sap/wax turns buttery
- Thread starter jdgdtt
- Start date
eckstrakt
Member
thanks....this wasn't in a car but i did manipulate it a bit to separate it. i bet the heat from the friction did it while i was manipulating it.
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herbivore21
Well-Known Member
There are a number of possible ways that a given extract could change in consistency.
Many of the pictures in this thread, without naming names look a hell of a lot like underpurged concentrates with quite a bit of residual solvent swimming about.
This can make you think that you have 'sap' or 'wax' when actually, what you have is a shatter solution partially dissolved in residual solvent.
Over time, especially with exposure to open air, heat, etc - some of this residual solvent can come out of the product, making it seem more solid, having less give/stretchiness/sappiness.
Heat can of course degrade the actives in the extract too, THCA will degrade into THC and eventually CBN which do not have a solid crystalline form like the non-degraded version.
Further to this, remember that many of the compounds (notably terpenes) we extract from cannabis are hygroscopic - that is to say, they absorb moisture from the atmosphere around them. This is one potential source of the buddering effect. Remember to keep your concentrates in airtight containers (stored in a cool, dark and dry place) and only have a small amount of it outside of such a container at a time. Also remember especially for those using butane that water getting into your concentrate will make a mess of things - butane and water don't seem to be friendly to one another for our purposes.
I will also highlight that I have never had an extract that I have dewaxed autobudder on me or change consistency in the slightest, even when stored in a non airtight container exposed to the elements (I live in a super humid, frequently very hot climate too!).
Still, I have only worked with perhaps 5-10 different strains and we must remember that different actives in different strains may include constituent compounds which are more hygroscopic than others, or more likely to act as a solvent within the extract. YMMV depending on the strain you are working with.
Nonetheless, the first thing everyone needs to double check is that they have fully purged their concentrates. You need to be attentive and ensure that you get those bubbles out but don't leave the purge too long at the same time.
By the way, if you have lots of bubbles (especially large irregularly shaped ones), you still likely have a lot of solvent in your extract. Also generally, unless you have way overheated your extract or starting material or solution at some point, you should not end up with runny/sappy material.
Also your finished material should not stick slick and spread around on an oil slick mat when you try to remove it with a cool dabber. It should readily stick to your dabber and leave the mat, whether sap, shatter or wax (ie: whether it has some give in it or is rock hard!)*.
*a notable exception is that products that have had terpenes added or live resins with extremely high terpene content may have constituent terps which act as a solvent and may lead to some slickness to the mat. Still, unless you are flash freezing material that you have harvested straight off a plant in liquid nitrogen prior to running it, or added in terps artificially, this shouldn't be likely to happen.
Many of the pictures in this thread, without naming names look a hell of a lot like underpurged concentrates with quite a bit of residual solvent swimming about.
This can make you think that you have 'sap' or 'wax' when actually, what you have is a shatter solution partially dissolved in residual solvent.
Over time, especially with exposure to open air, heat, etc - some of this residual solvent can come out of the product, making it seem more solid, having less give/stretchiness/sappiness.
Heat can of course degrade the actives in the extract too, THCA will degrade into THC and eventually CBN which do not have a solid crystalline form like the non-degraded version.
Further to this, remember that many of the compounds (notably terpenes) we extract from cannabis are hygroscopic - that is to say, they absorb moisture from the atmosphere around them. This is one potential source of the buddering effect. Remember to keep your concentrates in airtight containers (stored in a cool, dark and dry place) and only have a small amount of it outside of such a container at a time. Also remember especially for those using butane that water getting into your concentrate will make a mess of things - butane and water don't seem to be friendly to one another for our purposes.
I will also highlight that I have never had an extract that I have dewaxed autobudder on me or change consistency in the slightest, even when stored in a non airtight container exposed to the elements (I live in a super humid, frequently very hot climate too!).
Still, I have only worked with perhaps 5-10 different strains and we must remember that different actives in different strains may include constituent compounds which are more hygroscopic than others, or more likely to act as a solvent within the extract. YMMV depending on the strain you are working with.
Nonetheless, the first thing everyone needs to double check is that they have fully purged their concentrates. You need to be attentive and ensure that you get those bubbles out but don't leave the purge too long at the same time.
By the way, if you have lots of bubbles (especially large irregularly shaped ones), you still likely have a lot of solvent in your extract. Also generally, unless you have way overheated your extract or starting material or solution at some point, you should not end up with runny/sappy material.
Also your finished material should not stick slick and spread around on an oil slick mat when you try to remove it with a cool dabber. It should readily stick to your dabber and leave the mat, whether sap, shatter or wax (ie: whether it has some give in it or is rock hard!)*.
*a notable exception is that products that have had terpenes added or live resins with extremely high terpene content may have constituent terps which act as a solvent and may lead to some slickness to the mat. Still, unless you are flash freezing material that you have harvested straight off a plant in liquid nitrogen prior to running it, or added in terps artificially, this shouldn't be likely to happen.
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DabComa
Stuck in Dab Coma
Great info and we'll worded thanks for clearing that up for people
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
A pleasure, my friend!
2clicker
Observer
good shit @herbivore21
eckstrakt
Member
awesome post!! info abounds!!! Thanks!!!!
Silver420Surfer
Downward spiral
Nicely put @herbivore21.
I sincerely wish everybody had access to top shelf, properly purged extracts. There is SUCH a big difference in how it tastes, how it holds up and keeps, how it vapes so clean off a nail, effects, etc.
Maybe off topic, but I have yet to sample any dark oil/shatter/wax, that has been remotely what I would call good(back in Florida or now in Colorado). Not knocking those with dark stuff, just not my bag is all. I shudder sometimes when I see what other people are willing to ingest so they can say they are "dabbing", or feel they are not missing out(Reddit is great for "what do guys think about this stuff", and it's usually a green/black tane soup-goop). And of course some other noob chimes in with, "I have some dark like that that tastes great!", which doesn't help.
Not all the light stuff I have seen in shops has been impressive by any means. It might be light color and stable(shatter), but terps are long gone. So I am not saying all light stuff good, dark bad. I would say all dark has zero appeal to me, and I would steer any of my friends from it, and SOME of the light stuff, is super fire. But all in all, my belabored point is, you can't go by color alone, but safer lighter than dark, in my experiences, every time.
My name is Silver420Surfer, and I am a concentrate snob. In my mind, I am a professional cannabis concentrate sommlier, nothing to see here.
I sincerely wish everybody had access to top shelf, properly purged extracts. There is SUCH a big difference in how it tastes, how it holds up and keeps, how it vapes so clean off a nail, effects, etc.
Maybe off topic, but I have yet to sample any dark oil/shatter/wax, that has been remotely what I would call good(back in Florida or now in Colorado). Not knocking those with dark stuff, just not my bag is all. I shudder sometimes when I see what other people are willing to ingest so they can say they are "dabbing", or feel they are not missing out(Reddit is great for "what do guys think about this stuff", and it's usually a green/black tane soup-goop). And of course some other noob chimes in with, "I have some dark like that that tastes great!", which doesn't help.
Not all the light stuff I have seen in shops has been impressive by any means. It might be light color and stable(shatter), but terps are long gone. So I am not saying all light stuff good, dark bad. I would say all dark has zero appeal to me, and I would steer any of my friends from it, and SOME of the light stuff, is super fire. But all in all, my belabored point is, you can't go by color alone, but safer lighter than dark, in my experiences, every time.
My name is Silver420Surfer, and I am a concentrate snob. In my mind, I am a professional cannabis concentrate sommlier, nothing to see here.
herbivore21
Well-Known Member
Lol, from one concentrate snob to another, I can say I have had dark shatter that was incredible, but this being said it was still super clear shatter that you could absolutely see through.
I find that the lightness or darkness (as well as hue, I've had more amber/brown shatters from some strains, more yellow or orange ones from others) varies to some extent based on strain (again though, clarity is still crucial, if it ain't see-through, it's not good enough IMO!) and especially age of the starting material.
I have used some very long term cured high quality bubble hash to make shatter out of which came out reasonably dark (compared to flowers from the same source which were nowhere near as aged), this has been the only dark shatter I've produced in a long time! It has also kept as perfect absolute rock hard shatter for many months now (although I really have very little left lol).
DabComa
Stuck in Dab Coma
I never noticed you asked , I use a tube just big enough for 28g with just one ss mesh filter, don't know the mesh size but it's very very fine, doesnt let any visible matter through and I feel like it allows many more actives through then just a coffee filter, or with both.
And my posts on page one were intentionally under purged in order to demonstrate my point
BoogerMan
Well-Known Member
Is the overall general opinion "butter/auto buttering is bad?"
I actually don't mind butter at all. I used to prefer shatter because of the beauty and stability, but now I think butter is much easier to work with... aka shards of shatter don't fly everywhere when I try to get a dab on my dabber
(I know I can heat the dabber a little but I don't want to have to do that lol). I always seem to find small chunks of shatter all over my house: on the floor, counter, fridge, desk, clothes, on my damn phone screen, etc 
so butter is fine by me 
Anyways, back on topic, after many years of blasting I have found many factors that cause buttering, pretty much all of which were covered by the genius, @herbivore21.
Humidity, temp, hours purged - all play a key role in auto butter. Even the amount of time and humidity level of the curing process probably plays a role. Fresh material that hasn't even been dried will almost always butter because of moisture, but also because of the higher amount of terpenes. If all of those are covered and you are still getting butter then it's definitey the strain.
I have found that genetics play probably the biggest role. Some strains are just known to auto butter (whether immediately during the purge or shortly after).
I also cannot stress enough the importance of a long purge to remove all the residual solvents.
I normally purge for a minimum of 3 days for runs <14g, and a minimum of of 5 days for runs >28g. I flip the slab about every 8 hours.
It makes me cringe when I talk to someone new and I ask them how long they purge when they process an oz and they say 30 hours at 100F
They say that the shorter purge time helps keep it like shatter 
As that is true, it is also disgusting to dab concentrates that have butane in them 
I would rather have crumble/butter for the rest of my life than dab tane shatter. Would you rather have a tane shatter slab to show off or be healthy? I choose healthy because then I will live longer and be able to take more dabs, or whatever the hell we will be doing in 50 years
30 hours at 100F simply isn't long enough to remove all the residual solvents. If a much higher temp was used then yeah 24 hours would be more than fine, but not at anything below 110F like some people do.
One trick I like to use (besides watching the larger irregular bubbles) is looking for a rainbow shine on the bubbles. Shining a phone camera flash light on it helps make the rainbow shine more distinct. Once these stop appearing (look very closely, even some small bubbles can have the rainbow shine) and all of the bubbles are small and consistent in size then you should be good. But that normally takes 3+ days with 6 or more flips at 110F (5+ days with 10+ flips for larger runs).
As stated before, dewaxing will always end in a clear, very stable, and brittle shatter. Sometimes it will be sappy (seems to be strain specific), but the majority of the time, especially if purging below 110F, it will be hard as glass, double especially if you use Methanol
More info about winterizing/dewaxing with Methanol:
http://fuckcombustion.com/posts/764531/
I actually don't mind butter at all. I used to prefer shatter because of the beauty and stability, but now I think butter is much easier to work with... aka shards of shatter don't fly everywhere when I try to get a dab on my dabber
(I know I can heat the dabber a little but I don't want to have to do that lol). I always seem to find small chunks of shatter all over my house: on the floor, counter, fridge, desk, clothes, on my damn phone screen, etc so butter is fine by me Anyways, back on topic, after many years of blasting I have found many factors that cause buttering, pretty much all of which were covered by the genius, @herbivore21.
Humidity, temp, hours purged - all play a key role in auto butter. Even the amount of time and humidity level of the curing process probably plays a role. Fresh material that hasn't even been dried will almost always butter because of moisture, but also because of the higher amount of terpenes. If all of those are covered and you are still getting butter then it's definitey the strain.
I have found that genetics play probably the biggest role. Some strains are just known to auto butter (whether immediately during the purge or shortly after).
I also cannot stress enough the importance of a long purge to remove all the residual solvents.
I normally purge for a minimum of 3 days for runs <14g, and a minimum of of 5 days for runs >28g. I flip the slab about every 8 hours.
It makes me cringe when I talk to someone new and I ask them how long they purge when they process an oz and they say 30 hours at 100F
They say that the shorter purge time helps keep it like shatter As that is true, it is also disgusting to dab concentrates that have butane in them I would rather have crumble/butter for the rest of my life than dab tane shatter. Would you rather have a tane shatter slab to show off or be healthy? I choose healthy because then I will live longer and be able to take more dabs, or whatever the hell we will be doing in 50 years
30 hours at 100F simply isn't long enough to remove all the residual solvents. If a much higher temp was used then yeah 24 hours would be more than fine, but not at anything below 110F like some people do.
One trick I like to use (besides watching the larger irregular bubbles) is looking for a rainbow shine on the bubbles. Shining a phone camera flash light on it helps make the rainbow shine more distinct. Once these stop appearing (look very closely, even some small bubbles can have the rainbow shine) and all of the bubbles are small and consistent in size then you should be good. But that normally takes 3+ days with 6 or more flips at 110F (5+ days with 10+ flips for larger runs).
As stated before, dewaxing will always end in a clear, very stable, and brittle shatter. Sometimes it will be sappy (seems to be strain specific), but the majority of the time, especially if purging below 110F, it will be hard as glass, double especially if you use Methanol
More info about winterizing/dewaxing with Methanol:
http://fuckcombustion.com/posts/764531/
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tepictoton
Well-Known Member
My experience is that butter seems to improve in time... Seems like it sometimes?
Visually shatter is more appealing but I have to admit to myself that the nicest tasting dab I ever took was butter made from venom og...
I personally let the material do its thing... If it likes to butter, you are welcome, shatter, nice one....
As long as it is purged sufficiently...
Visually shatter is more appealing but I have to admit to myself that the nicest tasting dab I ever took was butter made from venom og...
I personally let the material do its thing... If it likes to butter, you are welcome, shatter, nice one....
As long as it is purged sufficiently...