Sublimation

[Timothy]

May I introduce myself, my name is Timothy and I am an epidemiologist. I noticed many discrepancies that I felt need to be addressed for the potential buyer. I did notice the other thread was shut down due to some rude comments so I will make this as polite as I can while attempting to explain some facts. This (sublimation) is not my direct field of study but I believe I can make a qualified analysis since I have come across sublimation in my studies, it is simple chemistry.


I read through the rules and I don't believe I am in violation with this post, I know the moderators have a tough job in keeping this board civil so I would appreciate every ones patience so we do not turn this thread into the last one. I would also like to keep this out of the manufacturers thread to be considerate.


First I will start by saying that the inventor himself says he is not a scientist so I will not blame him for designing a device that defies the principals of the chemistry in its namesake. I can not blame him for an interesting marketing strategy, I must admit that it has shook things up online. Some people are going to be thinking: "Who does this Tim think he is, Enrico showed us a Patent on YouTube", well I hate to be the bad news bear but Patents come in different forms and they do not have to prove the device does what it claims (you can get a patent with a simple sketch diagram without even a working prototype)


Sublimation occurs with many different elements but it is hard to consider Cannabis into any of these categories considering it contains a multitude of elements so first you have to ask the big question...

What are we Sublimating?

THC, Canabanoids, Cellulose, Amino Acids, etc etc


A quote from an online source: Americans for Safe Access, a medical marijuana advocacy group, (accessed Dec. 7, 2006):


"...[T]here are 483 different identifiable chemical constituents known to exist in cannabis. The most distinctive and specific class of compounds are the cannabinoids (66 known), that are only known to exist in the cannabis plant.

Other constituents of the cannabis plant are: nitrogenous compounds (27 known), amino acids (18), proteins (3), glycoproteins (6), enzymes (2), sugars and related compounds (34), hydrocarbons (50), simple alcohols (7), aldehydes (13), ketones (13), simple acids (21), fatty acids (22), simple esters (12), lactones (1), steroids (11), terpenes (120), non-cannabinoid phenols (25), flavonoids (21), vitamins (1) [Vitamin A], pigments (2), and elements (9).

^^^^
This plant of ours is so much more complicated than most realize and you can not just "sublimate" an entire plant composed of all you see above.





Lets for simplicity's sake say it is the THC that we are after in are Sublimate, Ok well since we all know THC is found mostly in the Cannabis plants trichombs. Since a tricome consist of the plants oily resin (liquid), how can one turn the THC into a gas without melting or boiling the trichome? (After all we are applying heat)


The most obvious case of Sublimation is solidified frozen carbon dioxide or dry ice, under normal atmospheric conditions frozen Carbon Dioxide at -80°C will sublimate directly to gas at room temperature. In thermodynamics the triple point of an element is the pressure and temp at which the three phases of that element can coexist in a thermodynamic equilibrium. i.e. water under 32°F is a solid (ice) If you begin to warm the ice above freezing point and it starts melting, it exists as a solid and a liquid at the same time. Water above 32°F is in a liquid state, when heat is applied and steam is released, allowing it to exist as both a gas & liquid.

In addition to the triple point between solid, liquid, and gas, there can be triple points involving more than one solid phase.

I would like to mention a few discrepancies that I have noticed with this product by listening to Enrico on these videos. To start I am going to start by using his picture diagram as a reference point.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
I am addressing the ones I feel are misleading

#1. He mentions that placing the Apollo heater on the bowl creates thermal equilibrium. This is no different from conduction. When you place a heat source in contact with a metal structure, the metal structure will draw heat away from the heat source, absorbing, dissipating. (think heat sink on a CPU)
Thermal equilibrium is achieved from two vaporizers off the top of my head, first is the Vapolution and 2nd is the Bud Toaster (which appears to pull this thermal equilibrium it off the best) the videos prove you get the benefits from convection and conduction in an oven like environment. The entire vial is surrounded by heat and a second stream of hot air rushes through the Herb for a blast of convection hot air.


#3. There will be no "Vortex" in this contraption. You see for this to happen there would need to be longer passageways (think of a rifle being fired in comparison to a pistol, a longer barrel will usually lead the bullet along the desired path for a longer period of time. leading to better accuacy) It all comes down to momentum.
What I am trying to convey here is that the air will travel in the path of least resistance (straight down in this case) considering the downward pressure which will be in force from the users inhale.


#4. Vapor will not have time to collect in this chamber considering an average hit is only seconds long (Just think of how fast the air will be moving when you inhale)


#5. This is not an atomizer. He says in a video it is a 1.7mm hole. Well what he means is a constriction (nearly all vaporizers have some sort of constriction near the bowl, standard mesh screens could called "Atomizers" if this were true (just think of all the tiny holes)


Enrico mentions several times about this atomizer "reheating the gas" Where is the heat from?

There is no heater down there, and like I already explained in #1, the heat from the heater will dissipate long before it can heat this section. Reheating the vapor is not sublimation.


#6. To be honest, the reason this device seems to catch reclaim is because of condensation. (so if anything "The Atomizer" is actually pulling more THC/CBN out of the air)

 

[VaporEyes]

I still reserve my judgements until I have it in my hands. Then we'll know for sure just what is going on here and see if it truly is "beyond vaporization".

 

[Hippie Dickie]

Enrico mentions several times about this atomizer "reheating the gas" Where is the heat from?

i think this "reheating the gas" heat is from the thermal equilibrium of the entire stainless steel device. The atomizer is probably not cooled as much as the herb bowl since the airflow is restricted and the herb bowl will be cooled by the release of vapor (heat of vaporization).

Several people on FC have talked about reheating the vapor by putting hot water in the water tool they use, and that this has a noticable effect of enhancing the high.

One thing i don't understand is how the vapor poop (ABV) is so green after extraction, given the amount of vapor produced. The Bud Toaster ABV is always dark brown -- being toasted in the oven tube from IR from the heater coil and hot air flow.

 

[Jeppy]

I will wait for Stu to get his hands on the Sublimator. As far as I know, it is in route.

 

[Buildozer]

Welcome Timothy.. nice post..

......One thing i don't understand is how the vapor poop (ABV) is so green after extraction, given the amount of vapor produced.....

maybe from using as low of a temp as possible.. i notice w/ my whip vape, if i pre-heat the wand on the vape for a few mins, then load and use it.. i'm able to get more instant and dense vapor w/ a lower temp than w/o the pre-heated whip.. and risk of combustion and charring or hot spots is greatly reduced.

 

[tepictoton]

Interesting, lets see where this goes...

The thing I found most interesting is the talk about smaller particles in the vapor. And honestly, maybe there is a good point to this. I know this comparison might not be good, as in apples to oranges, but still...when watering our beloved plants misting with a very fine mist, particles under a certain size will be taken up by the leaves easily, while when they go over this size, the leaves have a hard time taking any of it in. So even with a higher 'dosage' one does not get the same amount of intake...might be something to that extend is taking place?

If this however has anything to do with sublimation as such, I do not know.

and welcome Timothy, always nice to see people with a specific knowledge to come on board and give us a better insight into what might be happening here

 

[Frederick McGuire]

Here's what I still don't get:

Vaporisation is essentially evaporation correct? Hot air causes the oils to boil and evaporate off as "steam" (though in this case cannabinoid steam).

Sublimation is supposed to skip the liquid phase altogether and go from solid to gas. (think Dry Ice at room temp).

THC and the other goodies are in the trichs, mostly in a liquid (oil) state surrounded by a solid outer layer (I don't know if the solid part of the trich is also supposed to be TCH) at room temp.

• If the goodies we want are liquid, at room temp, how can they be sublimated?
• If we imagined they were solid at room temp, would there be anything inherently more desirable about the "sublimate steam" (so going straight from solid to gas) vs "vapor steam" (which in this thought experiment would be Solid melts to liquid evaporates to gas)

 

[Dafni]

If the goodies we want are liquid, at room temp, how can they be sublimated?

They can not. Period. You got that perfectly right, in order to have sublimation you need to go from solid to gas without going through the liquid phase. You simply cannot sublime a liquid, its a contradiction in itself.

And even if the goodies are solid at room temp, they will melt before they evaporate. This is not true for all substances you find on planet earth, some do in fact sublime (given the right conditions, like high vaccuum), but not our beloved goodies (at least not at ambient pressure). They melt, and then they boil. Hence you look at the boiling temps of these substances when you want to find the proper vape temp.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

THC and the other goodies are in the trichs, mostly in a liquid (oil) state surrounded by a solid outer layer (I don't know if the solid part of the trich is also supposed to be TCH) at room temp.

according to the article i have seen the solid outer layer of the trichome does not contain THC, it is all inside the globe. and there is miniscule amounts of THC anywhere else in the plant. that's why grinding doesn't make any sense to me. All that does is expose the interior of the plant cellular matter without exposing any additional THC. So a lot of the vapor probably doesn't contain any additional THC.

So, rather than melting the trichome waxy shell, the sublimator sublimates the shell and then vaporizes the THC goo.

But it appears there is no temperature control .... ? got to be pretty low temp for the ABV to stay green.

 

[Tweek]

There is a temp control...I am just not sure how it works compared to other units. The control box I saw didn't appear to have any type of numbers on it...but apparently it does go up in 5(10?) degree increments.

 

[stickstones]

hippie...I thought there were some smaller traces of thc throughout the leaves and bud, just not the stems. I don't remember where or when I heard this, but it was a while ago...probably when I first started vaping.

 

[pakalolo]

hippie...I thought there were some smaller traces of thc throughout the leaves and bud, just not the stems. I don't remember where or when I heard this, but it was a while ago...probably when I first started vaping.

There are probably millions of us who only got leaves back in the 60s and 70s and we all got high smoking that. I know for a fact that smoking bottom leaves from an immature plant will get you stoned because I've done it. It was decent weed.

 

[tepictoton]

Yes, for sure, from the trichomes on them, but not from the THC IN them...

I guess what he was trying to say is that you will not find decent amounts of thc inside of the plant matter, only in high numbers on the trichomes, which are only situated on the outside of the plant matter...

 

[Hippie Dickie]

temp control? how do you control the temp of a camp fire? or is that just for dabs, not herb?

 

[Tweek]

temp control? how do you control the temp of a camp fire? or is that just for dabs, not herb?

There are different models...one is a campfire model and the other is a plug in.

 

[luchiano]

i think this "reheating the gas" heat is from the thermal equilibrium of the entire stainless steel device. The atomizer is probably not cooled as much as the herb bowl since the airflow is restricted and the herb bowl will be cooled by the release of vapor (heat of vaporization).

Several people on FC have talked about reheating the vapor by putting hot water in the water tool they use, and that this has a noticable effect of enhancing the high.

One thing i don't understand is how the vapor poop (ABV) is so green after extraction, given the amount of vapor produced. The Bud Toaster ABV is always dark brown -- being toasted in the oven tube from IR from the heater coil and hot air flow.

I think the effects they are feeling is from the hot water allowing more moisture to hit the lungs, and not the vapor getting reheated. Also, the hot water having less of the vapor to condense, so more is going to the lungs.

I think the reason the vapor is still green is because the heater didn't get hot enough, and then enrico inhaled. I've seen it brown at times. Like I stated before, I think the device is just heating to a high temperature, and being that you inhale fast, the temperature drops enough to allow the bud from burning. What needs to be done is to see if more vapor can be extracted using a temperature controlled vaporizer. If you can extract more vapor, then it didn't do what it claims. I think people forget that the reason enrico may not get more vapor from the sublimator is because that is all it can extract due to how it's made, but that doesn't mean all of the substances are extracted. @tweek, why don't you do a session with the sublimator, and once the vapor gets thin, put the same herb in the volcano, and see if more vapor is produced by adjusting the temperature gradually until you reach the highest setting.

according to the article i have seen the solid outer layer of the trichome does not contain THC, it is all inside the globe. and there is miniscule amounts of THC anywhere else in the plant. that's why grinding doesn't make any sense to me. All that does is expose the interior of the plant cellular matter without exposing any additional THC. So a lot of the vapor probably doesn't contain any additional THC.

So, rather than melting the trichome waxy shell, the sublimator sublimates the shell and then vaporizes the THC goo.

But it appears there is no temperature control .... ? got to be pretty low temp for the ABV to stay green.

I think there is more substances within the plant that is effecting the high, and not just cannabinoids. I also have a theory sativas, and indicas, are not entirely the same in how they make cannabinoids. I have a feeling sativas may have more cannabinoids in the plant fibers than indicas have, because they are so used to being grown in hot climates, that they may need to have the cannabinoids protect more of the plant fibers from moisture loss then an indica would. This is may be why they grow so long, and thin. They need to let moisture out, but at the same time preserve some moisture so they don't go dry. They also would need the cannabinoids to protect them from predators, and being that they are long, they are more exposed to these threats, so having cannabinoids within the plant fibers would make more sense then having it on the outside. You would still want some on the outside, just not as much as it would cause the plant to get too hot, and burn, as the trichomes absorb light, and heat very efficiently.

Indicas on the other hand, are fat so they can preserve heat, and also they have more trichomes on the outside of the plant to prevent moisture loss, as well as absorb more light due to growing in environments that aren't rich in sun, and heat, like sativas are. IDK just a theory.

Anyway check out this study I found a few days ago about thc, cbn.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1221432

"The interaction of delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta9-THC) and cannabinol (CBN) was studied in man. Five male volunteers were given placebo, 50 mg CBN, 25 mg delta9-THC, 12.5 mg delta9-THC + 25 mg CBN, and 25 mg delta9-THC + 50 mg CBN (orally). Administrations were spaced 1 week apart. With physiological measures, delta9-THC produced an increase in heart rate while CBN did not. When combined, no change of the delta9-THC effect occurred. No changes occurred on the electrocardiogram, blood pressure, or body temperature. With psychophysical measures no changes occurred in pain thresholds or skin sensitivity as a function of drug treatment. In time estimates of the passage of 1 minute, delta9-THC alone produced underestimates of the passage of 1 minute and CBN alone had no effect. In combination the two drugs had a tendency to produce significant overestimates and underestimates of the passage of 1 minute. On a 66-item adjective-pair drug reaction scale, the volunteers reported feeling drugged, drunk, dizzy, and drowsy under the delta9-THC condition, but not under the CBN condition. With combined drug treatment, volunteers reported feeling more drugged, drunk, dizzy, and drowsy than under the delta9-THC condition alone. None of the drug treatments produced significant changes on other items which included items on perception, emotion, cognition and sociability. It appears that CBN increases the effect of delta9-THC on some aspects of physiological and psychological processes, but that these effects are small and cannot account for the greater potency which has been reported when plant material is used."

 

[Hippie Dickie]

There are different models...one is a campfire model and the other is a plug in.

right. i understand there are two different types of heater and apparently it doesn't make any difference whether it is a camp fire or a plug in. i'm just suggesting there is a very wide range of temperatures between the two sources. and the device still works. kind of takes temperature out of the equation, above some minimum value.

 

[Tweek]

right. i understand there are two different types of heater and apparently it doesn't make any difference whether it is a camp fire or a plug in. i'm just suggesting there is a very wide range of temperatures between the two sources. and the device still works. kind of takes temperature out of the equation, above some minimum value.

Sorry, didn't realize you knew that. Carry on.

 

[Timothy]

I have a very simple theory that the Sublimator is really just a high temperature vaporizer and subsequently it produces what seems to be highly concentrated vapor.



It starts with the design of the "Flagship" contraption. Firstly relatively large "Bong" with a "Cap with a very Slim Hose", and "No Water". The key here is the "Cap & Slim-Hose" which is slowing the vapors rise so drawing/inhaling from a device like this should in my humble opinion create a more concentrated bong chamber.



I am not a gambling man but I would be willing to wager on this theory: You will see the same "high-density-vapor" results, if you were to simply unite a vaporizer such as the Cloud with the Sublimator "Bong" minus the combination of the "Apollo & Downstem". You should yield the same results given the device temperatures are equal
.

right. i understand there are two different types of heater and apparently it doesn't make any difference whether it is a camp fire or a plug in. i'm just suggesting there is a very wide range of temperatures between the two sources. and the device still works. kind of takes temperature out of the equation, above some minimum value.

Temperature output of this device is going to be subject to the speed at which the user inhales and here is why: The heating element is obviously running at temperatures greatly exceeding vaporization temperatures if you are able to vaporizer concentrates instantly by dabbing them through the holes in the "Apollo" presumably directly onto the heating element itself. So it seems that the "Apollo" heaters temperature will be a slave to the inhalation rate, the same as vaporizers such as the LSV, Box Vapes, etc.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

yeah, well, super hot would definitely put the temperature above the triple point.

good comment about "Cap & Slim-Hose" ... could be pulling a partial vacuum which would accelerate sublimation (or vaporization).

 

[natural farmer]

So it seems that the "Apollo" heaters temperature will be a slave to the inhalation rate, the same as vaporizers such as the LSV, Box Vapes, etc.

While watching the vids I remember seeing ABV of all colors, from green to brown... As there shouldn't be a way to instantly compensate for the heat lose due to the draw, it should have a real problem with back to back hits at a party... At least with flowers of course... Except if the high-mass steel can keep the heat very efficiently... IDK...

 

[stickstones]

it was working fine in Enrico's 'five strains in five minutes' thread. he ended up doing it in three and a half minutes

 

[Tweek]

Yeah, those guys have been hitting it like champs in most of the videos...

 

[luchiano]

it was working fine in Enrico's 'five strains in five minutes' thread. he ended up doing it in three and a half minutes

If you look at the bowl he is dumping the herb in, some of the herb is green, and some is brown. In some videos, I've seen the herb really green, and in some I've seen it really brown, and in some I've seen in brown with specs of green.

Also, in that video a lot of the vapor is collecting on top of each other as he doesn't clear all the hits during each inhale, so it may look like the heater isn't cooling down, but it's the vapor piling up on each other giving a thick look.
Go to 0:39

Go to 31:44(He is using the manual version with a torch). The Herb is green.

The cloud is just because the excess air is cooling down the vapor, and condensing it. This is why using clouds as a way to see if vaporizers are doing what they say, is not the best method. Notice how quickly you see a cloud once the heat from the torch is taken away. Judging by taste, is also not the best method as those substances vape very easily, and if you bring in excess air along with them in your inhale, the taste will seem more powerful just because the air is "puffing" up the vapor, which allows more receptors in your olfactory, and mouth to be touch, by that doesn't mean the vaporizer is being exact in it's temperature, and extracting everything you want. Especially considering thc, is odorless, and tasteless.


Tweek, did you read my previous post of using the volcano to see if the sublimator extracted everything?.

 

[Stu]

From PlanetVape's website:

The Apollo is the heart of the flagship product, The Sublimator. The Apollo is more efficient than most vaporizers on the market today. It is the heating source that digs the valley between vaporizing and sublimating. Creating a whirlpool of hot and cool hair in the Demoleculiser and through your herbs, this unit transforms any 14-18mm water tool into a sublimating device.

Now, I can give some slack with the "digging a valley" comment as a way of backing off of true sublimation claims, but what I don't understand is this "domoleculization" that is apparently happening as well. Can someone please explain to me what a "Demoleculiser" does?