Poor quality sleep after an evening session

[Slothington]

I've noticed that if I vape in the evening, I'll sleep solidly for 8+ hours, but when I wake I'll feel like I've only slept maybe 2 hours at best. The following day I'll be dead tired, but not sleepy.

I've read similar experiences on other fora, and I'm betting some FC'ers have this problem as well. I'm wondering if anyone has found any clues why this unrefreshing sleep happens to some users, or what causes it and what helps it.

For my part, I get it after vaping just a single stem (UD) or a single small bowl (back when I smoked). I haven't tried smaller quantities yet.

Some suggestions I've read elsewhere are trying 5htp/tryptophan, l-tyrosine, sativa-dominants instead of indicas, no vaping/smoking at least an hour before sleep, reduce consumption, drink plenty of water to prevent dehydration, plan on getting a few extra hours of sleep, or simply don't use in the evenings.

For me, it doesn't seem related to dehydration. And I usually stop vaping an hour or two before sleep. I usually get some decent flowers, but no idea what strains (non-MMJ state). Vaping during the day isn't an option for me. And the only solution I know and practice is not vaping daily. That's ok by me, but I'd love to find a way to not be exhausted the day after.

So, I'm curious to hear others' experiences on this, thoughts, ideas, any in-depth technical info about cannabinoids and their role in modulating neurotransmitter release and how that affects sleep quality, anything related.

 

[(We'll call him B)]

Sometimes, you need to help your body out.... I may sound like a broken record here but, Yoga and Qigong are the answer. You can vape the finest herb in the world, but if your body isn't happy it will not let you be high or get rest. By stretching you release various psychoactive chemicals stored in glands which reside in your deep muscle tissue. Trust me when I say the pain is the gain, the longer you stretch the better you sleep. Also, Myco Terpentine, "which is found in mango's" Helps THC and other chemicals to pass through the blood brain barrier. So Eat a mango, drink some chamomile tea, and stretch out for some good hearty sleep.

 

[lwien]

THC inhibits REM sleep............not totally, but it does inhibit it.

 

[t-dub]

Drink some OJ. It will hydrate you and the sugar will feed your liver and brain.

 

[C No Ego]

I had this strain a few years ago that totally blew out my feel good stuff and made me feel drained afterwards. some strains are worse than others but an indica at high heat will work best at night before bed.

I've been taking a few tablespoons of raw honey before bed for years and it helps for a good nights sleep as it gives the body something to digest slowly overnight and not wake you up from nothing to digest. I've read that almond butter helps with this too.

 

[Slothington]

(We'll call him B): Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know much about Yoga or Qigong, but I'll look into it.

lwien: Thanks for bringing up the topic of REM sleep. While I was typing out a reply to you, it occurred to me that I could try something that would dis-inhibit REM sleep (or perhaps inhibit NREM/SWS sleep), maybe a pro-acetylcholinergic, just to see if it's the lack of REM sleep that's causing the problem. I wonder if a simple precursor like CDP-choline would have any positive effect.

t-dub: Thanks for the suggestion. I'm revisiting the dehydration angle, but you have me thinking beyond just water. I'll give it a shot.

C No Ego: Thanks, I'll give honey a go. I wish I had some different strains (mainly indica or mainly sativa, or maybe there's more to consider) to try to find out how much of an effect that's having on my sleep. But I have no idea what I'm getting locally. That's on my "ask around" list.

 

[lwien]

(We'll call him B): Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know much about Yoga or Qigong, but I'll look into it.

lwien: Thanks for bringing up the topic of REM sleep. While I was typing out a reply to you, it occurred to me that I could try something that would dis-inhibit REM sleep (or perhaps inhibit NREM/SWS sleep), maybe a pro-acetylcholinergic, just to see if it's the lack of REM sleep that's causing the problem. I wonder if a simple precursor like CDP-choline would have any positive effect.

t-dub: Thanks for the suggestion. I'm revisiting the dehydration angle, but you have me thinking beyond just water. I'll give it a shot.

C No Ego: Thanks, I'll give honey a go. I wish I had some different strains (mainly indica or mainly sativa, or maybe there's more to consider) to try to find out how much of an effect that's having on my sleep. But I have no idea what I'm getting locally. That's on my "ask around" list.

Please keep us posted as to what works for you, k?

 

[hoptimum]

I agree with lwien. Since cannabis inhibits REM sleep your dreaming state seems to occur later in your sleep cycle, which is why I think I dream more vividly closer to the end of the cycle. However, your body apparently doesn't recover all of its sleep so you're sort of in a sleep deficit situation the following day. I find that if I take a break for a few days I sleep better and have more energy the next day.

 

[lwien]

I find that if I take a break for a few days I sleep better and have more energy the next day.

Yup, on the days that I do take a break, I go into REM overdrive and dream like crazy. REM catch-up mode.

 

[C No Ego]

(We'll call him B): Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know much about Yoga or Qigong, but I'll look into it.

lwien: Thanks for bringing up the topic of REM sleep. While I was typing out a reply to you, it occurred to me that I could try something that would dis-inhibit REM sleep (or perhaps inhibit NREM/SWS sleep), maybe a pro-acetylcholinergic, just to see if it's the lack of REM sleep that's causing the problem. I wonder if a simple precursor like CDP-choline would have any positive effect.

t-dub: Thanks for the suggestion. I'm revisiting the dehydration angle, but you have me thinking beyond just water. I'll give it a shot.

C No Ego: Thanks, I'll give honey a go. I wish I had some different strains (mainly indica or mainly sativa, or maybe there's more to consider) to try to find out how much of an effect that's having on my sleep. But I have no idea what I'm getting locally. That's on my "ask around" list.

the test to find out indica or sativa is when you vape/smoke it does it make you want to get up and boogy (sativa) or get down low ( indica) and some strains are equal 50/50 split in the genetics. the heat setting in your vape determines effects as well regardless of indica,sativa. the higher the vape heat setting the more sedative the affects.

 

[escierdanyc]

I've read similar experiences on other fora

You know you're baked when you get lost in time looking up "forums vs fora". That is exactly what I did. I just learned a whole lot more about Latin than I knew 30 minutes ago.

 

[(We'll call him B)]

I vaped about 10 grams of velvet overlord, did an hour of qi-gong, and tried the honey thing.... Slept like a rock.

 

[MPZ]

I definitely know what you mean, OP...

Usually when I wake up I feel rested but completely devoid of energy. Probably because (due to anxiety issues, according to my sleep doctor- I agree) I can't usually sleep for 8 hours without THC (or something else helping with my anxiety). So it's a strange feeling- I wake up and I actually feel awake, instead of in a fog, but I don't have much energy (though I still feel significantly better than waking up normally usually).

I would probably rcommend getting more exercise during the day, as this will both help you sleep better and help your metabolism with blowing through THC faster so you catch more REM.

Best of luck.

 

[Slothington]

lwien: Will do. And I have the same experience regarding the REM-rebound. The dreams are usually much more intense after several days of daily use. Since I'm currently only vaping once or twice a week, the rebound is not nearly as aggressive.

hoptimum: Spot on. Ultimately, I may just have to stick to vaping infrequently and plan on getting extra sleep the following night. But if the problem is with REM inhibition, I may be able to do something about that. Still researching, though.

C No Ego: That's a good idea. I'll do a trial of lower-heat vaping vs higher-heat, see what it does for sleep quality. Thanks.

escierdanyc: Too funny. The last time I did that I spent the better part of an hour googling why the past tense of "expend" isn't "expent."

MPZ: Thanks. Yeah, I should definitely get more exercise during the week. That should be near the top of my list of things to try. Sorry to hear about the insomnia and anxiety, but it's good that you have something that's at least giving you some relief. If I find anything that helps me get better quality sleep after vaping, I'll definitely post it here. Maybe it'll help you get a little extra out of your sleep as well.

 

[MPZ]

lwien: Will do. And I have the same experience regarding the REM-rebound. The dreams are usually much more intense after several days of daily use. Since I'm currently only vaping once or twice a week, the rebound is not nearly as aggressive.

hoptimum: Spot on. Ultimately, I may just have to stick to vaping infrequently and plan on getting extra sleep the following night. But if the problem is with REM inhibition, I may be able to do something about that. Still researching, though.

C No Ego: That's a good idea. I'll do a trial of lower-heat vaping vs higher-heat, see what it does for sleep quality. Thanks.

escierdanyc: Too funny. The last time I did that I spent the better part of an hour googling why the past tense of "expend" isn't "expent."

MPZ: Thanks. Yeah, I should definitely get more exercise during the week. That should be near the top of my list of things to try. Sorry to hear about the insomnia and anxiety, but it's good that you have something that's at least giving you some relief. If I find anything that helps me get better quality sleep after vaping, I'll definitely post it here. Maybe it'll help you get a little extra out of your sleep as well.

I really need to take my own advice and get more exercise- it seemed to do the trick when I was younger. But anyways, experimenting with temperature is always a good idea- plenty of active ingredients in ganja, and vapor temp seems to effect how much you get of what. I almost always like the results better when I go low-temperature.

It's a bummer that you don't live in a medical state- I've found (I live in Washington- the evergreen state itself ) that each strain is different, and finding the strains that suit me has been a big help in getting the results I want.

Oh yea- it's been my experience that whoever mentioned stretching is also correct, as I've found that an hour of yoga can be really relaxing.

Best of luck with improving your sleep!

 

[BranFlakes188]

MPZ's on the money. I've always been a bit of an insomniac (even without MJ) and I can tell you that exercise is important for everyone, it was something that I stupidly neglected for quite a while. I also second the notion of trying different temperatures. Low temps will often make me anxious, hindering sleep, whereas the high temps tend to release the most sedative chemicals. Furthermore, I would go for indica strains over sativa as they have a higher CBD:THC ratio and are better for body effects/sleep. Strong sativas make me crawl up the wall.

Side note: the worst sleep is when you quit. I'm currently on a hiatus because I was smoking too much, it was making me lazy/slow and affecting my life negatively. I'm on day 3 of soberness and I've probably slept a combined 5 hours in the last two nights. For me it wasn't good to be dependent on it for sleep and I'm certainly not going back to being an every day/night toker (but I'm soooo looking forward to my first rip). Let the dreams commence!

 

[Belgianvapor]

this is funny, just today I decided to quit vaping for a couple of days because to me it feels like
vaping makes me get up tired and without the needed drive to start my working night. I work nights
and it is a pretty labor intense job but it requires of me that I sleep 3-4 hours in the evening and again
3-4 hours in the afternoon.
I know this isn't an ideal sleeping regime but I'm doing this for almost 20 years now so I'm used to it.
Before I vaped I always had a great night/day of sleep but since I started vaping, or at least since I started
vaping seriously (daily) I feel like I don't have energy, drive, deep sleep etc.
I only started vaping about 2 years ago, before that I never used mj, never ever smoked anything, didn't drink etc.
I'm in between a recreational vaper and a medical user (or at least I try to think that about myself) and
I use vaping to get my mind off from work and relieve me from stress.
To be honest, it doesn't relieve me from stress, it just makes me forget I'm stressed.
Great tips everyone, I'll try some of them when I start vaping again.

 

[Slothington]

MPZ: Another vote for low-temp and stretching, I'll definitely give them a shot. Thanks again and good luck to you as well!

BranFlakes188: 5 hours of sleep over the last two nights? Brutal. Hope it all evens out for you soon and you get in to a good sleep schedule. I remember when I took an extended break after several months of smoking every night, I had nothing but nightmares and terminal insomnia. It was like REM was getting revenge for having been away for so long. It all gradually got better and everything returned to normal, but it did take a while. Good luck and thanks for the suggestions!

Belgianvapor: Yeah, I certainly can't vape daily either. I got into that habit back when I smoked, and I just fell apart after a while. Once or twice per week seems to work much better for me these days, much more enjoyable as well, even if I do drag a bit the next day. Anyway, enjoy the break and enjoy the return!

 

[(We'll call him B)]

The question is, "Can you touch your toes with straight legs?" And for how long? I like the proactive sleep efforts going on in this thread, sleep is only second to food, water, and air. Also do all of these efforts help promote dreaming?

 

[C No Ego]

The question is, "Can you touch your toes with straight legs?" And for how long? I like the proactive sleep efforts going on in this thread, sleep is only second to food, water, and air. Also do all of these efforts help promote dreaming?

dreaming would be a result of a good nights sleep imo, and having clear intentions before falling asleep...

 

[lwien]

dreaming would be a result of a good nights sleep imo, and having clear intentions before falling asleep...

Ummmm.........Well, the only time that you actually know if you've been dreaming is if you wake up in the middle of one.

Secondly, one can think that they've had a good nights sleep simply because they slept through the night, but you can sleep through the night without getting the amount of REM that you should, as what typically happens when you smoke or vape right before bedtime.

 

[Enchantre]

I use a Fitbit Flex to track my sleep... so, I actually have graphs showing me that if I medicate too heavily, I'm awake on and off all night... but if I vape too little, or not at all, it's worse.

I was just over on the Lavender thread, and maybe I'll put a little lavender in with my evening mj, and see how that does me.

 

[wallpaper]

I will be trying 5-htp soon. I hear great things about it. If I remember, I will follow up in this thread.

 

[11eleven11]

I use a Fitbit Flex to track my sleep... so, I actually have graphs showing me that if I medicate too heavily, I'm awake on and off all night... but if I vape too little, or not at all, it's worse.

I was just over on the Lavender thread, and maybe I'll put a little lavender in with my evening mj, and see how that does me.

I have a fitbit as well but I find it kind of useless for tracking sleep. It only senses movement and makes judgments off of that. So I can be just laying there staring at the ceiling and it thinks I'm sleeping. Or I can be tossing and turning while in a light sleep and it'll think I'm awake. etc. I still love my fitbit though. It's a fantastic tool for making sure I am keeping active during the day. And it's very convenient for tracking runs.

As far as this thread goes, with me, I also have a hard time sleeping when I'm very high. But I've also noticed that if I believe that I won't sleep because I'm so high then it's definitely a no-go. The best thing to do is just view it as relaxation/meditation time, and when your mind isn't obsessively thinking about this or that, sleep may come. It's the only way. I do think it's a good idea to not start a vaporization session at least an hour and a half before bed if you have problems with this. I usually have a 2 hour rule.

And then there are a ton of other factors. Like your sleep hygiene, your brain's current circadian rhythm, etc.

 

[Slothington]

I wanted to say thanks to everyone so far for the ideas and suggestions. I'm currently vaping just once per week, so it'll take me a while to try out a lot of these ideas. If any of you who have a similar problem with unrefreshing sleep want to run some trials, you're more than welcome to post your findings here in this thread.



(We'll call him B): "Can you touch your toes with straight legs?" Not quite. I can get about 1.5 in away and hold it for a few minutes. I haven't tried longer. About whether or not any of these efforts promote dreaming, I think some of them would and others would not. Pharmaceuticals, amino acids, vitamins/minerals, any of those should be fairly easy to find out whether they tend to suppress or disinhibit REM (where we tend to do the most dreaming). But exercise, stretching, meditation, not sure about those. I haven't looked into any studies about their effect on REM or dreaming. Interesting side note, humans can also dream during non-REM sleep, so looking at REM is only part of the equation when it comes to dreaming.


C No Ego: With a stable and healthy sleep pattern, I agree that dreaming would be part of a good night's sleep. But especially with REM-rebound or when taking medications that disinhibit REM, people often complain about not getting any rest because they spent the whole night dreaming or having nightmares. I like the "clear intentions" part. It reminded me of when I was more actively trying to induce lucid dreaming. The best results I had were when I used a method known as wake-induced lucid dreaming, basically creating the dream I would enter as I was falling asleep.


lwien: Yep. For a long time, I didn't know my sleep quality was trashed. I thought that sleeping soundly for 8 hours meant that I got a good night's sleep. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out any reason why I was always tired, not refreshed in the morning, injuries taking a long time to heal, always irritable, uninterested in most everything. It all sounded like symptoms of sleep deprivation, but I thought I was sleeping so well!


Enchantre: I hadn't thought of lavender. I'm interested to hear what it does for your sleep.. or maybe I should just head over to the lavender thread?


wallpaper: I'm very interested to hear how you do with 5htp. I've tried it for only two days in the past and had anxiety and nightmares. But, my sleep was completely wrecked at that point, so it would be unfair to blame the 5htp. If you get a chance, let us know how it works out for you.


11eleven11: Good advice on insomnia in general. I find that if I start thinking I won't get to sleep or get back to sleep, then I definitely won't. And about the 2 hour rule, next time I get a few days off, I'll be trying that. It may end up being more than 2 hours for me, but it would be very helpful to know just how long it takes for mj to no longer affect the quality of my sleep.