Saionara Atomizer thread

[tennisguru1]

Sorry for the long reply

Thanks for the info...I'll watch your vids too soon as I can, it sounds like it is the Motar glass you're using. I'm going to try that needle mod of yours (Luer lock?) what gauge is it?

TG says: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Stainles...13-Gauge-LW-/181768817801?hash=item2a52440c89

On the Motar...

• Yes 38 watts.

Instructions on rear of box: "Please noted: 30-45W recommended"

• I've only burned out one coil.
• For a longer rip I might pulse it once or twice?
• I'm only placing 1-2 hits worth in it, size of a BB or less.

https://www.fasttech.com/product/9624538
been using it for over a year.
Can't be TC'ed Fun & close but great idea, poorly implimented.

(On the pulsing, I haven't used it for about a month and memory's failing)

The coil itself isn't actually fried, it will still fire if you could get a connection, the problem is the crap way the coil is built, the positive coil leg that runs down to the 510 isn't soldered or attached in any legitimate way, it's just the pressure of the rubber insulator holding the wire against the copper tip. Many times I had to get in there and clean the wire and re-seat it to get it to work. This was happening even when I kept it under 30w. It finally got to the point where the rubber piece is shot and I couldn't get it to stay working. Pity about the poor connection because the coil element itself can take a hell of a lot of abuse.

I know, have taken them apart & put coils in to rebuild, still wires, lol.

The dealer where I bought the Motar recommended 20-30w, so I kept it under 30w for a long time and it did work great, but later thinking about why the Mfg recommended higher wattage and though what the fuck, why not try cranking it up? So I did and was surprised with the results, which had me thinking the company's objective on this piece was to try and simulate the performance of an actual dab rig, am I on the right track?

It's just done badly, great Idea, I think Matt at DT is working on the real deal with QQV4?

Curiosity grabbed a hold of me and I tried to get scientific about it, got out my multi-meter with temperature probe and started taking readings inside the bucket while glowing. (It's the kind of temperature probe that just looks like solder tinned wire at the tip, so you hold it right against whatever you're measuring) At 38w I was getting readings between 450-550 degrees.

I'm not any kind of expert on this shit, and although I do own a rig (Recycler) I don't have extensive experience with them, but I recall reading an article that talked about temperatures - high temp and low temp dabs - as I recall 450-550 degrees was either a low or medium temp dab. And the Motar almost instantly achieves 400-500 degrees - so there you have it, mini-simulated-dab-rig on a 510 fitting!

Truth is I need to fuck around with it some more and maybe try TC mode too, but my thoughts now were instead of spending $15 on another Motar coil maybe I'll just put the money towards a SAI and start over. I hope the SAI coil isn't built like that inside.

I do need to get that Arizer Mini Whip to try this through my rig, also noticed this:
Arizer Elbow Adaptor
I believe is the same thing without the short piece of hose, for $1 less.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DYAFIU0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Also found these:
HydroBrick Whip Connectors
Launch Box Draw Whips
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LYUAMX1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have to admit you've got me curious and excited to see how this SAI performs. For on-the-go devices I'm currently using Miracle-B coils, but thinking I'd like to try the quartz bucket setup in my Teslacigs Stealth mod. With an atomizer attached the whole unit fits well into the coin pocket of a pair of jeans. It's slightly smaller than a Pico 75w mod with no atty.
Sai now kickass with the Ti Skillet or the Quartz cup & the Saicule combo coil is the only one I can use on bare SS tasty coil

Here's a photo of a SAI in a Stealth like mine:
Cool, wowser!

Found it in a review of SAI/Stealth combo:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Waxpen/comments/7cx1s5/one_year_with_the_saionara_a_review_and/


I do like the Espion 200 mod, looks like it has a solid feel. I'm currently trying to decide on a mod for a Stempod, looking at several but I'd like to find one to use for all 3 devices SP, SAI and Motar. The Espion is slightly taller than all the others under consideration and I want to try and keep the whole Stempod setup reasonably short, I'd also prefer a centered 510 connector.

I love the Mirage & my Therion Purple Ostrich dual, they have SS conectors and have
been at a level of accuracy that I am selling everything but the Espion 200 with Red Panda a Keeper.

Probably not getting a DNA mod soon, but I did notice this Lost Vape SKAR DNA75 a few bucks less than the Mirage and it has a centered 510 and it uses a higher capacity cell (26650 instead of 18650/20700/21700)

If I get a SAI I'll have to try that Mole coil, "Awesome taste" from a metal coil made me curious. I gave up on bare metal coils a long time ago because of bad taste, found I was getting superior flavor with ceramic donuts and miracleB.

It Blows my mind, I am a coil hatter !
I love this thing, especially when you either use the Poseidon bubbler
or the Motar all glass straw top on Sai, Mole and any 22mm atty.
https://www.fasttech.com/product/9624538

 

[Hackerman]

Hey gang, without having to go through this entire thread, did I hear there's a quartz bucket available for my Sai? I never use it any more since I don't like Ti buckets but if they have a quartz bucket, I'm in.

I love my Motar but it's nice to switch up now and then. A quartz bucket would bring my Sai back to life. I just cleaned it and posted it for sale. Maybe if I can get the quartz bucket, I'll keep it.

Thanks

 

[DJ Colonel Corn]

Hey gang, without having to go through this entire thread, did I hear there's a quartz bucket available for my Sai? I never use it any more since I don't like Ti buckets but if they have a quartz bucket, I'm in.

I love my Motar but it's nice to switch up now and then. A quartz bucket would bring my Sai back to life. I just cleaned it and posted it for sale. Maybe if I can get the quartz bucket, I'll keep it.

Thanks

You have the Sai TAF version right ?

Yes, there are quartz buckets available, and they are interchangeable with the titanium heater.
Which is good, because, it's a better heater.

You can find the quartz bucket coils usually in stock right here on PIU, one of the sites FuckCombustion recommends officially.

The quartz is indeed great !
I would normally agree on not using titanium, but, in the case of this bucket, I get no metal taste or off-gassing, it's great.

Enjoy !!

 

[Hackerman]

Awesome. I am ordering it as we speak.

Thanks again @DJ Colonel Corn

 

[tennisguru1]

Awesome. I am ordering it as we speak.

Thanks again @DJ Colonel Corn

These are on sale at
https://www.amazon.com/SODIAL-Stain...3J33436YNDB&psc=1&refRID=1RD6GGH3W3J33436YNDB

Put them in the top of the Motar glass over the Sai & Mole
Lower tip to bowl level, leave it alone, no fingering necessary, lol.
You can fasten it with a silicone ring seal from any broken cart or atty.
I use silicon gasket makes high heat seal.

 

[Hackerman]

Cool, thanks

 

[tennisguru1]

Cool, thanks

Cool , had a bunch of diff ga's but the Bigger 12ga makes it like
a bubbler without the water. I blew a big globe for myself to attack
with a 14mm glass stem, but ig got broken on a pass, lol :>0
So I went to simple Motar's at $6 DHG or whole motar at FT $15
1' should be good, I have long 1 1/2 " that I cut down for each atty.

 

[LambsBreath]

Yes, there are quartz buckets available, and they are interchangeable with the titanium heater.
Which is good, because, it's a better heater.

The quartz is indeed great !
I would normally agree on not using titanium, but, in the case of this bucket, I get no metal taste or off-gassing, it's great.

Enjoy !!

Wondering why the titanium heater's favored over the one that comes with the quartz? It looks like the titanium one has a regular ceramic donut coil inside and the quartz one has a flat skillet style coil.

@Hackerman I got my quartz bucket from HVT (same price but free shipping at PIU)

I wish PIU would stock the glass mouthpiece tips.

 

[DJ Colonel Corn]

Wondering why the titanium heater's favored over the one that comes with the quartz? It looks like the titanium one has a regular ceramic donut coil inside and the quartz one has a flat skillet style coil.

@Hackerman I got my quartz bucket from HVT (same price but free shipping at PIU)

I wish PIU would stock the glass mouthpiece tips.

I've been using the titanium bucket after using the quartz for a while.
Reasons :
1. The effect of oil running uphill from the heat (there's a word for this, forgot), caused oil to rise up over the edge, and it spilled some oil between the bucket and heater, staining the ceramic heater. Result ? Dead heater within weeks.
2. Larger surface area.
3. Quicker heat-up/cool-down.
4. Seems easier to clean.

One tip that @tennisguru1 showed me, was the fact that the quartz and titanium buckets are interchangeable, and the donut heater used on the Ti bucket is superior in regards to longevity, than the solid disc used on the quartz bucket.

I've always been a quartz / glass guy, so I natrually wanted to use quartz. However, after some experience with the Sai TAF, I now use the Ti bucket.

 

[LambsBreath]

While looking at the Joytech Espion 200w dual I came across this Espion Solo 80w, thought it could be good for the SAI as an on-the-go portable.

• Compact size
• 21700 cell

Can anyone say if it's upgrade-able to to AF software? (assuming yes because it's Joytech?)

https://www.joyetech.us/espion-solo-with-procore-air.html

https://www.fasttech.com/product/9640659-authentic-joyetech-espion-solo-80w-tc-vw-apv-box

 

[tennisguru1]

I've been using the titanium bucket after using the quartz for a while.
Reasons :
1. The effect of oil running uphill from the heat (there's a word for this, forgot), caused oil to rise up over the edge, and it spilled some oil between the bucket and heater, staining the ceramic heater. Result ? Dead heater within weeks.
2. Larger surface area.
3. Quicker heat-up/cool-down.
4. Seems easier to clean.

One tip that @tennisguru1 showed me, was the fact that the quartz and titanium buckets are interchangeable, and the donut heater used on the Ti bucket is superior in regards to longevity, than the solid disc used on the quartz bucket.

I've always been a quartz / glass guy, so I natrually wanted to use quartz. However, after some experience with the Sai TAF, I now use the Ti bucket.

from Olde7 sent 2 hours ago

Ok, here ya go. To do temp control, the mod must be constantly measuring coil resistance to a very high degree of accuracy at high resolution. Resolution to 0.000001 ohm, 0.001 milliohm or better. By comparison, a professional technician or engineer is very unlikely to have an ohmmeter capable of such accuracy at anything like the resolution we require. If they do, it is an expensive single purpose tool. Our mods (particularly dna, yihi, and voopoo) are doing something very difficult, when they measure resistance this way. Doing so in a handheld device is near miraculous.

Thinking about that, monitoring minute resistance changes in real time while heavy current flows, in an electrically very noisy environment (internal circuit noise really fucks with the resistance measuring function) - while considering temp control of wire whose resistance changes very little with increasing temperature, like Stainless steel....

Stainless wires' resistance changes so little (low tcr value) many mods struggle with tc. A truly miniscule increase of resistance equates to large temp increase, compared to titanium for example. 3 to 5 times the temp increase. The lower the wires' tcr, the more difficult tc becomes, because of this. SS tc didn't work because of this, in the 'early days' of tc mods.

Getting good tc with Ti wire is a challenge, doing so with ss is very difficult. These mods, especially dna, yihi, and voopoo - are technical marvels for this ability!It's worth noting that complex wire like ss clapton poses unique challenges. Being made of several electrically parallel connected wires that touch. This causes micro changes in resistance while powered, until the coil is strummed and oxidized, which greatly reduces but doesn't completely prevent. It speaks very well indeed for the quality of avs wire that it works so consistently well.

 

[psychonaut]

I'm looking at the TAF SAI with quartz bucket for rosin on the go. Is that going to be what I want as far as easy to clean and best flavor of the offerings? I have no problems cleaning or loading my quartz motar and think this would be a nice replacement without the giraffe necked mouthpiece. Seems like I could stow it away much easier since it's like all my other e-cigs.

 

[tennisguru1]

I'm looking at the TAF SAI with quartz bucket for rosin on the go. Is that going to be what I want as far as easy to clean and best flavor of the offerings?

OK, my friend here we go, all just opinions as I have different uses as most.
I use the Sai as a stay at home e-nail station.
When I go out to Tennis court I use a small ccell 92% pure distllate.
Or a Loaded up Mole , for 3 hrs of fun
When I am graced by my Bud Bob's Rosin & bubble Hash
I use the Ti bucket as it gets to temp in 2 secs & cleans up easy pizzy.
I use the QC of other stuff as sauce & diamonds, my prefer

I have no problems cleaning or loading my quartz motar and think this would be a nice replacement without the giraffe necked mouthpiece. Seems like I could stow it away much easier since it's like all my other e-cigs.

I just about ONLY use the Sai & Mole with Motar top & 12ga SS Straw
at Bowl level with 6in whip on so ic can tilt & get no reclaim at all.
What people are missing is the STRAW allows a Vortex without
carbing spinning like a silly shit. Really takes away from my calm.
I like siting back & watching the Flow & gauging my Breath Control, as the QQ.

Amazing how many have just poo poo this, I'm laughting at anyone that
is so lame to put down anything so great WITHOUT trying it first belongs
on Twitter, lol. :>)
It beats the Sai TAF & Mole with posidion bubbler.
If you notice they use a form of my needle straw.
I blew a bigger globe to sit on my Sai Taf with a 14mm
all glass stem, but I took pic down because I deluged on Reddit
by peeps who wanted one. I am retired Gaffer & got too
dangerous with as high as I was crafting, I quit before
fire or eviction, lol. :>)
Everyone knows I prefer buckets sipping at low temps,
but the New Mole/Sai coil from AVS are unreal in no waste
& great taste in a $5 disposable atty?
If your good with coils, get a Mole & do your own for $1
Same experience. If you need any help PM me :>)

 

[Hackerman]

I just about ONLY use the Sai & Mole with Motar top & 12ga SS Straw
at Bowl level with 6in whip on so ic can tilt & get no reclaim at all.
What people are missing is the STRAW allows a Vortex without
carbing spinning like a silly shit. Really takes away from my calm.
I like siting back & watching the Flow & gauging my Breath Control, as the QQ.

Amazing how many have just poo poo this, I'm laughting at anyone that
is so lame to put down anything so great WITHOUT trying it first belongs
on Twitter, lol. :>)
It beats the Sai TAF & Mole with posidion bubbler.
If you notice they use a form of my needle straw.
I blew a bigger globe to sit on my Sai Taf with a 14mm
all glass stem, but I took pic down because I deluged on Reddit
by peeps who wanted one. I am retired Gaffer & got too
dangerous with as high as I was crafting, I quit before
fire or eviction, lol. :>)
Everyone knows I prefer buckets sipping at low temps,
but the New Mole/Sai coil from AVS are unreal in no waste
& great taste in a $5 disposable atty?
If your good with coils, get a Mole & do your own for $1
Same experience. If you need any help PM me :>)

Do you have a pic of your rig. I use a straw also. The long glass stem from my E-Nano also works as a nice cooling stem.

 

[tennisguru1]

Do you have a pic of your rig. I use a straw also. The long glass stem from my E-Nano also works as a nice cooling stem.

Right now i'm hitting the Sai Ti Skillet with Just the Motar glass top with a 12 ga SS Luber lock hollow syringe in top hole drop to 1mm below TI Cup , 7" silly Whip on Moter glass
Pictures & video are on this & other threads, back a few pages.

 

[710/420]

Hi everyone, totally in over my head with my eleaf Pico 75w / taf Sai for a few days now and just flashed AF and have been using the ti bucket for now.

Getting some nice vapour at default settings but I wanna try my Clapton Coil but have not found much info, I did search but a quick one. I don't want to mess around with it before I get some guidance.

 

[KeroZen]

Reminder for those installing AF or myevic and variants: you need to enable the PI(D) controller in the TC config otherwise you'll still be using the default (crappy) TC implementation.

 

[tennisguru1]

Reminder for those installing AF or myevic and variants: you need to enable the PI(D) controller in the TC config otherwise you'll still be using the default (crappy) TC implementation.

Thx for that, I did that a long time ago, wonder if that's Dan's problem with TC
on SS with Espion 200?

 

[tennisguru1]

Hi everyone, totally in over my head with my eleaf Pico 75w / taf Sai for a few days now and just flashed AF and have been using the ti bucket for now.

Getting some nice vapour at default settings but I wanna try my Clapton Coil but have not found much info, I did search but a quick one. I don't want to mess around with it before I get some guidance.

It depends what coil you have?
Is it the Crossing one or the HVT?
They are different, I passed on the crossing/PIU one
as the HVT is the Molle SS316L coil I know.
If its that one, SS 316 or L and 14 - 15 watts lock resist at .38 - .42

 

[KeroZen]

wonder if that's Dan's problem with TC
on SS with Espion 200?

That I don't know. My remark was more to complement your post above about the difficulty of performing temperature control by extrapolating small resistance changes. Because on top of that, the trifecta (Joyetech/Eleaf/Wismec) have a very poor TC implementation out of the box.

One could even add that most of the 510 mods on the market (at least all convection ones for dry herbs) tend to use a resistance value that is way too small and below the recommended range for SS. The lower the resistance the smaller the change, the smaller the change the harder to detect for the ADC.

 

[tennisguru1]

That I don't know. My remark was more to complement your post above about the difficulty of performing temperature control by extrapolating small resistance changes. Because on top of that, the trifecta (Joyetech/Eleaf/Wismec) have a very poor TC implementation out of the box.

One could even add that most of the 510 mods on the market (at least all convection ones for dry herbs) tend to use a resistance value that is way too small and below the recommended range for SS. The lower the resistance the smaller the change, the smaller the change the harder to detect for the ADC.

Yes I hear you lol,
I just got some Lost Vape DNAc mods & 6 out of 10 of my attys that
couldn't no longer TC now All works perfect. Ecolv & Escribe are freaking
awesome with the chip set features. Got rid of most of my Evic's, keeping the Espion 200 with Red Panda only one close to correct, lol. Poor peeps who think its them, its Joyetech
crap 510 connects and more.

About the PID is that per slot or is there a default PID on/off.
I have been playing with PID (clueless) just seeing what it does for inserts.

 

[KeroZen]

Per profile slot in AF.

 

[tennisguru1]

Per profile slot in AF.

Yes, so that's what I have been doing.
Just trying it on & off to see difference to my main prime settings.
Now I guess all I have to learn is what the numbers mean, so lame on new stuff.
Seems you just master one thing and wham he comes another variable to try
and master , lol.
Ty KeroZen for your help and patience

 

[KeroZen]

I assume you are using AF? You just have two coefs to setup: P and I (there's no D term in AF but it's in my_evic and derivatives) At first your mod will likely overshoot a lot, so in order to avoid having your heating element go pop, perform your experiments at a low temperature.

Then use AF live monitor and watch closely the "live temperature" line. You'll need also to set the Y axis to have the maximum zoom level. Display also the "set temperature" line. Then you'll need to tweak P and D, upload settings and go back to the live monitor.

The goal is to try to have as little overshoot as possible (I prefer if it tends to undershoot actually) when not drawing but at the same time it needs to not collapse too much when you draw (playing with the max watts settings common to TC settings helps here, as we have no D term)

"I" must be much smaller than "P" usually. Start with P=500 and I=80 and experiment around that. There are some methods to fine-tune PID controllers but you'll have to learn that on your own. But doing it empirically works too.

 

[710/420]

It depends what coil you have?
Is it the Crossing one or the HVT?
They are different, I passed on the crossing/PIU one
as the HVT is the Molle SS316L coil I know.
If its that one, SS 316 or L and 14 - 15 watts lock resist at .38 - .42

I'm not sure which, it was ordered from theherbcafe in canada. the only coils (not sure if thats the correct term) I have are the ti bucket, quartz bucket, and crushed clapton. Only the ti bucket has been used so far. And would really like to try the crushed clapton coil asap. Any help would be much appreciated, I only have the one and don't want to fry it.

Also I really have no idea what the different profile settings are for other than the one for the bucket. Would I have to manually edit the profile for the crushed clapton coil? I feel like I'm making this more difficult than it actually is.

from the site: We are the official Saionara distributor for Canada and were first to carry the Saionara atomizers, coils, accessories and parts anywhere in the country. We are their most trusted local source.

Edit: tried to insert image of my coil, also just found out it's from crossing tech.