SideKick by Elev8 Vehicles

[Stu]

The problem is that the raised screen also heats up and so adds an element of conduction.

With all due respect to my good friend, this is simply not true. Unless the screen is also the heat source, there is no heat energy via conduction added by a screen in this configuration. First of all the laws of physics don't allow for it, and secondly I've done several experiments to demonstrate how a screen between the load and the heat source actually robs thermal energy from getting to the load (from a cold start). My youtube channel has a few videos about exactly this.

That is also why toast comes out of a toaster with a "shadow" where the metal cage gets between the heater and the toast.

 

[RUDE BOY]

Ask the fans of log vaporizers - see if they notice a difference in heater proximity and roasting tube mass.

... but logs are 100% convection, at least the way I use 'em so heater core proximity to the load is a big factor for sure, Roasting tube or stem 'Mass' not so much. I see No real need to heat-sink a stem for my Underdogs, drop the stem in/on the core and hit it, then remove until the next hit. my stems are only on the vape for the time it takes to raise it to my mouth and take a hit(or two) and removed before it's set back down.

I'd reserve any judgement on the Sidekick until we see a working unit though 'cause i didn't design it and haven't seen one yet.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

The grasshopper does a good job of insulating the chamber, a damn good job. But the thermal mass of the unit results in a similar situation to that stated above, to a lesser degree of course.

Can anyone enlighten me on the zion heater configuration? i cant see it well enough.
Similar with the elevape.



Totally forgot about the firefly, totally correct. Thats pure convection.

You imply that the Grasshopper is predominantly conduction like your vape? Have you used one? What makes you feel you can state your claim about the other manufacturer's product with certainty? Just wondering, as i personally do not believe your statement to be true but would happily like to hear more about your claim. You state it like it is fact. A little bold if you haven't been able to test the competition first hand yet.

The Zion and Elevape are certainly 100% convection. The ESV wasn't my cup of tea, and i am interested to hear more about your product but i am taken a back by some statements so far.

 

[pakalolo]

With all due respect to my good friend, this is simply not true. Unless the screen is also the heat source, there is no heat energy via conduction added by a screen in this configuration. First of all the laws of physics don't allow for it, and secondly I've done several experiments to demonstrate how a screen between the load and the heat source actually robs thermal energy from getting to the load (from a cold start). My youtube channel has a few videos about exactly this.

That is also why toast comes out of a toaster with a "shadow" where the metal cage gets between the heater and the toast.

Foo! I care nothing for your "laws of physics", they do not change the facts. Here's the test I have conducted, and repeated just a minute ago to make sure I didn't dream it:

1. Remove all screens from the FV, clean out the bowl.

2. Press and hold the button until there is no visible vapour rising from it. (There's usually a little.)

3. Place the ceramic spacer and screen.

4. Cover the screen in medium grind material, this time it was C-weed.

5. Press and hold the button until visible vapour rises, about 10 seconds.

If the FV spacer added true convection, this time should have been much much longer. Something heated up somehow. If the screen is blocking thermal energy from the load, where is that heat going? Could it be possibly, I don't know, heating up the screen?

I think my mistake was assuming that the FV was like the SK. As @natural farmer points out, most conduction heaters won't reach a temperature high enough for this effect to kick in. The FV Turbo, on the other hand, was once mistaken for a small sun. There's no doubt that the FV screen heats up, but in the SK the heater probably wouldn't be powerful enough to do this.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

You imply that the Grasshopper is predominantly conduction like your vape? Have you used one? What makes you feel you can state your claim about the other manufacturer's product with certainty? Just wondering, as i personally do not believe your statement to be true but would happily like to hear more about your claim. You state it like it is fact. A little bold if you haven't been able to test the competition first hand yet.

The Zion and Elevape are certainly 100% convection. The ESV wasn't my cup of tea, and i am interested to hear more about your product but i am taken a back by some statements so far.

To add to this the Firewood 3.0 just released its first run of units which as far as I'm aware are 100% convection.

 

[Stu]

If the FV spacer added true convection, this time should have been much much longer.

It's not convection, it's IR radiation. I found an interesting video (made by a rather handsome fellow) that explains this very topic.

If the screen is blocking thermal energy from the load, where is that heat going? Could it be possibly, I don't know, heating up the screen?

Yes, it heats up the screen via thermal radiation...that heat would've otherwise been applied directly to the load. The load and the screen are both being heated by IR radiation simultaneously. There is no extra heat energy being applied to the load by the screen. As I mentioned, the screen actually is robbing heat from the load in such a configuration. The vapor forms not because of the screen, but rather in spite of it. Here's a video demonstration showing how the load (in this case cardboard) stays cooler where the screen is in contact with it, blocking the IR radiation being applied to it from an infrared heater placed a short distance away.

I suppose we are drifting a tad off topic at this point. I think we should give ourselves warning points for derailing the thread.

 

[lwien]

Image just reminded me of one of these even to the scalloped sides

What is THAT ? ^^

What most people dislike about electronic conduction designs is the fact that the load is cooked between hits and that spoils the taste. Even worst it destroys efficiency as a lot of the good stuff in the load never reach the lungs.

Exactly the reasons why I don't like about conduction based vapes unless the heat can be instantly applied and removed, such as the MFLB. Oh, gotta add increased smell to the mix.

I think we should give ourselves warning points for derailing the thread.

Wrong. You should give each other warning points.

(now where's that damn "report" button.....)

 

[Shit Snacks]

Me too! i am also exited to get more products out there, i plan to be more involved in the entire production process so will be better positioned to speak on the matters on here.

I am not going to lie, i like conduction for situations where it is beneficial - like extended battery life after you have learned good technique. Though i am much more inclined to convective vaping so would be using a screen most of the time. The good thing about the screens is that the radiated heat maintains the bowl load temps between draws (due to the thermal mass of the heater, though the temp drops rapidly from vape levels it takes increasing longer as the temps lower, meaning the bud is kept warm but not enough to effect the cannabinoids. This allows a lower power requirement when re-heating the bowl meaning reduced wait times for the unit to reach temperature between hits. The effect on battery life has yet to be quantified.)

The oil can will allow use with concentrates much like the haze, though the addition of a small porous ceramic disk improves the quality of this experience in my opinion.

To clarify, with a suspended screen in the heater - the bud is separated from the heater resulting in more convective heat transfer with some radiative (think MFLB, but with less contact with the heating surface). The air enters the heater where it is heated and travels through the already heated bud to produce an increase in load temperature that constitutes convective extraction.

The suspension of the bud from the heater prevents contact with the heating surface, but allows the radiated heat from the heater to raise the temperature in the bud. If the heater temperature is set at 190c then you can assume the lost heat from the radiative process results in a load temp notably lower than this (especially when heating from cool). When the air is drawn through the heater it increases in temperature close to or just below the the heater temperature - this raises the load temperature to the level require for vaporization and produces vapour by convection. As the heated air pushes the temperature of the load from below vaporization temperature to the temperature required.

The heater would be disengaged before the draw had stopped which would lower the heater temperature to a level below vaporization temperatures, and the bud temps even more so.

The bud is still surrounded by warm air and radiative heat which keeps its temperature up so that when the heating process is started again the hot air combined with the added heat from the now powered heater pushes the temperature of the load to desired vaporization temperatures once more.

This is repeated with each draw, if you draw more frequently then the bud will remain at a higher temperature and will indeed degrade between hits. But hitting more often reduces the effects of this to a degree depending on how often you hit it. The less often you hit it the cooler the heater and load will be after each draw and the effect of degradation of the bud is minimized accordingly.

So if you are worried about conduction, use a screen to suspend the bud. If you hit it more often, there is much less time for the bud to degrade - Just disengage the heater for the last 3 or so seconds of your draw to lower the temps.

If you hit it less often, then the unit will have much more time to cool between hits and wont accumulate heat which would degrade the bud.

Conduction is good for heavy hitting quick, and uses less power. I can use small amounts of bud and roast it well for a quick top-up if required this way.

I understand the scepticism, i am a sceptical motherfucker myself! But there is alot that can be done to change the way a vaporizer operate by altering the heating configuration. I believe versatility to be beneficially personally.

The vaporizer also features a screen above the load which furthers the even heating of the load.

I am a huge fan of the MFLB crew and all they do, and like to employ the same technique based optimization that they do.

Not to say it doesn't function without these tips, but they can make a large improvement when you learn how to use a unit.

You can consider it to be like the solo style heating configuration when used for conduction/convection and a conductive modification on this when used with suspended screens.

Though the bowl size is larger than that of the solo but both of the devices employ the same method to pre-heat the incoming air.

Hot swapping batteries, an LCD screen, larger heater and extended cooling path are a few of the features that make the two differ of-course.

I hope that made sense, feel free to question anything that seems out of place.

It definitely sounds more versatile, perhaps capable of more than Pax Ascent Solo and Mighty, I suppose if I was brought back it would be a top of the line model like this. I know I would certainly like to try it some day regardless, and I'm sure it will find success if it is even 2/3 as versatile as youre describing...

That's what I love so much about the Zion, versatility with little sacrifice. It is very much like the child of an LSV and an MFLB dude, and somehow be cracked battery life too bc its fucking unbelievable how efficient given the power at play, I guess bc its purely on demand with the trigger, more manual vs the automatic session here. Yet it can still be sessioned extremely well too, against versatility. You should definitely check out that thread of you havent @Herb-nerd, great stuff

So yeah Iike what you're talking about here, definitely eases my skepticism a bit personally, you're involvement is a big plus. Keep it up!

EDIT: had to catch up on the next page!

Yeah so session, constant cooking even with the convection screen in place, still not my cup of tea but definitely serves a purpose in the vapor world for sure. And we need a high quality one!

To answer you questions about zion and elevape @Herb-nerd, they have a heater underneath the screen, for ESV it is a Ti coil that heats up with draw instantly to temp for 8sec then shuts off automatically or if you stop inhaling. Its always on and gets like 50-80 puffs. You can also do a mini puff and a full one after for more, its temp control isn't precise for the actual load itself though since it is so dependent on draw, very pure convection.

Zion has a stainless steel heater with a mica insulator and massive surface area all beneath its screen and 18mm female bowl, wide open airpath through hole in the wood underneath it. Load material in a 18mm glass stem like LSV, but basket style like an Underdog or E-Nano, adjustable for any size load and grind. The trigger heats up the element at a rate determined by the voltage dial, can be quick or slow, works well for temp control and simplifying technique for an open loop device.

 

[jojo monkey]

@lwien that vape in the pic is an ecapple iv-1. Very nice in many ways, but the heater is weak.

I can't wait to see the sidekick. I associate 7th floor with ceramic heaters and custom glass. Glad to see it cross over to a portable. Gotta say -1 for conduction, but +1 for the built in stirrer (which I assume would not work with a screen above the chamber).

Really happy to see proper temperature control; This should make it dumb buddy proof. I like when you can hand a vape over and say "just hit it" without worrying about burning herb.

 

[natural farmer]

Sorry for starting this derailing... Not the first time but we need to call a spade a spade around here as @Frank Reynolds said above, for the hundreds of forum members who don't get so much into details but could buy a Sidekick if they fall to the conduction/convection statements thinking: "Yeah! This is another Crafty like vape from a great company!!!"... I am pretty sure though this could be one of the best conduction vapes out there when out and with better taste than most similar designs due to the stirring and ceramic oven and I could very well buy it if I had the cash (steep price for sure)! There is always room for a session vape for a complete arsenal!

@pakalolo: about the screen above the heater in FV and everything you said, I think it all depends on the density of the screen. With such high density screens in the FV it is certain that heat will be robbed from the load but imagine a much coarser screen... Most of the radiant heat would pass through it and into the load. This is the exact configuration I use with my Vapman. I can touch the screen right after heating if I take it out! I get mostly radiation heating with this arrangement due to the shape of the Vapman bowl but with the Sidekick even with a coarse screen in there, the load is still heated from the hot sides of the cylindrical oven!

There sure are convection elements in every conduction or radiation design but there are so minimal they shouldn't even be mentioned imo...

 

[Herb-nerd]

Calling a spade a spade is not animosity.

I was simply picking up on tone and stating posts as bullshit.

... but logs are 100% convection, at least the way I use 'em so heater core proximity to the load is a big factor for sure, Roasting tube or stem 'Mass' not so much. I see No real need to heat-sink a stem for my Underdogs, drop the stem in/on the core and hit it, then remove until the next hit. my stems are only on the vape for the time it takes to raise it to my mouth and take a hit(or two) and removed before it's set back down.

I'd reserve any judgement on the Sidekick until we see a working unit though 'cause i didn't design it and haven't seen one yet.

Indeed, but my point is that changing the glass thickness and heater proximity changes the heat transfer to the load, noticeably so.

This discussion is absorbing a-lot of time while we all circle each-other trying to bolster our high school physics...

my legs hurt

 

[biohacker]

I was simply picking up on tone and stating posts as bullshit.

I don't blame you! I could empathize and feel that tone you are referring to. Shark tank!

This discussion is absorbing a-lot of time while we all circle each-other trying to bolster our high school physics...

I'm surprised you even try! Perhaps it's better to come and support the product once released? Otherwise, you're just giving your precious time away. But good on you if you have the time (which I know you don't lol)

 

[Herb-nerd]

HAHA exactly, i try to keep the facts known. Though the cost can be extensive with all the conjecture.

As soon as i can, i will post full specs and info.

 

[pakalolo]

I was simply picking up on tone and stating posts as bullshit.

You can point out what is inaccurate in a post but our rules don't allow you to call it bullshit. "Picking up on tone" is another way to get into trouble. If a post is hostile or belligerent, do not respond in kind. That is how flame wars start. Report posts that break the rules, ignore provocation or use a PM to respond.

Edit: To be clear, the comments above were meant for everyone.

@natural farmer, the FV screen is 300 micron and definitely will rob more heat than a coarser screen, but the power of the FV Turbo quickly overcomes that. @Stu caught me out on a bit of fuzzy thinking, but he knows that I know the difference because I was the one who helped him get the science behind his videos correct. That's why he's on my case here.

The Haze already uses a "convection screen" in much the manner described here for the SK. Here's what happens when I conduct a test similar to my FV test:

1. Remove the screen and clean out the Haze oven.

2. Heat up at highest temperature to burn off resin or debris.

3. Insert convection basket half full of medium grind C-weed.

4. Turn on heat at the highest setting and watch for vapour.

I saw vapour rising after about 35 seconds of heating, which is well before it reaches temperature. Leaving aside the physics of why this happens, my conclusion is that the amount of convection in the Haze is minimal at best. I will be interested to see how the SK performs in such a test.

 

[IAmKrazy2]

HAHA exactly, i try to keep the facts known.

You try and keep the facts known? Odd it seems you have sidestepped my last question about how you are able to make claims about another manufacturers device, presumably after never having seen one up close.

I was simply picking up on tone and stating posts as bullshit.

If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. I seem to be perceiving what you state as fact in several of your posts as actually being bullshit. And as the manufacturer this is the best response you can come up with? You certainly weren't hired for your people skills, eh? Keep it professional buddy. As a potential customer on this product i am again turned off by your lack of professionalism.

 

[HD Springer]

The good news is that 7th floor has a huge customer base that still loves the products that they have brought to the table. Albeit many years ago. The bad news in my eyes is the latest releases. Not this one yet. The 2 previously mentioned as being their latest releases.
I can't wait to see what this thing can do. And to be honest that's all any one can do. All we are going off is what 1 person perceives to be fact. However that won't get me to invest in a portable vaporizer that in my eyes could just very well be a Chinese manufactured vaporizer branded as a 7th floor product. I truly hope I'm 100% wrong. Because this thing promises a great deal of improvements on other conduction session type vapes. My problem is I love convection so this would have to be a grand slam to grab my wallet. IMO.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

HAHA exactly, i try to keep the facts known. Though the cost can be extensive with all the conjecture.

As soon as i can, i will post full specs and info.

I don't think all of this is conjecture when we have heard multiple times from multiple horses mouths (including your own) that this is a conduction based vaporizer. I mean if it isn't say so, but it is according to yourself and your other company representatives.

I'm not sure why you're trying to push so hard two conflicting ideas at the same time.1 That it is a conduction vaporizer, and 2. That it can be used as a convection vaporizer successfully.

And with statements like this:

I am unaware of any purely convective portables on the market?

I'd say it's pretty safe to say this thing wasn't designed with convection in mind.

 

[pakalolo]

I'm not sure why you're trying to push so hard two conflicting ideas at the same time.1 That it is a conduction vaporizer, and 2. That it can be used as a convection vaporizer successfully.

This is entirely possible. The FlashVAPE does this in two ways. Using the S2 spacer, you get convection if you do not overheat the load by holding the button down for as long as I did in my test. In normal use, you'd release the button after seven or eight seconds because by that time it is producing pretty thick vapour. If you hold it much longer, you will reach combustion.

Also, you can get guaranteed 100% convection by inverting the FV. This drops the load onto the (normally) top screen, which is about 15 mm away from the heater. The result is pure convection without risk of combustion.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

This is entirely possible. The FlashVAPE does this in two ways. Using the S2 spacer, you get convection if you do not overheat the load by holding the button down for as long as I did in my test. In normal use, you'd release the button after seven or eight seconds because by that time it is producing pretty thick vapour. If you hold it much longer, you will reach combustion.

Also, you can get guaranteed 100% convection by inverting the FV. This drops the load onto the (normally) top screen, which is about 15 mm away from the heater. The result is pure convection without risk of combustion.

Possible sure but highly unlikely. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Not sure why if this thing is so far in development and ready to ship by Christmas, they can't just explain how it works.

Also as someone else mentioned in this thread we can assume if using it with a jerry rigged screen to achieve convection vapor the unit's main feature that sets it apart from any number of conduction vapes (stirring while vaping) will no longer function.

 

[lwien]

One could say it provides an element of convection or maybe even better pseudo-convection.

Maybe quasi-convection is a better description, eh?

 

[vaporlee]

I remember when I first received funky looking limited edition holloween SSV deal with SK pre-order email then later that night this thread appeared; that was last wednesday and it's already 6 pages?!
Damn, that's lot of interest here.
I never had 7th floor product, but I almost pre-ordered if I didn't see this thread so soon. At least I could keep my ear open for this one if it was a 100% convection vaporizer similar to it's previous predecessors.
Unfortunately I already lost my interest on SK from manufacturer's previous posts. I really understand what @IAmKrazy2 is all talking about. This is joke..
I kind of smell some chow-mein here like the SSV penvape. (I' m no racist. I'm Korean)
This just could be another..
There are tones of other options such as Minivap, Lotus, Daisy, Lilly, TOD, Zion Single, and Cera, T1 for 100% pure convection portables. I expect every manufacturer should do enough market research (at least read other vaporizer threads here in FC?) upon their competitors prior to create any product or even idea or concepts.
Here in this community there are huge number of vaporizer enthusiast and specialists and we expect only 100% true based professional talk here please @Herb-nerd

Isn't this just a display added Haze v3?..

 

[Herb-nerd]

You can point out what is inaccurate in a post but our rules don't allow you to call it bullshit. "Picking up on tone" is another way to get into trouble. If a post is hostile or belligerent, do not respond in kind. That is how flame wars start. Report posts that break the rules, ignore provocation or use a PM to respond.

Edit: To be clear, the comments above were meant for everyone.

@natural farmer, the FV screen is 300 micron and definitely will rob more heat than a coarser screen, but the power of the FV Turbo quickly overcomes that. @Stu caught me out on a bit of fuzzy thinking, but he knows that I know the difference because I was the one who helped him get the science behind his videos correct. That's why he's on my case here.

The Haze already uses a "convection screen" in much the manner described here for the SK. Here's what happens when I conduct a test similar to my FV test:

1. Remove the screen and clean out the Haze oven.

2. Heat up at highest temperature to burn off resin or debris.

3. Insert convection basket half full of medium grind C-weed.

4. Turn on heat at the highest setting and watch for vapour.

I saw vapour rising after about 35 seconds of heating, which is well before it reaches temperature. Leaving aside the physics of why this happens, my conclusion is that the amount of convection in the Haze is minimal at best. I will be interested to see how the SK performs in such a test.

Hot air rising via natural convection is still... convection.
But i wont speculate on the set-up. You may well be correct.

Notes taken: i shall withdraw from discussion.

 

[7thfoorvapes]

More photos of the real deal to follow! No more blurry, CAD images LOL! Ride the Wave
- 7th Floor Vapes

 

[thekarmawhore]

So very stoked! Is the thumb wheel part of the stirring mechanism?

 

[lwien]

It's a boat propeller !!!!