Random thoughts

[florduh]

My favorite thing about climate change deniers is their belief that scientists, most of whom make well under $100k, will lie "to get more funding". But the global oil industry, which makes over $5 trillion per year, is too good and pure and honest to spread lies about the inevitable consequences of their product.

It's amazing to me that the movie "Merchants of Doubt" came out almost a decade ago. The oil industry used the same exact playbook as Big Tobacco. Paying quack scientists to spread bullshit about their product. They even used some of the same exact "scientists" who claimed cigarettes didn't cause cancer. And all the Conspiracy Big Brains couldn't even notice that.

 

[coolbreeze]

My favorite thing about climate change deniers is their belief that scientists, most of whom make well under $100k, will lie "to get more funding". But the global oil industry, which makes over $5 trillion per year, is too good and pure and honest to spread lies about the inevitable consequences of their product.

It's amazing to me that the movie "Merchants of Doubt" came out almost a decade ago. The oil industry used the same exact playbook as Big Tobacco. Paying quack scientists to spread bullshit about their product. They even used some of the same exact "scientists" who claimed cigarettes didn't cause cancer. And all the Conspiracy Big Brains couldn't even notice that.

It's like Covid: a refusal to recognize the situation because the team's official position is that it's untrue. Doesn't matter if your own home just slumped down the hill because of the thousand-year storm that put out the wildfire that raged all summer, it's "fake news." Fealty to the lord's lie of the day is the problem, simple us-v-them stuff.

 

[cybrguy]

Sadly, and somewhat surprisingly, the drive towards wealth is the number one force motivating humankind. It is not love or understanding or cooperation or any of the social needs that we really do have as a species. We have somehow convinced ourselves that wealth will bring all of our social needs more easily within our grasp. That makes it possible for that one desire, the accumulation of wealth, to be the driving force of all that we do and the excuse we use to ignore the plight of those who, for whatever reason, are not or refuse to be on this money train barreling down the track ignoring the societal destruction it's purely economic engine and message leaves in its wake.

It's not everyone, of course. There are absolutely winners and losers. But it appears, generally, that the winners don't give a shit about the losers and the fact that the vast majority of them (us) have no hope of ever getting past the barriers that exist between the rich and the poor. Because, after all, fairness is not the point. And that is particularly true among those with generational wealth, family wealth that goes from generation to generation and completely locks out anyone who is not part of those families. They will do anything they possibly can to make sure that wealth stays within those families including insisting on legacy admissions to "important" colleges and universities and all of the perks that go along with having a name that matters.

One might expect that those with the generational wealth, those with the money that "belongs to them", might understand the need to protect their future generations by making an effort to save the planet from its inevitable destruction from neglect. But for whatever reason, they only look backward, not forward. They seem to revel in their history and what they've accomplished over their generations, but ignore the danger to their own future. They seem to believe that their wealth will protect them, and I'm sure it will for a while. But the only way to protect yourself from forest fires is to move somewhere else. The only way to protect from flooding is to move somewhere else. The only way to protect yourself from the disappearing water supplies is to move somewhere else. And those somewhere elses are starting to disappear. And that should be visible to anyone with their eyes open. And there seems to be no way to open their eyes...

 

[DrJynx86]

I am afraid that we waited too long to address climate change. It appears that we are in a climate emergency and I have my doubts that we will ever leave it. Yet there are still millions who refuse to address it or do anything to reduce its damage even now.

There is nothing to be done on the emissions front, scientists need to focus on other ways to cool the planet.

 

[florduh]

the drive towards wealth is the number one force motivating humankind.

This is the only part I disagree with. The "it's human nature" argument. But even if you're right, we shouldn't write every rule in society to incentivize the worst aspects of human nature. That's the source of every one of our problems: Bad incentives.

It's up to humans, what kind of society we want to build. It reminds me of when that Elon Musk type guy got thawed out in the 24th century:

There is nothing to be done on the emissions front, scientists need to focus on other ways to cool the planet.

This is a really bad plan. But it is the plan the governments of the world are going with. Do nothing and pray we invent some sort of magical technology that saves our asses. This isn't a good plan because we're sort of in a time crunch.

 

[olysh pops]

I am afraid that we waited too long to address climate change. It appears that we are in a climate emergency and I have my doubts that we will ever leave it. Yet there are still millions who refuse to address it or do anything to reduce its damage even now.

Some believe that the mistake began at the end of the 18th century, when our species discovered and used coal (then oil) for heating. Those who made these choices did so to improve their well-being, without being able to anticipate the consequences.
From this perspective, we can't blame anyone for having taken this path.
Our species has prospered, thanks to this energy. Far too much, as other species have experienced
If the giraffes had found oil and an interest in it, the problem would have been the same.
That's why some people prefer to talk about the "oil-ocene" instead of the "anthropocene".

source

 

[vapviking]

If the giraffes had found oil and an interest in it, the problem would have been the same

"The truly unique trait of 'Sapiens' is our ability to create and believe fiction. All other animals use their communication system to describe reality. We use our communication system to create new realities. Of course, not all fictions are shared by all humans, but at least one has become universal in our world, and this is money."
Yuval Noah Harari

 

[GoldenBud]

"The truly unique trait of 'Sapiens' is our ability to create and believe fiction. All other animals use their communication system to describe reality. We use our communication system to create new realities. Of course, not all fictions are shared by all humans, but at least one has become universal in our world, and this is money."
Yuval Noah Harari

this is an epic sentence man. big super like.

but, without money, nobody would build buildings, nobody would make cars, clothes.... it's not fiction, it's according to Newton's first law:
Wikipedia quote : "Every body continues in its state of rest, or of uniform motion in a straight line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it.[13]: 114 "

nobody would move from his chair.... money makes people move..... sad but true!
nothing is perfect? in our world?

 

[Bologna]

Some believe that the mistake began at the end of the 18th century, when our species discovered and used coal (then oil) for heating. Those who made these choices did so to improve their well-being, without being able to anticipate the consequences.
From this perspective, we can't blame anyone for having taken this path.
Our species has prospered, thanks to this energy. Far too much, as other species have experienced
If the giraffes had found oil and an interest in it, the problem would have been the same.
That's why some people prefer to talk about the "oil-ocene" instead of the "anthropocene".

source

And yet some will take it back even further, to humankind's push north and the need for crops and technology etc... or go back even further to the use of FIRE to prepare the protein rich meals (with the help of of what would become K9s) that allowed our brains to become enormous (human).... and on and on... meh, all just "theory"... were you there? Thought so.

Edit: did you know all pure bred English Bulldogs can only be birthed by cesarean...? Why is that? How can that be?

We'll be there soon enough, ourselves, if we aren't already, ftmp...

 

[florduh]

but, without money, nobody would build buildings, nobody would make cars, clothes

Buildings and clothes predate the invention of money. That Harari fellow is a historian.

I also think about my time playing Skyrim VR. The best gaming experience I've ever had. But it wasn't the best because of the product Bethesda charged money for. That product was trash. No, it became the best experience because hundreds of modders spent thousands of unpaid hours making it into something amazing.

I don't think we're ready for a moneyless society yet. But I also don't think the only reason anyone does anything is to make a dime.

Our species has prospered, thanks to this energy.

I agree. Fossil fuels were a miracle. For a while. But it's time for humanity to grow up. Almost a quarter of the way through the 21st century and we're still using dirty emphysema causing dinosaur blood?

 

[GoldenBud]

I don't think we're ready for a moneyless society yet. But I also don't think the only reason anyone does anything is to make a dime.

(I am not a religious man tho) The "Torah" said that the man has an evil side since his youth.... so if there's no money in the world, and nobody gains a dime for his job... nobody will work... sad but idk... it seems like most people are lazy and have an evil side inside of them... so without money nobody would do anything :/

we're not ready for a moneyless society yet, absolutely, imho too....

 

[Bologna]

(I am not a religious man tho) The "Torah" said that the man has an evil side since his youth.... so if there's no money in the world, and nobody gains a dime for his job... nobody will work... sad but idk... it seems like most people are lazy and have an evil side inside of them... so without money nobody would do anything :/

we're not ready for a moneyless society yet, absolutely, imho too....

This is the reason why religion was invented and supported... to keep us from running around killing and stealing from each other (remember the 10 commandments?) and give us morals, but more importantly guilt.. and that's all fine and good until we learned better... WAR... Religion is just a tool to control the masses.

But what have we learned? What has actually changed?

 

[GoldenBud]

This is the reason why religion was invented and supported... to keep us from running around killing and stealing from each other (remember the 19 commandments?) and give us morals, but more importantly guilt.. and that's all fine and good until we learned better...

Exactly, to limit us as "animals" from doing bad stuff etc'.... and fill our free-time with reading about the religious stuff etc'.... like a forced-hobbies for generations by generations......like the people invented god/religious stuff said "well, we got advanced brain, we got too much time.... it can cause bad stuff.. what sould we do? ah! we write mythes and call it religious!"

But what have we learned? What has actually changed?

nothing, but it fills some people's time and enables them not to do bad stuff in their free-time..... sad but true.... i still find it hard to believe people "Saving Shabbat" etc' these days..... these stuff are so old.... nothing lives forever.....

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

This is the reason why religion was invented and supported... to keep us from running around killing and stealing from each other

Actually, religions have killed a lot and have stole from a lot of people...

Gold from the Incas ? Stole in the name of god.
Inquisition ? Murder in the name of god.
Church-traps for republicans during the Spanish civil war ? Mass murder in the name of god.

And I'm only talking about Spanish Catholic Church here. But think how the pyramids have been built : stealing and murdering others humans.

 

[Bologna]

Actually, religions have killed a lot and have stole from a lot of people...

Gold from the Incas ? Stole in the name of god.
Inquisition ? Murder in the name of god.
Church-traps for republicans during the Spanish civil war ? Mass murder in the name of god.

And I'm only talking about Spanish Catholic Church here. But think how the pyramids have been built : stealing and murdering others humans.

Dude, that's what I'm saying (tho many say it and have said it much more eloquently)... take it all the way back to the inception of the concept...

Edit: "They", you know, "scientists", the peeps smarter than me, say our brains are virtually unchanged since at least 200,000 years ago. That means they were capable of the exact same "thought" (for lack of a better word?) we use today.

Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer - SNL

Kinda dated, but u get the idea....

 

[Vitolo]

 

[GoldenBud]

you guys think eventually the "industries" will reduce the world's temperature somehow? i heard some companies work on creating an enormous PVC screens (i think? or something that can send back some energy......) that will be set between Earth to the Sun and will reduce around 1.5 degree celsius or so....

 

[cybrguy]

This is the only part I disagree with. The "it's human nature" argument.

You misunderstand, or maybe I expressed it poorly. "Human nature" clamors for the basic needs of life, which Maslow said were "physiological, safety, love and belonging, esteem and self- actualization". It is the sickness of our current society that has led us to believe that money is the way, and the only way, to get these needs satisfied. While money, some money, may be a necessary part of our society today, I don't believe it is the most important part, or the only way in which these needs can be satisfied. Some of them may be better satisfied, at least for many of us, by NOT being part of the class of people who hoard all the cash. Many would be unhappy being associated with a class of people who were so self serving as to cause others, many millions of others, to suffer unnecessarily.
Added: And those are the people who, should they make it into the monied class, give it all away or use it for the advancement of humanity, rather than using it for their own personal aggrandizement.

 

[Knewt]

you guys think eventually the "industries" will reduce the world's temperature somehow? i heard some companies work on creating an enormous PVC screens (i think? or something that can send back some energy......) that will be set between Earth to the Sun and will reduce around 1.5 degree celsius or so....

My optimistic opinion is if they do succeed in slowing or reversing global warming, it will come with a huge ecologically cost.

 

[Canna Chameleon]

You misunderstand, or maybe I expressed it poorly. "Human nature" clamors for the basic needs of life, which Maslow said were "physiological, safety, love and belonging, esteem and self- actualization". It is the sickness of our current society that has led us to believe that money is the way, and the only way, to get these needs satisfied. While money, some money, may be a necessary part of our society today, I don't believe it is the most important part, or the only way in which these needs can be satisfied. Some of them may be better satisfied, at least for many of us, by NOT being part of the class of people who hoard all the cash. Many would be unhappy being associated with a class of people who were so self serving as to cause others, many millions of others, to suffer unnecessarily.

If you’re going to quote maslow and talk about money as a means of achieving self actualiztion, then I’ll echo that with Herzberg’s motivation theor. That says that money is only a motivator until basic Maslow needs are covered, then it becomes a demotivator. That is to say, once you are making a fair wage that supports your basic needs it no longer motivates you to the higher levels. Not getting paid enough can make you less motivated but there are other factors that motivate people more. Those are recognition, growth, and achievement.

 

[GoldenBud]

My optimistic opinion is if they do succeed in slowing or reversing global warming, it will come with a huge ecologically cost.

I agree. Can't find the paper but I was reading somewhere some universities work on that

 

[Bologna]

When do these "thoughts" cease being "random"...?

Just another (not so random) thought...

 

[Canna Chameleon]

When do these "thoughts" cease being "random"...?

Just a thought...

Was that a random thought? Or perhaps one that was randomly provoked by the prior series of posts? In which case it’s as random as stream of consciousness. Which by the way have you ever tried to write or read in the style of stream of consciousness? Very random.

 

[cybrguy]

Where else in this forum other than a thread called "random thoughts" can one wax philosophically?

At least without getting your post deleted...

 

[Bologna]

Was that a random thought? Or perhaps one that was randomly provoked by the prior series of posts? In which case it’s as random as stream of consciousness. Which by the way have you ever tried to write or read in the style of stream of consciousness? Very random.

Meh, "opinions"... don't get me started on them...! (Even tho I'd be sure to avoid the more obvious "cliches"...)