in your bowl. It must make contact with the bowl walls and bottom at all times. So make a little puck. And be careful, if you draw too hard or shake the device the puck might rise and vapor production will lower. It's very important to use the puck technique with all conduction vapes.

Some also recommend using glass beads to add thermal mass and help the puck stay in place. I never liked those because unloading scorching hot beads and sorting the ABV bits out of them while outside was a pain. But they do increase vapor output in this device.

I don't want to discourage you of course, it is still much better than smoking. But if you stick around here you will soon discover a world of much better performing vapes that don't have the above-mentioned shortcomings.

 

[Roffa]

Exactly this. You have a link to that article??

here's a link to an online supplier that only does organic flower https://thcspecialist.nl/product-categorie/wiet/
Willie Wortel in Haarlem: http://www.williewortelsinsemilla.nl/ only has organically grown strains
I already mentioned boerejongens (Ams) and Dr Green (The Hague)

and the greenmeister site has good listings, but you'll have to do a bit of digging https://greenmeister.nl/coffeeshops
or ask around on the mediwiet forum.

Where in NL do you live?

 

[Roffa]

If I were you I'd give a look at how to qualify to get medicinal cannabis in your country:
"Doctors can prescribe medical marijuana for any condition if they think that it will have more benefits than previously tried medications"

Qualifying for Medical Marijuana in the Netherlands | Marijuana Doctors

If you're a patient in the Netherlands, learning the qualifications for medical marijuana can help you get closer to treatment. Learn more about how to qualify for medical marijuana in the Netherlands.

www.marijuanadoctors.com

I could make use of this programme, but the experience of many medical cannabis users is that it is so restrictive that almost no one qualifies. Also GPs and specialists are not too keen on prescribing, so it's kind of an empty promise, that scheme.