Some thoughts about animal products...

[VWFringe]

vegetables scream too, you just can't hear them



friend told me that when i used to be vegetarian


what i saw in that movie's making me think about giving up ice cream, lol
just read that casomorphine may be why i've been addicted to ice cream, so i'm going to try giving it up, but am worried i'll get withdrawls

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Yeah I never understood why humans starting drinking from cows breasts. Its like if you really want milk your whole life even after being a baby, continue drinking human mother milk, be my guest. But how on earth does it make sense to drink a COWS breast milk designed for a new born calf?

I think its sad that people rely on milk when it is for calves, water is better anyday. why do you think people are lactose intolerant? BECAUSE we were never meant to drink it, hahaha. makes sense if you really think about it

We do not tolerate meat too ... we digest up to 10-30% of it... and its more energy consuming than giving..

vaping MJ+LSD+2CB+VARIOUS ENTHEOGENS + fresh vegetables and fruits.. +Super food + exesizing is better than
Crack/Speed/Pills/+Cigarettes+Liquor+KFC/McDonalds+Conservants+Coca cola+video games/whole day sittin in a chair/tv/facebook..

Healthy makes me feel good...

 

[WatTyler]

any science (evidence) with that?

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

any science (evidence) with that?

Sry my data was about raw and dried meat...
Cooked meat is more digestable i guess ,but science says that it takes very long time to digest it... Like 3-4 days...depends on your source Imagine what will happen if you eat meat every day .. or even 3 times a week ... and meat is highly acidic ... that also messes with your stomack.... if you don't balance your diet with alkaline products. Cancer grows in highly acidic medium..( thats why the lemon acid E330 is listed as cancer-o-gene )
Check this list if you are interested in what those E-numbers mean...
http://curezone.com/foods/enumbers.asp
http://curezone.com/foods/fatspercent.asp
also check this link if you wanna know just how powerful is the hemp seed oil... There is a comparison between it and other seed oils.. and there is nothing more full of essential fatties oil and in the perfect ballance for young people Ln:lna 1:3...
I am astounded of mj healing properties... Thats the most advanced plant in the world...

 

[WatTyler]

^ I've no problem what so ever with choosing not to eat meat. Even think it's pretty admirable.

But the reasons which you give for justifying it simply aren't true. I point again to the Inuit type cultures that traditionally live of a diet of predominantly seal, whale, fish and a few carbohaydrate roots and tubers. Or people like the Masai who mix blood and milk as a staple. These people are actually pretty healthy, dietarily (if that's even a word) at least, because they're eating a natural, unprocessed diet suited to their environment.

We will never agree on the things that we want to eat. That is all personal preference. But actually we surely must agree (I'm not sure ) that humans are actually extrordinarily diverse in the types of food stuffs that we have evolved to be able eat, and this is one of the key reasons for our success across the globe? Species like panda's who truly are only designed to eat a very narrow range of food stuffs are never destined for global (or long term) success. Humans, Rats and Cockroaches however.... eat anything, live anywhere There really isn't all that much natural food that is 'toxic' as part of a natural balanced diet. Raw red meat included, I'm afraid. Balance is the key word.

So we can not agree on meat and gypsies I'm with you on the E-numbers though.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

As far as gypsies ... I must say your opinion has greater moral value than mine... but i guess i speak of my experience and what i see every day... I know everyone's acceptance of the surrounding world is different but i wont ran from who i am.. I dont like unhealty and immoral people no matter what race,tribe, religion or whatever other cosmetic difference...

 

[Elluzion]

^ I've no problem what so ever with choosing not to eat meat. Even think it's pretty admirable.

But the reasons which you give for justifying it simply aren't true. I point again to the Inuit type cultures that traditionally live of a diet of predominantly seal, whale, fish and a few carbohaydrate roots and tubers. Or people like the Masai who mix blood and milk as a staple. These people are actually pretty healthy, dietarily (if that's even a word) at least, because they're eating a natural, unprocessed diet suited to their environment.

We will never agree on the things that we want to eat. That is all personal preference. But actually we surely must agree (I'm not sure ) that humans are actually extrordinarily diverse in the types of food stuffs that we have evolved to be able eat, and this is one of the key reasons for our success across the globe? Species like panda's who truly are only designed to eat a very narrow range of food stuffs are never destined for global (or long term) success. Humans, Rats and Cockroaches however.... eat anything, live anywhere There really isn't all that much natural food that is 'toxic' as part of a natural balanced diet. Raw red meat included, I'm afraid. Balance is the key word.

So we can not agree on meat and gypsies I'm with you on the E-numbers though.

Yes i agree in the way in which we can tolerate meat from being evolved to eat meat, but in the end it is not good for our health. It increases cholesterol rates, has unhealthy fats, is full of bacteria, and hormones and will only increase risks for cardiovascular disease.

 

[WatTyler]

Funnily enough I'm thankful we have had this discussion on gypsies, even though I have issue with your views on this. I've read more on it and it's opened my eyes to what is actually a pretty awful plight that is moving. So allow me to preach again for just a moment .

With the gypsies it's a cycle, and one that can't end until it's broken. And can we really expect the underdog to be the one to rise above this? There can be no doubt the gypsies have been massively mistreated- I didn't realise they were so persecuted in the Nazi holocaust for example- up to 1.5million dead, and proprtional to their population maybe lost more than the Jews- but it's largely ignored by the scholars and writers. It doesn't help that the Romany have few writers themselves- no voice in print. And so everyone is well aware of antisemitism following WWII, and it's not acceptable, but somehow antziganism is rife still across Europe. It's quite amazing, and I wonder what the history books will sway in a fe wmore generations. And still governments in Europe mistreat them.

Excuse me for sharing these quotes from wikipedia;

The Council of Europe Commissioner for Human Rights Thomas Hammarberg has been an outspoken critic of Antiziganism, both in reports and periodic Viewpoints. In August 2008, Hammarberg noting that "today's rhetoric against the Roma is very similar to the one used by Nazis and fascists before the mass killings started in the thirties and forties. Once more, it is argued that the Roma are a threat to safety and public health. No distinction is made between a few criminals and the overwhelming majority of the Roma population. This is shameful and dangerous

The practice of placing Romani students in segregated schools or classes remains widespread in countries across Central and Eastern Europe. In Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovakia, many Romani children have been channeled into all-Romani schools that offer inferior quality education and are sometimes in poor physical condition, or into segregated all-Romani or predominantly Romani classes within mixed schools. In Hungary, Bulgaria, and Slovakia, many Romani children are sent to classes for pupils with learning disabilities, regardless of whether such classes are appropriate for the children in question or not. In Bulgaria, they are also sent to so-called "delinquent schools", where a variety of human rights abuses take place

Roma make 2-3% of population in the Czech Republic. According to ??an (1998), Roma make up more than 60% of Czech prisoners and about 20-30% earn their livelihood in illegal ways, such as prostitution, trafficking and other property crimes.[34] Roma are thus more than 20 times overrepresented in Czech prisons than their population share would suggest.
The high crime rate and asocial behavior creates hostility of Czechs towards Roma. According to 2010 survey, 83% of Czechs consider Roma asocial and 45% of Czechs would like to expel them out of Czech republic.[35] The majority of the Czech people do not want to have Romanies as neighbours (almost 90%, more than any other group[36]) seeing them as thieves and social parasites. In spite of long waiting time for a child adoption, Romani children from orphanages are almost never adopted by Czech couples [how fucked up is THAT!!!]

In 2007 and 2008, following the brutal murder of a woman in Rome at the hands of a young man from a local Romani encampment,[57] the Italian government started a crackdown on illegal Roma and Sinti campsites in the country.
In May 2008 Romani camps in Naples were attacked and set on fire by local residents.[58] In July 2008, a high court in Italy overthrew the conviction of defendants who had publicly demanded the expulsion of Romanis from Verona in 2001 and reportedly ruled that "it is acceptable to discriminate against Roma on the grounds that they are thieves." One of those freed was Flavio Tosi, Verona's mayor and an official of the anti-immigrant Lega Nord. The decision came during a "nationwide clampdown" on Romanis by Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi. The previous week, Berlusconi's interior minister Roberto Maroni declared that all Romanis in Italy, including children, would be fingerprinted.
Opposition party member, Gianclaudio Bressa, responded by insisting that these measures "increasingly resemble those of an authoritarian regime". In response to the fingerprinting plan, three United Nations experts testified that "by exclusively targeting the Roma minority, this proposal can be unambiguously classified as discriminatory." The European Parliament denounced the plan as "a clear act of racial discrimination" and asked the Italian government not to continue

In Denmark, there was much controversy when the city of Helsingr decided to put all Romani students in special classes in its public schools

It amazes me that this is going on in Europe in this day and age. There are definate echos of pre 1939 Germany. I understand these social issues are a problem, and governments poor, but this is no kind of a solution. I know it's easy to say coming from a wealthy nation where the issues assocated with the romany are limited.

But I can never really blame the oppressed culture in my own mind. Similar situations have arisen wherever settled western cultures have attempted to live alongside culturally nomadic people (australian aboriginies, for example). The deal usually is 'if you can't fit into our new way of economically driven life, then fuck you. Die in poverty' That's modern progress I suppose.....

But all the time Governments and Authorities are acting like this I can see no way forward. If I was Romani I'd think 'fuck them' (everyone else) too, and probably have only a short term perspective on things.

But enough of my pontificating

You are an economist, no? You could probably better convince me of the logic in not eating meat from a production inefficiency and environmental sustainability perspective.

 

[crawdad]

Yes i agree in the way in which we can tolerate meat from being evolved to eat meat, but in the end it is not good for our health. It increases cholesterol rates, has unhealthy fats, is full of bacteria, and hormones and will only increase risks for cardiovascular disease.

well, i would argue (respectfully of course and not very passionate mind you) that all of those things you list as being bad in some way actually support a healthy human body in reasonable amounts. i think the introduction of various diseases and illness that are food related typically stem from either an overindulgence of something or partaking of a (normally) naturally healthy thing that has been either injected or raised on products (or in environments) that are bad for us and are in small ways passed through us..and when taken often those small ways add up to a big deal.

 

[WatTyler]

Yes i agree in the way in which we can tolerate meat from being evolved to eat meat, but in the end it is not good for our health. It increases cholesterol rates, has unhealthy fats, is full of bacteria, and hormones and will only increase risks for cardiovascular disease.

No evidence it's not good for your health when eaten in small quantities as part of a balanced diet. It does contain unhealthy fats, but so do some vegetables, and we're actually quite capeable of processing limited quantities of unhealthy fats with no negative effects. Cholesterol likewise. I have no problem with bacteria, strain dependent. Hard to avoid, to be honest. There's nothing dirty about meat except as some kind of human mental concept. Excessive meat consumption can potentially be a factor in cardio vascular disease, although it's hard to seperate from general cholesterol and fat consumption and may simply be due to increases in these substances. Doesn't mean that you will get it by eating meat by a long chalk. Lifestyle and wider diet is far more important.

Edit, I've pretty much echoed crawdad, sorry.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Glad to meet some real bright minds in here . My people eat a lot of pork... Do you know that pigs dont sweat... So its very hard for them to get rid of the toxins and antibiotics that are given to ...
If pig lives 4 years it would die of liver failure due to these toxins... Thats why they slaugher them on 1-3 years of age.

 

[VWFringe]

it's a pretty powerful statement that we could end world hunger, cut oil consumption globally by one half, and stop most of the climate change due to mankind (and end all fear of e-coli outbreaks) if we just stopped eating meat and wearing leather.

I just can't stand the degree to which they've hidden the reality of how these animals are being treated, I think I agree with the guy's points in this talk he gives at a college:
Best Speech You Will Ever Hear - Gary Yourofsky
Gary Yourofsky's Speech: Q&A Session

i used to think the negative's of factory farming had been mitigated by legislation and regulation, that the animals had some guarantee of a basic quality of life, until they were killed in a quick and painless manner.

(in his speach Gary Yourofsky says when he sees people scrunch up their faces at the idea of fake meat and cheeze, he asks them why something grown and processed seems disgusting, but when we bake bread up the ass of a turkey, we're making "ass bread," in the bacteria laden digestive tract of an animal that suffered so much and never did anything to hurt us, how is that not disturbing?)
ass bread
lol

EDIT: the speaches don't specifically mention oil consumption but other documentaries talk about how oil enables farming, and we know how much grain is used for feed, plus how much global oil consumption is used moving food around the globe, so there's a cascade of oil in meat. one way to put it,

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

White bread is full of gluten (i think it means glue in french ) and it sticks to you stomach walls and makes it harder for it to produce digestive juices... that are one of the most important things for our feeding...

 

[onox]

Just to comment on animal products, they are all ACIDIC,... they alter homeostasis in your body for the worse. vegetables, nuts, seeds, some fruits, are all ALKALINE, and nourish your body,. This ensures that your cells are getting a clean blood supply and you can recover faster from injury, and will have more radiant and healthier skin. This is just what I have experienced.. I'm meat, dairy, and animal product free as much as I can. It is a toxic world!

and p.s., pigs don't have a lymphatic system like we do to rid our body of toxins,, so guess what you are eating when you have a pulled pork sandwhich, ew!

Most foods and drinks period are acidic, and nearly all fruits are. So is your stomach. They're not going to affect homeostasis, it's not like you're mainlining them.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Just to comment on animal products, they are all ACIDIC,... they alter homeostasis in your body for the worse. vegetables, nuts, seeds, some fruits, are all ALKALINE, and nourish your body,. This ensures that your cells are getting a clean blood supply and you can recover faster from injury, and will have more radiant and healthier skin. This is just what I have experienced.. I'm meat, dairy, and animal product free as much as I can. It is a toxic world!

and p.s., pigs don't have a lymphatic system like we do to rid our body of toxins,, so guess what you are eating when you have a pulled pork sandwhich, ew!

Most foods and drinks period are acidic, and nearly all fruits are. So is your stomach. They're not going to affect homeostasis, it's not like you're mainlining them.

Most junk foods and cooked meals are acidic... but no many of the fruits.. even lime and lemon are alkaline
http://www.juicing-for-health.com/lime-lemon-health-benefits.html

 

[onox]

Most junk foods and cooked meals are acidic... but no many of the fruits.. even lime and lemon are alkaline
http://www.juicing-for-health.com/lime-lemon-health-benefits.html

I see the claim on that site but see no evidence to prove it. Lemons have a pH of 3, and there's no reason they would become alkaline (i.e. 10,000 times more basic) in the stomach.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

There is a study.. and even practice.... Comercial lemon juice with added Citric acid E330 has ph 2-3....
And lemon tastes acidic but it iss alkaline in stomach..

 

[VWFringe]

i think i heard a long time ago acidic fruit juices are neutralized immediately by saliva, but Gary Yourofsky says in his speach that eating meat raises the acidity in our blood, and he says the only way our bodies can neutralize it is by leaching phosphate out of our own bones, and as it does so it also leaches out calcium which is eliminated thru our urine, thus requiring so many calcium supplements and advertising space for them.
He says societies with the highest osteoporosis are also the ones that eat the most meat.

i'd like to hear someone counter the isht in his speech, that's some pretty powerful sounding and down to earth stuff, or seems to be.

 

[WatTyler]

.... that's some pretty powerful sounding and down to earth stuff, or seems to be.

That's what I think. He's clearly a clever, effective, convincing and powerful orator. But he's trying to use other arguments to support his personal philosophical stance on our relationship with animals and stop what he percieves to be morally wrong, rather than physically wrong. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to me that many of his arguments are actually supported by conclusive science, and so not quite as down to earth as it seems. In fairness though I didn't have an hour and a half to spare, so only dipped in and out for 10 min (hasn't stopped me making my judgement though- he lost me on one of his other vids whe he concluded "humans are the devil" ). But to me the little of his quasi 'science' content in his argument that I saw I thought to be little more than propaganda. Lots of theory and personal conjecture presented as fact to support his preconceived conclusion. Don't forget the objective of his speech is to stop people using animals/eating meat, not to include the potential health benefits of consuming a quantity of meat in a balanced diet. There is a wealth of information out there on some of the deficiencies that can develop in an unbalanced vegetarian diet, but that doesn't seem to be addressed (I'm presuming actually- as i said, i didn't watch it all)

I just don't believe we have the conclusive advanced dietary long term understanding that the vegetarian/vegan movement sometimes indicate, and so often there's conjecture presented as fact and law. It's just not that easy to evidence a causal relationship over the lifetime of people. Our diets and lifestyles are just so varied, and intertwined. Often people with a bad restricted diet also lead an unhealthy lifestyle in lots of other ways, and vice versa. Very difficult from a analytical perspective to separate these factors.

If things were that simple and clear cut we would already have a nice simple statistic of vegetarians live on average x years longer than omnivorous humans. Whereas actually some research has actually indicated the exact opposite (and some too that claims they do).


The animal rights issue is a different one, totally separate, and very personal to each individual conscience. Nothing to do with our physiology and metabolism. But it is a BIG issue- some animals are no doubt treated appallingly. But for me not to eat animals because of the way some are treated is the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bath water. I live surrounded by Highland mountain cattle and sheep, and they live a pretty good life out in the hills and it's just one stressful day at the end of their lives that's not nice (the mummy cows cry when their calves are taken to slaughter- just the separation, they don't know why). It's pretty sad, but the cycle of life. It could easilly have been another predator (I have a Golden Eagle nest under 200yds from my window- the farmer reckons it's had some lambs this year). I have no qualms from an animal rights perspective in eating those 'free range' animals.

t's a pretty powerful statement that we could end world hunger, cut oil consumption globally by one half, and stop most of the climate change due to mankind (and end all fear of e-coli outbreaks) if we just stopped eating meat and wearing leather.

I accept this rationale completely, and that one day might be the reason for humans to stop eating meat. It's just not efficient enough on an overpopulated world. And there WILL come a time that this is a serious issue, even if not quite just yet.

But it wouldn't 'end world hunger'. Most certainly not, and it's disingenuous to claim it would (not saying you, VW, I'm guessing this is a claim from the speech). People are starving because we produce food animals? Bullshit. At the moment it's not production that's the problem, but distribution. We can still produce plenty enough food to feed the 6.8 billion we have, but it's just not going to the right places.

Howeverr, whilst I agree with the economic principals, I'm not sure I agree about the magnitude- cutting oil production by half- that's an awful lot- It seems a gross oversimplification of our global energy economy- i reckon it hasn't accounted properly for alternative requirements. eg will need lots of fertiliser to produce all these vegetables- no more farm animals=no more animal based fertilisers- means more need for alternative chemical fertilisers- which is resource intensive to produce= lots of oil.

But I don't have any fact to back me up so I'm just guessing on this. Still, a 50% reduction just seems too much.

Fuck I wrote a lot. Sorry. Used my whole lunch break, plus some. And I still need to eat. One of the advantage of working from home i suppose.

 

[WatTyler]

Best Speech You Will Ever Hear - Gary Yourofsky
Gary Yourofsky's Speech: Q&A Session

I've got a really big and important report overdue, covering months of work, and I'm seriously procrastinating. I just watched all his speech and Q&A

I'm going vegan.







Well, maybe not quite. It's very interesting though, but not changed my initial conclusion. Quite striking to hear his interpretation of honey. Bee puke. Totally different to how I've ever thought of honey. It's always seemed to me like some kind of gift from nature, and so quite natural, wholesome and guilt free. I mean nearly everyone everywhere in the world loves honey. Sure the bees aren't to keen on giving it away, I suppose, but I've never even considered that fact. My eyes have been opened to the obvious.

So it's a totally different perspective. Yourofsky calls it 'Speciesism'. And he comes from the position that it's wrong. And I guess this is the fundamental concept that I can't quite accept. To me this 'Speciesism' is the very strategy of life- those of our species are on our 'team' as it were in the competition for our evolutionary branch to survive, as it is with every other species.


Oh, and he turned his dog vegan too. Apparently the vets were all convinced too once they saw his dog. Not sure if I buy that idea?

And, one more thing that made me laugh; he's been banned from the UK by our government for some reason, but he's marketing that as banned from 4 countries- England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland. Sounds more bad ass I suppose but fair play to him.

 

[crawdad]

i went vegan for about a year once however it was when i was young and full of bright ideas with little thought of how to do it...i did it wrong lets just say, got real weak and eventually just hamburgered my way out of it.

about 4 or 5 years ago i started on this life quest to know "why i do what i do" and have made many changes as a result and continue to do so, its more of a journey than a destination i hope to one day reach (led me to herb vaping as well). anyhow, food (or more properly put "anything that my body takes as input") was one item on the list and ive adjusted my diet to be more in sync (in my understanding at least) with that my body actually needs. im down to consuming meat about 2-3 times a week and each consumption is far less than i normally would take prior, some of the meat is actually local with no/little antibiotics and allowed to roam naturally. im even picky about water, RO 99% of the time.

my body has reacted to this with more energy, clearer thinking and a general health that is much improved. i have far fewer sicknesses to deal with and rarely have allergic reactions when before i got them a lot. the wife and 2 kids are included in this, it was a family thing, and we all have improved.

i think everyone should investigate why they eat what they eat. i know im not doing everything i likely should be doing (and yes, i cheat sometimes, especially went not home) nor do i think my ways are the ultimate best, just what ive decided for now.

here is a TED Talk that is informative, mark bittman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YkNkscBEp0

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

i went vegan for about a year once however it was when i was young and full of bright ideas with little thought of how to do it...i did it wrong lets just say, got real weak and eventually just hamburgered my way out of it.

about 4 or 5 years ago i started on this life quest to know "why i do what i do" and have made many changes as a result and continue to do so, its more of a journey than a destination i hope to one day reach (led me to herb vaping as well). anyhow, food (or more properly put "anything that my body takes as input") was one item on the list and ive adjusted my diet to be more in sync (in my understanding at least) with that my body actually needs. im down to consuming meat about 2-3 times a week and each consumption is far less than i normally would take prior, some of the meat is actually local with no/little antibiotics and allowed to roam naturally. im even picky about water, RO 99% of the time.

my body has reacted to this with more energy, clearer thinking and a general health that is much improved. i have far fewer sicknesses to deal with and rarely have allergic reactions when before i got them a lot. the wife and 2 kids are included in this, it was a family thing, and we all have improved.

i think everyone should investigate why they eat what they eat. i know im not doing everything i likely should be doing (and yes, i cheat sometimes, especially went not home) nor do i think my ways are the ultimate best, just what ive decided for now.

here is a TED Talk that is informative, mark bittman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YkNkscBEp0

I think you might have had omega acids deficiency,, Pot seed oil and some nice spirulina or green barley grass powder..would solve your problem.. Meat is so empty...
I suppose it is same in english ... Have you heard of Vega test >? They wire electrodes to your hand and test how your immune systhem responds to different foods and drinks and conservants.. I am not sure if thats what is happening.. But it just my guesses .. There are large lists of foods they test and can tell you if your body can digest them well.. ..We get fat because we cannot digest food...

 

[VWFringe]

I was most impressed with these points by Gary Yourofsky:
* we don't have to give up anything in going vegan
* we'll save money
* it's way beyond bumper sticker activism in it's actual effects
* some may agree or dis-agree with the ethical issues, but you can feed more people without feeding them meat
*there is a LOT of advertising pushing us to choose meat, dairy and eggs, and there is also a lot of advertising dollar behind the antacid and calcium supplements markets

Crawdad: I enjoyed that TED talk, thanks, nice to hear a moderate voice say the same things clearly...less carbon footprint, less suffering, better quality of life for humans, stop the USDA/Agri-business propaganda

i went out and bought several brands of fake ice cream on clearance, they'd all been re-frozen, so the texture was off, but they were ok - gave me a chance to try several without going broke since they're usually $4 each
...and the fake bacon burgers are good enough, even thought i got a piece of gristle, don't know how they improved the texture to the point they have, but the chicken seems like real meat, and the beef tips texture and flavor was good for frozen food, when brazed according to directions (i don't like any of it in the microwave).

 

[aesthyrian]

He says societies with the highest osteoporosis are also the ones that eat the most meat.

and drink the most cow milk, like the U.S. Funny, remember when they told us cow milk was good for bones because of the calcium? Well, it's practically one of the worst sources of Calcium you can find. We rule.

i went out and bought several brands of fake ice cream on clearance, they'd all been re-frozen, so the texture was off, but they were ok - gave me a chance to try several without going broke since they're usually $4 each
...and the fake bacon burgers are good enough, even thought i got a piece of gristle, don't know how they improved the texture to the point they have, but the chicken seems like real meat, and the beef tips texture and flavor was good for frozen food, when brazed according to directions (i don't like any of it in the microwave).

Let me suggest Coconut Bliss ice cream... SO GOOD. Better than cow ice cream by far, even my omnivore friends agree. Hemp ice cream is fucking great too! The best part of being vegetarian/vegan is HEMP! It can really open your eyes to how beneficial and essential hemp is.

 

[VWFringe]

Thanks Abysmal Vapor

lazy man's way to go green, i'm in.
or, "lazy man's activism."

hahaha