Shitty people who create cool stuff

[8man]

I was listening to The Velvet Underground & Nico this morning and it got me thinking about shitty people who create cool stuff.

Lou Reed
Roman Polanski
Joni Mitchell
(etc, etc. this could easily turn into a VERY long list...)

Can you separate the artist from the opus? Or must they always be judged together? If you do judge them separately: at what point do you stop supporting the artist? Racist outburst, physical violence, pedophilia, murder, genocide?

 

[Tranquility]

I was listening to The Velvet Underground & Nico this morning and it got me thinking about shitty people who create cool stuff.

Lou Reed
Roman Polanski
Joni Mitchell
(etc, etc. this could easily turn into a VERY long list...)

Can you separate the artist from the opus? Or must they always be judged together? If you do judge them separately: at what point do you stop supporting the artist? Racist outburst, physical violence, pedophilia, murder, genocide?

Another issue has to do with the criteria you use when judging. Do we use the criteria of their time or the criteria of today?

For example, calling a black american "colored" back in 1909 (The year NAACP was founded.) would hardly be considered racist. Today? While we can't really put a label without knowing their intent (Well, WE can. But, you know what I mean.), I suspect the majority would vote that saying it today would be racist. It wasn't so many years ago that thinking boys and girls are different was not suspected of being a "phobic" (choose type) in some way. Now, it's a minefield of careful parsing.

 

[RUDE BOY]

What did Joni Mitchell or Lou Reed ever do to make you believe they're shitty people?

 

[8man]

Another issue has to do with the criteria you use when judging. Do we use the criteria of their time or the criteria of today?

For example, calling a black american "colored" back in 1909 (The year NAACP was founded.) would hardly be considered racist. Today? While we can't really put a label without knowing their intent (Well, WE can. But, you know what I mean.), I suspect the majority would vote that saying it today would be racist. It wasn't so many years ago that thinking boys and girls are different was not suspected of being a "phobic" (choose type) in some way. Now, it's a minefield of careful parsing.

This is all true. Although in some ways that "minefield" has always been there. Pregnant, punk, etc. there's many examples of terms we use now that we couldn't use before. The minefield is more of a mined shipping route except none of the mines are anchored down.

 

[8man]

What did Joni Mitchell or Lou Reed ever do to make you believe they're shitty people?

Maybe it was unfair to call Joni Mitchell a shitty person. She does have a record of going on angry tirades and has been accused of being physically abusive in the past. That probably doesn't qualify her as shitty, though.

http://jonimitchell.com/library/print.cfm?id=73
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/apr/23/bob-dylan-joni-mitchell

As for Lou Reed... there's a lot out there. Here's a very brief summary: https://www.thedailybeast.com/lou-reed-described-bob-dylan-as-a-pretentious-kike

Edit: I should emphasize that the three artists I listed are not my "Top 3 Shittiest Artists", just the first three that came to mind. I thought about putting Woody Allen in there, but I already listed Roman Polanski. You could probably do a list exclusively consisting of film directors. The more salient question for me is whether to accept/reject works by artists that might be shitty people. Joni Mitchell was a poor choice for the list. Feel free to include other examples, though.

 

[Fat Freddy]

What did Joni Mitchell or Lou Reed ever do to make you believe they're shitty people?

Hmmmm....I wonder too?

Maybe he doesn't like the color, Blue?

Or maybe he bristles when, "....all the colored girls went, doo doo-doo doo doo-doo doo doo-doo..."

Hard tellin'!

.

 

[RUDE BOY]

For Lou Reed information you shouldn't use anything Sounes wrote in his trashy book, most people close to Reed have said very little of it is based in truth.

 

[Tranquility]

Johnny Walker is just tryin' to walk on the wild side.

 

[grampa_herb]

Feel free to include other examples, though.

Lay off my Joni!

Gary Glitter, however...

 

[8man]

For Lou Reed information you shouldn't use anything Sounes wrote in his trashy book, most people close to Reed have said very little of it is based in truth.

Ended up reading some of the critiques of Sounes book and learned a lot more about Lou Reed. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[grampa_herb]

Ended up reading some of the critiques of Sounes book and learned a lot more about Lou Reed. Thanks for the heads up!

Very interesting guy. Saw an interview where he said he had been trying to leave NYC for 30 years.

 

[Mulchmaker]

Buddy Rich. Bad dude, incredible artist.

 

[8man]

Lay off my Joni!

Gary Glitter, however...

This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. If you're a big fan of "Rock and Roll, Parts 1 and 2" do you still shout "hey!" knowing what he's done?

(Total aside: has anyone who's not a security guard ever listened to this song while sober?)

 

[RUDE BOY]

Ended up reading some of the critiques of Sounes book and learned a lot more about Lou Reed. Thanks for the heads up!

Yeah, He wasn't always a nice guy to everyone around him but I don't think he was a shitty person.

I don't believe you should just dismiss any artists work based on their personality. Art is made by imperfect people striving to express themselves in an imperfect world. in today's world we may actually know too much about peoples personal lives. If we had this kinda access back in the mid twentieth century there may not have been a Golden Age of entertainment. If fans knew everything about the lives and lifestyles of their idols from the '40s, '50s, '60s cinema, theater, and music... entertainment could look very different today.

hope that makes sense. I don't think people involved in artistic endeavors like writing or things like photography, painting, sculpting are held to the same standards as those involved more in pop culture like singers/songwriters, musicians, actors and actresses (along with those who produce, write, direct, ect).

With people like Gary Glitter I couldn't sit through songs like "Do You Wanna Touch Me" "I love you, love me love" and "Oh Yes! You're Beautiful" when they were new and now they're just really creepy but an anthem like Rock and Roll part 2(the only version I have is the Time Lords doing it as "Doctor Who... daleks") will always be a classic to me regardless.

 

[grampa_herb]

This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. If you're a big fan of "Rock and Roll, Parts 1 and 2" do you still shout "hey!" knowing what he's done?

I love Polanski's early work and can appreciate it guilt-free, even though as a father his past actions sicken me. Maybe I have no soul.

 

[CarolKing]

There are movies that I won’t watch if they have Tom Cruise in it because I don’t like him. Mainly of his actions. I used to watch his movies.
The day he jumped up on Operah’s couch, that was it. He’s a nut case. The Scientology stuff is too bizarre. I’m not sure if he’s a shitty person?

I won’t watch Bill Cosby anymore, he’s a rapist. I know Cosby is a painter as well as an actor.

 

[Mulchmaker]

There are movies that I won’t watch if they have Tom Cruise in it because I don’t like him. Mainly of his actions. I used to watch his movies.
The day he jumped up on Operah’s couch, that was it. He’s a nut case. The Scientology stuff is too bizarre. I’m not sure if he’s a shitty person?

I won’t watch Bill Cosby anymore, he’s a rapist. I know Cosby is a painter as well as an actor.

I'm mostly in agreement with you on Tom Cruise movies, but I will always make an exception for "Legend", because Tim Curry + Ridley Scott + Tangerine Dream is enough to overcome my distaste for Tom Cruise any day of the week.

 

[8man]

I won’t watch Bill Cosby anymore, he’s a rapist. I know Cosby is a painter as well as an actor.

Bill Cosby's a good example, also makes me think of Louis CK. Both comedians I thought were very funny and talented (also both worked to help others off-stage) but now I'm not sure I can support what they do.

 

[macbill]

I can forgive Louis CK. He readily admitted to his deeds. Yeah, he really fucked up, but I don't want to think of a world without his humor.

 

[grampa_herb]

Bill Cosby's a good example, also makes me think of Louis CK. Both comedians I though were very funny and talented (also both worked to help others off-stage) but now I'm not sure I can support what they do.

Could you watch them on a re-run and enjoy? Is it more the idea that you do not want your money going to them?

 

[invertedisdead]

fame and fortune does nasty things to people

 

[8man]

Could you watch them on a re-run and enjoy? Is it more the idea that you do not want your money going to them?

I don't think it's necessarily about the money.

If a skin head group exhibited the watercolors of Adolf Hitler for free I wouldn't want to go out of personal distaste for the artist. Would the quality of the work matter? No.

However, I'm not sure if I'd feel so certain about someone who was much less horrible as a person and much more talented as an artist.

 

[Winegums]

I can't forgive artists who sellout to pop culture for money and fame, turning their backs on their roots. Greed is a terrible thing.

Taylor Swift
Courage My Love

I used to love their music but now I can't stand listening to them, even the older stuff that isn't tainted with pop BS.

 

[Tranquility]

I can forgive Louis CK. He readily admitted to his deeds. Yeah, he really fucked up, but I don't want to think of a world without his humor.

But, isn't part of his humor making jokes about his deeds? I remember the thing that struck me when the issue arose was that I remembered particular stories from his act that pretty much described the actions as a joke. I remember thinking he's just using comical exaggeration, until I found the details were actually true.

I think it much the same as with Al Franken. I remember a buddy telling me he wasn't really that bad because he didn't do anything real bad. (Cosby, Polanski, Weinstein, etc.) My reply was that Franken is WORSE. If you've seen his act (prior to the Senate), part of it is the bringing up of an attractive woman and then, basically, groping her with comic accidents as a joke. There are a lot of other, similar, jokes throughout his career. The fake grope with smiling leer photo that caused him to resign was not a one-off situation for his humor.

Now for my complaint. Who is more responsible for the treatment of women in our society in general? The person who sexually harasses his secretary or the comedian that makes it a joke? One does not reduce my abhorrence of the act and the other has me laugh at it.

Is the culture that has given rise to the need for a #MeToo movement more a result of individual choices to harass made by some or the result of media, including comedians, making jokes about it or otherwise treating it as nothing unusual?

 

[macbill]

Is the culture that has given rise to the need for a #MeToo movement more a result of individual choices to harass made by some or the result of media, including comedians, making jokes about it or otherwise treating it as nothing unusual?

Comedians mirror the culture. I think for many comedians, humor comes from a dark place in their psyches. Comedians mine their "frame of reference", or life experiences for humor. Their life experiences can be similar or different to the audience. They get laughs for shock value: using taboo words make people titter.

Louis CK seemed contrite when he fessed up to his crimes. He didn't try to minimize his actions. But everyone has the right to turn him off should he ever return to TV.