Sublimation

[Tweek]

I want to venture a guess and say that "Demoleculiser" is just a fancy way of saying that it breaks the particle size of the vapor down through the narrowing of the air path in the atomizer.

I could be completely wrong though.

 

[Stu]

When words have no meaning, we have no common lexicon with which to compare ideas and thoughts. I'd like to have a talk with whomever is writing Enrico's ad copy.

 

[Enchantre]

I did notice in the videos that his grasp of English seems a bit tenuous.

 

[webb]

I can't remember who posted this before me, but all these terms reminded me of this.

 

[pakalolo]

All right, this thread is headed in the direction that got the original Sublimator thread closed. Enrico and his grasp of English or the terminology he uses is not the topic here. Either discuss the sublimation process or this thread will meet the same fate.

 

[mrboote]

This kind of science oriented, fact based chit-chat is why FC holds a dear place in my shriveled grinch heart!

Let us assume that sublimation has occurred (I believe at this point there is no device that claims to actually sublimate), and there exists gaseous cannabis extract for the inhaling. What about this exactly makes it in any way different than what a tired old vape from yesteryear is doing? In dimwits terms, there are four states matter can assume, and vapor ain't one of them. That's right folks, your trusty old volcano has been emitting a gas all along. The designation of gas vs vapor has nothing to do with molecule size, and only to do with whether a substance went through a phase change (like boiling) to become gaseous, or not.

 

[luchiano]

This kind of science oriented, fact based chit-chat is why FC holds a dear place in my shriveled grinch heart!

Let us assume that sublimation has occurred (I believe at this point there is no device that claims to actually sublimate), and there exists gaseous cannabis extract for the inhaling. What about this exactly makes it in any way different than what a tired old vape from yesteryear is doing? In dimwits terms, there are four states matter can assume, and vapor ain't one of them. That's right folks, your trusty old volcano has been emitting a gas all along. The designation of gas vs vapor has nothing to do with molecule size, and only to do with whether a substance went through a phase change (like boiling) to become gaseous, or not.

You just killed all the discussions with a plain, and simple fact. Gotta give it up to you

 

[natural farmer]

This kind of science oriented, fact based chit-chat is why FC holds a dear place in my shriveled grinch heart!

Let us assume that sublimation has occurred (I believe at this point there is no device that claims to actually sublimate), and there exists gaseous cannabis extract for the inhaling. What about this exactly makes it in any way different than what a tired old vape from yesteryear is doing? In dimwits terms, there are four states matter can assume, and vapor ain't one of them. That's right folks, your trusty old volcano has been emitting a gas all along. The designation of gas vs vapor has nothing to do with molecule size, and only to do with whether a substance went through a phase change (like boiling) to become gaseous, or not.

So, in all, all vaporizers produce vapor, because it went through a phase change (oil/liquid->gas) and we inhale gas either it comes from a Solo or a Sublimator. Right?

That leaves us with the question. What does Sublimator do that makes it, as the vids suggest, smoother to the throat and offer better absorption? My guess is that the atomizer compresses the oily gas and fresh air to a more homogenized mix that simply goes down our throat smoother. Better absorbed though? I wouldn't bet on that...

 

[stickstones]

enrico says the final stage breaks down the gas into smaller molecules for better absorption.

 

[mrboote]

All right, this thread is headed in the direction that got the original Sublimator thread closed. Enrico and his grasp of English or the terminology he uses is not the topic here. Either discuss the sublimation process or this thread will meet the same fate.

enrico says the final stage breaks down the gas into smaller molecules for better absorption.

This some kind of entrapment?

 

[Dafni]

.... breaks down the gas into smaller molecules for better absorption.

just a point, but if you break down cannabinoid molecules you don't have cannabinoids anymore... just sayin

 

[pakalolo]

This some kind of entrapment?

sticks is discussing the process as described by Enrico, not mocking his terminology. Big difference.

 

[tepictoton]

Sorry, but if he says something none of us can ask anything about it or what are you saying here?

So if our children later on will ask: Hey what is this? We should tell them, Enrico said so, stop asking questions?

I have been following this thread and the one in particular to the vape, but I do have to say, the spirit of Fuckcombustion is hard to see, especially in these specific threads.

Look it is not because you question the words being used that you are attacking someone. Trying to figure out what is going on, I thaught we were doing that will al the vaporizers offered to us. Yet when it comes to this sublimation and or mator, we cannot be critical?

What's up with that?

I sure do not like it one bit. Least thing you can expect some company to do when they offer you a product is be precise about what is going on, what materials are used and so on. When a company uses vague terminology here, it gets ripped apart for telling BS...How is that different from all this sublimation/mator stuff?

Again i have a feeling people are not trying to bash or anything, just trying to gain knowledge, and the last thing we need is being 'distracted'(to put it friendly) by some terminology that has no scientific basis whatsoever.

All I personally would like to see is a thread were all this stuff is explained to us, as in knowledge being shared. I would love one day to try one of the vapes making use of this technology, once I understand it...

 

[Hippie Dickie]

My guess is that the atomizer compresses the oily gas and fresh air to a more homogenized mix that simply goes down our throat smoother. Better absorbed though?

i think this is what is happening and i think it would be better absorbed if the dispersal of vapor in the air is better -- no clumps of vapor molecules, so more of the alveoli are touched without being squashed.

 

[stickstones]

we are trying to keep the science of sublimation out of the Sublimator thread and in this one, since the Sublimator does not sublimate. This thread keeps coming back to the Sublimator vaporizer, and it is understandable since it is the only product on the market even bringing sublimation up, but we would like model specific comments in the model thread.

I'm not sure I even see the point of this thread anymore since sublimation is not happening to cannabis anywhere on the market. At first we thought members would want to discuss the science of it, but it all points back to the Sublimator, it seems.

What we are doing is toeing the line hard when it comes to hacking on the Sublimator or Enrico. Personally, I think the guy is on to something and could be playing with the next big innovation. One of the things that makes this site so great is the way we handle manufacturers. They are held to a higher standard to members and really put themselves out there for us. As a result, we need to protect them here as well, by not letting pissed off and sometimes nameless internet users run all over them when we don't want them to strike back.

So...we really want Enrico and PV active here and are going to make it comfortable for them given how out of whack some noobs made it for them last time. My guess is we will go a little overboard occasionally for the greater good...I know I have been accused of this before in the Cloud thread when we had to step in and calm things down over there. But when the pendulum is all the way to the left, you can't find the middle until you find all the way to the right first. If at any time someone is concerned and thinks we are going to far, please pm us to discuss. But don't do it in the thread...all that does is derail and clutter.

I think a lot of the problems are language issues, and we aren't going to allow any hint of derision about terms or definitions...that just too easily gets where we don't want to go. I spent some time following Enrico's explanation in MM's video I referenced above, and once I got through some language and stoner issues it all made sense to me.

 

[Tweek]

Nobody here is saying that you cannot ask a question...personally, I see a real trend for passive agressive attacks against the product and it's creator, which is really too bad . This thread is supposed to be for discussing the process of sublimation, not making fun of Enrico's wording or calling him out.

I was really hoping some of the more science minded of the forum would create a thread where laymen such as myself could learn more about the process in general. Instead, it's turning into more of the same

 

[stickstones]

The problem is there seems to be no need for this discussion. No one is sublimating cannabis anywhere and some people can't seem to let go of the name of the unit.

 

[Tweek]

Personally, this strikes me as a more appropriate discussion:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vapor-atomization.9814/#post-402732

 

[luchiano]

i think this is what is happening and i think it would be better absorbed if the dispersal of vapor in the air is better -- no clumps of vapor molecules, so more of the alveoli are touched without being squashed.

BUT, like I stated before, you would degrade a good amount of your thc into cbn. At first this effect is cool, because it feels like a relaxing effect on the body, but after a while it gets too draining on your body, and makes you feel lazy. This is one reason why smoking too much knocks you out, you get more cbn than usual. I also think this is another reason why vaping at temperatures over 400f gives the "stoned" effect.

This mixture of oxygen with thc, is most likely the reason why fish bowl type vaporizers have been shown to have more cbn then convection vaporizers. They allow the vapor to stay in contact with warm air too long, and degrade too much thc. I posted the study in another thread, I think. If I didn't here it is:

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v06n3/06359mj1.html

"However, the situation was complicated by the fact that the cannabinoids produced by the electric hotplate vaporizer were unusually high in CBN, leaving 30% less THC as a percentage of the total cannabinoids than with the other smoking devices. Since CBN is not psychoactive like THC, recreational users might be expected to consume more smoke to make up for the deficit. (The situation may be different for medical users, who could experience other, medicinal benefits from CBN). For this reason, it seemed advisable to recompute the performance efficiencies of the vaporizers in terms of THC, rather than all cannabinoids. When this was done, the electric hotplate vaporizer turned out to have a lower THC/tar ratio than the unfiltered joint, while the hot air gun was still marginally higher."

Also, being that you are inhaling excess air, those clumps that was broken down by the restriction, will clump together even more then they did before, due to cooling off faster then they would without the restriction, because now there is more surface area to come into contact with cool air. This is what diffusers in bongs do. This means less that will be absorbed into the alveoli. Most of it will be exhaled, and the rest will condense on the walls of the lungs. This is why cigarette smoke gives black lungs, a lot of the smoke is cooled off by the time it hits the lungs, and it just condenses on the lungs. If a cigarette does that, I would hate to see how using a large bong that cools the vapor a lot, and brings in a lot of dry air, does to your lungs. Especially if your lifestyle isn't that great.

BTW, taking b6 has been shown to help keep your lungs healthy, so that can help those who aren't that active. Apples, being rich in so much nutrients, have been shown to do the same thing but more so keep your lung capacity strong.

EDIT: I just found a reading on particle size of smoke/vapor, and where it goes into the lungs, as well as how it congeals together when cooled. It is a nice read on this subject.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10029&page=284
"The chemical nature of MS changes as smoke ages. The burning zone generates a highly concentrated vapor that is drawn down the cigarette to form mainstream smoke. The vapor cools quickly (in milliseconds) due to diluting air. Less volatile compounds quickly condense, mostly in airborne state. A combination of physical size and concentration affects both thermal and mechanical properties, which influence the number of particles in smoke. Droplets of less than about 0.1 µm will attach to the tobacco through which they pass or to other particles, which continue on into MS. Particles with sizes around 1 µm are “filtered” out by depositing onto the tobacco surface.

MS is a highly concentrated aerosol mixture. Smoke particles are liquid, consisting of approximately 20% water by volume. The particles vary
from less than 0.1 to 1.0-µm diameter. The small size and high concentration promote rapid coagulation, leading to decreased concentration and increased size of the resulting particles within less than a second. The size of particles also increases due to absorption of water, which is relevant for human smoking because of the high relative humidity of the human respiratory tract.
Sidestream smoke particles are smaller than MS particles initially. However, the aging of SS over a few minutes leads to an increase in particle size of ETS due to coagulation of particles and removal of smaller particles that attach to surfaces in the environment. Particle size in smoke is important, because it influences where within the respiratory tract a toxicant is deposited. Smaller particles, in general, deposit further down into the lungs.

Inhaled particles of the size found in tobacco smoke would be predicted to deposit mainly in the alveolar region of the lung. However, cigarette smoke-induced tumors are more prevalent in the bronchial region, suggesting that smoke particles deposit higher up in the respiratory tract than would be predicted from the initial particle size. (Recent increases of adenocarcinomas in lower airways of smokers are hypothesized to be due to so-called smoking compensation of low-yield products. Smokers of these products inhale more deeply to increase their nicotine dose.) Mucociliary clearance of inhaled particles up the respiratory tract may also increase the dose of particles to the upper airways. More importantly, the cloud-like nature of MS (see below) and the increased size of smoke particles on aging are responsible for this finding. Specific factors influencing the site of deposition in airways include coagulation of fresh smoke particles, absorption of water in the humid respiratory tract, human breathing patterns, aerodynamic interactions between nearby particles, electrostatic charge, and vapor deposition on airway walls (Dendo et al., 1998). Theoretical models of particle deposition predict that MS particles would have approximately 20% deposition in the respiratory tract. Measurements in humans suggest that deposition is actually much higher, from 50 to 95% (Phalen, 2000).

The explanation for this high deposition rate is that cigarette smoke is so dense, that it acts as a cloud. Clouds are high concentrations of aerosol particles surrounded by relatively clean air. They behave as entities that are much larger than the individual components. In depositing, the cloud behaves as if it were a much larger particle, with an aerodynamic diameter of approximately 6 or 7 µm. This particle size (see Figure 10–1) results in high total deposition in the respiratory tract, with especially high deposition in the tracheobronchial region."

 

[VaporEyes]

BUT, like I stated before, you would degrade a good amount of your thc into cbn. At first this effect is cool, because it feels like a relaxing effect on the body, but after a while it gets too draining on your body, and makes you feel lazy. This is one reason why smoking too much knocks you out, you get more cbn than usual. I also think this is another reason why vaping at temperatures over 400f gives the "stoned" effect.

This mixture of oxygen with thc, is most likely the reason why fish bowl type vaporizers have been shown to have more cbn then convection vaporizers. They allow the vapor to stay in contact with warm air too long, and degrade too much thc.

Remember, there are users who want, even more-so need greater amounts of CBN/CBD/etc to be extracted. That "stoned" effect is exactly what they pursue(like SliM). So is this truly a negative aspect?

BTW, taking b6 has been shown to help keep your lungs healthy, so that can help those who aren't that active. Apples, being rich in so much nutrients, have been shown to do the same thing but more so keep your lung capacity strong.

Didn't know that, thanks for the information.

 

[luchiano]

Remember, there are users who want, even more-so need greater amounts of CBN/CBD/etc to be extracted. That "stoned" effect is exactly what they pursue(like SliM). So is this truly a negative aspect?




Didn't know that, thanks for the information.

I'm not saying it's bad, but too much of it isn't good for your system, as it slows it down. In theory it would prevent you from getting high as time goes on. I know CBD does. I remember having that type of feeling, and after a while, it was not cool. I was too slow in my reaction time, and I didn't want to do anything active, which is not good for your health. There are better ways to get that effect, such as upping the temperature on your fist inhale to degrade some of the thc, or just eating it.

Ingesting would be better anyway, since the health effects that cbn gives would benefit your lymphatic system, which it can get to easily in your gut. That is where most of your cb2 receptors are located, being that it is where most of your immune system is located. Inhaling it through vapor or smoke, isn't that effective, at least compared to eating it with a monounsaturated fat, which gets absorbed into your lymphatic system, and helps heal your issue, instead of treat it.

 

[VaporEyes]

Ingesting would be better anyway, since the health effects that cbn gives would benefit your lymphatic system, which it can get to easily in your gut. That is where most of your cb2 receptors are located, being that it is where most of your immune system is located. Inhaling it through vapor or smoke, isn't that effective, at least compared to eating it with a monounsaturated fat, which gets absorbed into your lymphatic system, and helps heal your issue, instead of treat it.

The problem with ingestion is that it just takes far too long(3+ hours for me ) and is difficult to titrate. And for some conditions, there just isn't any healing, internally or externally, that can be done(yet). The pain can only be masking and tolerated, unfortunately.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

thanks, luchiano. good find on the info/articles. i think your analysis is correct. i wonder if the much higher temperature of a cigarette creating the MS vapor (1200°F) change the dynamics of the vapor and the effect on the alveoli.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

BUT, like I stated before, you would degrade a good amount of your thc into cbn. At first this effect is cool, because it feels like a relaxing effect on the body, but after a while it gets too draining on your body, and makes you feel lazy."

In theory it would prevent you from getting high as time goes on. I know CBD does...

Ingesting would be better anyway...

I am a 9 year contradiction to your theory. I use Indica the vast majority of the time. I love high CBD strains. I still get very high. I have plenty of energy and motivation. I am just more functional in my ability to handle the intense effects. When you get used to something the effect does not disappear, it is just your ability to cope with the effects that is changing/evolving.

For most people finding accurate reliable healthy edible medicine is hard to do. Allot of the mediables are made with sugar and resemble dessert more then medicine. The internal factors of your stomach can greatly effects the potency of the dose. A 100mg hash pill will hit me differently if I eat a fatty meal, or if I eat it on an empty stomach.

That is not good when you need a reliable repeatable experience. I can load my vaporizer with the same strain, set it to the same temp, take the same breath, and get the same effect every time if I want. That repeatability is crucial for someone suffering from a medical condition. When I throw my back out I need relief instantly. I don't have time to eat a capsule... I need to reach for my strongest CBD strain and vaporize it immediately.[/quote]

 

[luchiano]

The problem with ingestion is that it just takes far too long(3+ hours for me ) and is difficult to titrate. And for some conditions, there just isn't any healing, internally or externally, that can be done(yet). The pain can only be masking and tolerated, unfortunately.

Just use your herb like you would use a spice. There is no need to make butters, and things like that. There are a number of ways to do this. You can make a guacamole dip. This is good due to the high monounsaturated fat that is high in the avocado. You can eat 2-3 ounces of some type of nut or seed, and then just down the cannabis with some orange juice. Or make a nut/seed butter, then mix in the cannabis then eat it as a sandwich. Even an egg sandwich with some extra virgin olive oil is good. Just mix in the cannabis with the eggs, then cook it.

A gram is a good start to see if you need more less. Also, taking b6 with it helps with making the effects stronger due to decarboxylation.

I am a 9 year contradiction to your theory. I use Indica the vast majority of the time. I love high CBD strains. I still get very high. I have plenty of energy and motivation. I am just more functional in my ability to handle the intense effects. When you get used to something the effect does not disappear, it is just your ability to cope with the effects that is changing/evolving.

For most people finding accurate reliable healthy edible medicine is hard to do. Allot of the mediables are made with sugar and resemble dessert more then medicine. The internal factors of your stomach can greatly effects the potency of the dose. A 100mg hash pill will hit me differently if I eat a fatty meal, or if I eat it on an empty stomach.

That is not good when you need a reliable repeatable experience. I can load my vaporizer with the same strain, set it to the same temp, take the same breath, and get the same effect every time if I want. That repeatability is crucial for someone suffering from a medical condition. When I throw my back out I need relief instantly. I don't have time to eat a capsule... I need to reach for my strongest CBD strain and vaporize it immediately.

[/quote]

CBD in the long term effect thc metabolism, as it slows it down. Pure CBD, actually takes away your high, meaning if you take cbd, then take thc, you would barely get high. Also, most cannabis indica have been very low in CBD's over the years, at least in North America. It's recently that we are getting strains that are high in it. Just because something is an indica, doesn't mean it has CBD in it. Indicas or sativas usually have to do with how the plant grows. Also, a lot of the effects that we have been attributing to indicas or sativas, have actually been the essential oils(odor/flavor), and the thc giving the actual high.

Also, there are other cannabinoids that effect cb2 receptors that can take away the pain, like Beta-carophylene.

Here's a video on it:

mod note: Please avoid back-to-back posts, use Edit instead. Two posts merged.