Preserving Terpenes?

I'm finding myself stuck between two schools of thought regarding filtration and terpenes:

1. Too much percolation/water filtration will cause terpenes to be absorbed by the water, or being cooled so much that they stick to the glass

2. Too much air in a piece will cause loss of terpenes simply by diffusing too much, aka if your bong is too big then bye bye terpenes

I have noticed that MJArsenal heavily markets around the idea that too much air in a piece means too much loss of terpenes. Have you ever noticed your mini rigs being more effective on a medical level? Do you think they actually preserve terpenes in a significant way?

Followup question: any other mini pieces I should be considering?

Thanks!
 

invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
So you’re dealing with multiple facets here:

You’ve got water soluble terpenes which can be uptaken by the water, condensation which will cause oil to fall out of phase and stick to the glass, and then dealing with dead space = oxygen which could result in oxidized terpenes. Also since bigger bongs generally contain more water and more surface area for condensation to occur, which could compound the above factors.

Mark from VripTech is a big fan of using ice to take up surface area and reduce oxidation while providing cooling.

I’m honestly not sure about more effective medicating from mini rigs, mines been in the last pelican case for a while as it needs new quartz, but I was talking to a buddy yesterday about this - as far as flavor, it’s crazy how much the rig can make a difference. My 5” tall 10mm mini tube with simple 2 hole perc translates the best flavor to me bar none. The difference to me is quite substantial compared to my other tubes.
 
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So you’re dealing with multiple facets here:

You’ve got water soluble terpenes which can be uptaken by the water, condensation which will cause oil to fall out of phase and stick to the glass, and then dealing with dead space = oxygen which could result in oxidized terpenes. Also since bigger bongs generally contain more water and more surface area for condensation to occur, which could compound the above factors.

Mark from VripTech is a big fan of using ice to take up surface area and reduce oxidation while providing cooling.

I’m honestly not sure about more effective medicating from mini rigs, mines been in the last pelican case for a while as it needs new quartz, but I was talking to a buddy yesterday about this - as far as flavor, it’s crazy how much the rig can make a difference. My 5” tall 10mm mini tube with simple 2 hole perc translates the best flavor to me bar none. The difference to me is quite substantial compared to my other tubes.

Personally I do not see terpenes as being that important to the entourage effect

Thank you for clearing this up!! I also am very glad you got me thinking about using ice, I'll probably use the Ursa as my daily driver but now I gotta look around for a mini ice catcher to try that out!
 

Silver420Surfer

Well-Known Member
Maybe some other members here can join in, but I swear there was a post on here from a few years back that said that vaping with ice caused him to get some kinda lung infection, it cleared up eventually but his Dr told him to use room temp water in his glass piece.
 
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Kins

Well-Known Member
I'm finding myself stuck between two schools of thought regarding filtration and terpenes:

1. Too much percolation/water filtration will cause terpenes to be absorbed by the water, or being cooled so much that they stick to the glass

2. Too much air in a piece will cause loss of terpenes simply by diffusing too much, aka if your bong is too big then bye bye terpenes

I have noticed that MJArsenal heavily markets around the idea that too much air in a piece means too much loss of terpenes. Have you ever noticed your mini rigs being more effective on a medical level? Do you think they actually preserve terpenes in a significant way?

Followup question: any other mini pieces I should be considering?

Thanks!


I use a 14" roor to vape through, no difference between a smaller bong besides it being smoother and I still get the same flavor with the same strain.
 
Kins,

Kins

Well-Known Member
Maybe some other members here can join in, but I swear there was a post on here from a few years back that said that vaping with ice caused him to get some kinda lung infection, it cleared up eventually but his Dr told him to use room temp water in his glass piece.


You don't want to use ice because it's cooler. With vapor you want more humidity so warm or hot water works best. The vapor isn't hot, it's dry...It's mostly a weed quality thing, meaning when at the dispensary smell the weed. If it's suppose to smell of a certain flavor and it doesn't have a hint of it in the store than don't purchase it. You should be able to smell the terps just by opening the container.
 
Kins,

Cereal4dinner

Well-Known Member
I'm finding myself stuck between two schools of thought regarding filtration and terpenes:

1. Too much percolation/water filtration will cause terpenes to be absorbed by the water, or being cooled so much that they stick to the glass

2. Too much air in a piece will cause loss of terpenes simply by diffusing too much, aka if your bong is too big then bye bye terpenes

I have noticed that MJArsenal heavily markets around the idea that too much air in a piece means too much loss of terpenes. Have you ever noticed your mini rigs being more effective on a medical level? Do you think they actually preserve terpenes in a significant way?

Followup question: any other mini pieces I should be considering?

Thanks!
I also jumped on the mj arsenal craze for flavour. For sure the flavour is better with smaller rigs, but i found after a while my throat and lungs were getting way more irritated with smaller pieces. I went back to medium rigs and the flavour is not noticeably different, but is a much smoother hit. Im sticking with bigger rigs because i was sick of coughing from a dry throat.

I still use mini rigs, but mostly for travel. Dabs are just more enjoyable with medium rigs, and much easier to handle. My wife hates handling the small rigs, there much harder for her to dab with.
 

rodders83

Well-Known Member
The time i used ice was the only time i seen actual lumps of honey stick to the actual ice notch groove. And it was a real bitch to get off it was a solid bead and i never got to dab it i had to iso rinse it .


:(
 
rodders83,

Kins

Well-Known Member
I also jumped on the mj arsenal craze for flavour. For sure the flavour is better with smaller rigs, but i found after a while my throat and lungs were getting way more irritated with smaller pieces. I went back to medium rigs and the flavour is not noticeably different, but is a much smoother hit. Im sticking with bigger rigs because i was sick of coughing from a dry throat.

I still use mini rigs, but mostly for travel. Dabs are just more enjoyable with medium rigs, and much easier to handle. My wife hates handling the small rigs, there much harder for her to dab with.

Small rigs suck because the vapor has little time to cool off before hitting the lungs. I've used a 21 inch bong with three percs and still had awesome flavor ontop of smooth....
 
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Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
Everyone is different, and everyone needs to find their own unique sweet-spot.

The smaller the glass, the less complex percolation, the less water...the more flavor (terpenes) that are preserved. Also, the harsher the vapor.

The larger the glass, The more complex the percolation, the more water...the more flavor (terpenes) that are lost. Also, the smoother the vapor.

That's at least four factors that you can play with in the millions of different combinations out there to find your unique individual sweet spot.

Also, my "sweet spot" is different, depending on the day and my mood. That's why it's good to have a number of different types of vapes, and a number of different types of glass pieces. Sometimes I'm in the mood for one kind of sweet spot that is unique to me...and at other times I may be in the mood for a different type of sweet spot that is unique to me.

The possibilities are endless, and always unique to the person.
Collect, experiment, have fun, and find your unique sweet spots, no matter where they may lie. The more options you have available, the better.

Have fun, experiment, be merry, and be happily stoned my friends! :razz:
 
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Kins

Well-Known Member
Why would you think that percolation causes a loss in flavor. That doesn't make much sense to me. Could you explain that with some facts?.
 
Kins,

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
Why would you think that percolation causes a loss in flavor. That doesn't make much sense to me. Could you explain that with some facts?.

I don't know the science. Just going off experience. I know that's merely anecdotal, and I know that anecdotal evidence shouldn't convince anyone. Fair point.

It makes sense to me because the more percolation, the more bubbles...and the smaller the bubbles. More bubbles and smaller bubbles means more water/surface-area-contact with the water. I've always found that to correlate with loss of flavor.

I suspect (and hope) that others here, more educated in the actual science of the subject than me, can provide the convincing facts. Otherwise, I don't expect you to just accept my position.
 
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kimura

Well-Known Member
Why would you think that percolation causes a loss in flavor. That doesn't make much sense to me. Could you explain that with some facts?.

more percolation means more contact between water and aerosolized cannabinoids. I observed years ago that when I vaped through water, the water would develop the noticeable aroma of whatever I was vaping. That alone was evidence enough for me to believe that some terpenes or other cannabinoids were getting trapped in the water.

There is going to be some loss, even if you just use a jhook. Life is full of trade offs. Figure out what you like, subjectively, and enjoy. My experience is that it’s best to go as small and simple as you comfortably can, but try not to obsess too much over it
 
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Kins

Well-Known Member
more percolation means more contact between water and aerosolized cannabinoids. I observed years ago that when I vaped through water, the water would develop the noticeable aroma of whatever I was vaping. That alone was evidence enough for me to believe that some terpenes or other cannabinoids were getting trapped in the water.

There is going to be some loss, even if you just use a jhook. Life is full of trade offs. Figure out what you like, subjectively, and enjoy. My experience is that it’s best to go as small and simple as you comfortably can, but try not to obsess too much over it

I just think if there was some specific science on it we'd all be better off. While your explanation makes sense, I feel like there's got to be more to this.
 
Kins,

scy123

Well-Known Member
I know from other hobbies, if you cool vapor just enough the vaporized particles will condense back to solution and won't be in the vapor any longer.
 

Cheebsy

Well-Known Member
@Kins there is, it's just waiting for you to find it!

I long since stopped using big pieces, and in fact I don't use water any more unless I'm dabbing. My complex pieces (eg hydrotube with a honeycomb perc) I only ever use dry these days since reading a post somewhere by @lazylathe stating effects and flavour had improved for him since going dry. I tried it and never looked back. If you can train your throat to get used to the irritation of dry hits it's well worth it imo.
 

invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
I just think if there was some specific science on it we'd all be better off. While your explanation makes sense, I feel like there's got to be more to this.

Water and vapor hate each-other, it's the most basic of science: phase change.

Technically by the time you even see the vapor "clouds" it has already begun condensing.

A bigger bong just has more surface area to promote more condensation. A multi perc bong is essentially a fractionation column.

Most of what people talk about in regards to "cooling vapor" is a facade, look at any vaporizer cooling unit and you'll find it caked full of condensed oils aka reclaim. The vapor is only being cooled in the sense that you are simply inhaling less of it. Actual cooling of vapor resulting in temperature change causes oils suspended in the aerosol to fall out of phase and condense into sticky liquid. The second you add water to a vaporizer you're distilling.

That said, water in the bong is nostalgic and I still use it, but it's not technically proper.
 

Kins

Well-Known Member
Hmmmm. Thanks a lot for the details. I don't think I ever want to vape or smoke from a dry bong!. If I'm losing a bit of flavor because of a big bong than I don't really care. I'd rather get some use out my bongs. While it may technically be true, or on "paper" I don't any difference between vaping dry and using a water piece as far flavor is concerned. With being comfortable on my lungs I do notice a dry hit sucks every single time. I love flavor but I would never trade comfort for flavor, ever.....Everyone has always loved bongs since their invention. I've also had better flavor in a larger bong with more percs than a small one with a single perc. The difference with the smaller ones is they are less comfortable and more irritating to the lungs.

Ultimately, I think people just put way too much water in their bongs/water pipes and bubblers.
 
Kins,

3dfx-glide

Boats & Harbors
I used to use my VapCap through water, but now just do it straight from the VapCap with no piece. It doesn't irritate my lungs any personally but I know with some other vapes if I crunk up the temp to 410+ it would start to be uncomfortable.

Isn't a fair alternative to just suck air in with your vape? I mean, just open your lips slightly so when you suck in air from your vape you're also letting some room-temperature air slipstream in to your mouth, cooling the cannabis vapor as it makes its way to your lungs.

You could also just inhale slower, so the vapor has more time to 'hang' and cool in your vaporizer, while still having been vaporized at a higher temp initially

Or do multiple little sips, and instead of direct-to-lungs, let them stay in your mouth for a few seconds to cool down before you inhale deeper?

These ways you get cooler vapor and not having to worry about anything being lost/trapped in a water piece
 
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justcametomind

IT'S TIME!
We equip with glass to achieve full extraction and save our throat at the same time, but then lose terpenes and cannabinoids along the way.
I may be complete wrong but:
if glass/glass+water means losing terpenes, why not ditching glass alltogether and just lowering temperatures a bit?
 

kimura

Well-Known Member
We equip with glass to achieve full extraction and save our throat at the same time, but then lose terpenes and cannabinoids along the way.
I may be complete wrong but:
if glass/glass+water means losing terpenes, why not ditching glass alltogether and just lowering temperatures a bit?

I don't think you're wrong. but lowering temps on a convection device does mean you'll need to slow your draw to keep getting the same clouds. most of us like to take a more natural open draw and also want clouds, which means you might need enough heat to scorch on a very slow draw (unless temp is being actively controlled during a draw), or, (even better) a heater with a lot of thermal mass that can get away with running at a lower temp (lookin at you VapBong :brow:).

there's no such thing as a free lunch. if you want easy breezy clouds galore, you're probably going to need to cool it a bit. cooling vapor necessarily causes it to condense and stick to whatever. if you want to minimize terpene or other cannabinoid loss, you need to minimize the vapor path

Have you ever noticed your mini rigs being more effective on a medical level? Do you think they actually preserve terpenes in a significant way?

actually yes. it's totally subjective, but that experience is what led me away from larger glass. I was playing with my EVO back in the day and realized that I got a more pronounced, "edgy" effect from just using the straight mouthpiece as opposed to a hydratube. not a very popular opinion, I know. it's one of the reasons I love the miniVAP so much. I can get huge comfortable (tasty!) clouds using just a jhook. I think Jorge managed to strike a rare balance between draw resistance, thermal mass, heater temp etc. I know that's a little off topic but I think it helps illustrate my point

EDIT: I feel like I have to add... there's always going to be some loss, so try not to obsess. if you like bigger glass, cool! is it medicating you? is it comfortable? does it taste good? great! do what you like, and be open to trying different things. variety is the spice
 
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invertedisdead

Defenders Of Glass
We equip with glass to achieve full extraction and save our throat at the same time, but then lose terpenes and cannabinoids along the way.
I may be complete wrong but:
if glass/glass+water means losing terpenes, why not ditching glass alltogether and just lowering temperatures a bit?

Vaping at lower temperatures might cause more loss than using glass and water.




The issue is the ideal thermodynamic designs aren't really the most comfortable for the end user. Grasshopper is a great example, solid thermodynamics, super short pathway, BUT so many people feel its too hot to use as designed.
 

Haze Mister

Well-Known Member
It seems that the flavour and aroma are negatively impacted by contact with water and air. Alcohol extracts or winterized extarcts always lack flavour too, in my experience.


The vapor is only being cooled in the sense that you are simply inhaling less of it.

I think what happens is that the air carrying the vapor is moisturized by the bubbler, which makes it less irritating for the throat/ lungs. I think most people will agree water cooling works somehow. Even with the condensation losses you just cannot take the same size hits from a dry setup unless you go big (eg volcano bags, or huge bongs).
 
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