Official CBD Discussion Thread

[ginolicious]

What an awful name for a strain! Candida? Really? A Yeast?



How long has it been since you have had THC? I'm in the process of transitioning from THC to 1:1 as well as cbd isolate due to poor sleep that's from too much THC. I just want my dreams back! And even just cutting back has caused me sleep issues. I yearn for natural sober sleep.

Well just last month I was on a 3.84%THC and 8.5% CBD. last month or so though has been strictly CBD.

 

[biohacker]

Well just last month I was on a 3.84%THC and 8.5% CBD. last month or so though has been strictly CBD.

How was your sleep with the low THC%? I just wonder if you're still experiencing neurotransmitter rebalancing. The biggest reason for me to take drastic action right now is due to dopamine d2 receptor down regulation as i'm a heavy long term (10+ years) user, and that scares the shit outta me. I'm thinking that the CBD can't "hurt".

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Did you quote me and then delete the quote, @biohacker? I have an alert saying you did, but the linked post only has @ginolicious quoted.

 

[biohacker]

Did you quote me and then delete the quote, @biohacker? I have an alert saying you did, but the linked post only has @ginolicious quoted.

Yes, accidental. Apologies, I don't mean to be an alert tease!

Crazy quick, I edited and deleted it within 2 seconds of posting!

As you were!

EDIT:

Just curious, haven't read the thread through yet, but someone recently mentioned to me that cbd oil can increase liver enzyme values, so quick google, and I guess there might be something to it?

https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776

 

[chris 71]

[QUOTE="biohacker, post:

Just curious, haven't read the thread through yet, but someone recently mentioned to me that cbd oil can increase liver enzyme values, so quick google, and I guess there might be something to it?

https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776[/QUOTE]



I have been using cbd strains and 1 to 1 strains and varing ratios of cbd to thc strains starting in around the summer of 2014 till now , from mid 2015 till now almost every day multiple times a day . Vaping though .
the amounts in the study linked sounds like huge dose to me

Just so happens i also have been getting regular alt and ast liver enzyme test about every 6 weeks for the last 3 and a half years .

The reason is because im taking a drug for graves disease and it knowen to be hard on your liver so i get my alt and ast checked along with the thyriod monitoring tests.

For what its worth My alt and ast have been well within normal range the whole time never once out of range

Like i said this is with vaping though and i dont think anywere near those high doses . But vaping cbd is known to be roughly 4 times as efficient as oral cbd

Im still sick all the time though so IDK

 

[boocoodinkydow]

Yes, accidental. Apologies, I don't mean to be an alert tease!

Crazy quick, I edited and deleted it within 2 seconds of posting!

As you were!

EDIT:

Just curious, haven't read the thread through yet, but someone recently mentioned to me that cbd oil can increase liver enzyme values, so quick google, and I guess there might be something to it?

https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776

I’m confused over the dosage ratio they’re noting. Is the mg/kg referencing mg of CBD per kg of body weight or what. If that’s the case, this would represent a dosage that would be absurd for human consumption. Am I looking at this wrong?

 

[C No Ego]

I’m confused over the dosage ratio they’re noting. Is the mg/kg referencing mg of CBD per kg of body weight or what. If that’s the case, this would represent a dosage that would be absurd for human consumption. Am I looking at this wrong?

it was an Epidiolex study... conclusion... fake flavoring added to Epidiolex is causing the issues not CBD

 

[biohacker]

Apparently there are warnings on pharmaceutical grade CBD for epilepsy that state liver damage is common among patients being administered the treatment?

I saw this on a different unrelated forum, just curious if anybody knows more? Small doses may be fine, but longer term can affect the liver negatively, similar to NSAID's?

I've pretty much now ceased all my high thc, and today am starting exclusively 3.5:1 as well as cbd isolate powder and see how it goes over the next week.

 

[chris 71]

I wouldnt worry to much biohacker , just get your family doc to check your ALT and AST . As i mentioned my dose maybe not as large as the mice study u liked . but i definitely would qualify as long term seriously almost every singal day multiple sessions for going on almost 4 years .

All the while taking a drug that is really known to be hard on the liver and my ALT and AST have been tottaly fine every blood test and were talking like 30 blood test over the time period that i have been using cbd

 

[biohacker]

I'm just starting to think that an "isolate" is not the way to go. I only eat whole foods and thinking I want the entire entourage, even if it's low THC.

With that said, i've taken two dabs of the isolate this morning, and definitely notice its effects and i'm digging it!

 

[chris 71]

Not trying to tell you what to do but why not just stick to cbd flower for a while just to see . Maybe introduce the isolate later after you really get to know the cbd and flower i have a few straight cbd flower and to be honest i really like the strains more like one to one but i do use cbd every day

 

[biohacker]

Not trying to tell you what to do but why not just stick to cbd flower for a while just to see .

I'm going to use the CBD isolate for mornings and early afternoons, and then switch to the 3.5:1 FSE (I have several strains)... I need to taper the THC out of my life for a while and allow my brain to heal from all the past abuse. I think i'd like 1:1 better too.

 

[MinnBobber]

CBD experience today after wisdom tooth extraction:
Local anesthetic was wearing off so took the recommended 400 mg of Ibuprofen with some scrambled eggs .
20 minutes later decided to rub my CBD pain cream on that lower jaw area and neck vein. Within 10 minutes, pain was dropping
Pain is now 1/4 what it was.

With the timing, not sure which played a bigger role but pain is much less.
I rarely take Ibuprofen so how long does it typically take to act with a full stomach? I am guessing longer than 30 minutes/ so the CBD likely was the major player in helping this pain

I do find CBD to be an awesome pain med for numerous other pain issues

 

[CuckFumbustion]

Getting access to locally grown 'farm to table' hemp buds. Complete with compound profiles. so I can make an actual distinction between the strains and zero in on what might be more effective.
NYS was pro hemp before the Farm act of 2018. Cannabis is still illegal.
We have two CBD stores and a few local hemp growers that sell locally processed oils and salves,etc.
There is going to be more research that might shed some light as to how effective these products are.
U.S. to spend $3 million to find out if CBD can relieve pain

I'm getting more use out of the topicals as well as the vaped buds. Was trying the oils before.

 

[C No Ego]

Getting access to locally grown 'farm to table' hemp buds. Complete with compound profiles. so I can make an actual distinction between the strains and zero in on what might be more effective.
NYS was pro hemp before the Farm act of 2018. Cannabis is still illegal.
We have two CBD stores and a few local hemp growers that sell locally processed oils and salves,etc.
There is going to be more research that might shed some light as to how effective these products are.
U.S. to spend $3 million to find out if CBD can relieve pain

I'm getting more use out of the topicals as well as the vaped buds. Was trying the oils before.

THC is much better for pain... THC actually directly metabolizes into a pain reducing effect... scientifically known = depolarization induced suppression of inhibition of neurotransmitter release , AKA retrograde signalling= post to pre synaptic firing... CBD weakly does this via back cross talk and TRPV1 channels

 

[invertedisdead]

THC is much better for pain... THC actually directly metabolizes into a pain reducing effect... scientifically known = depolarization induced suppression of inhibition of neurotransmitter release , AKA retrograde signalling= post to pre synaptic firing... CBD weakly does this via back cross talk and TRPV1 channels

What do you think about THCA's anti inflammatory properties in regards to managing pain compared to CBD? It seems like THCA is capable of many of the things CBD is purported to do, you just can't really vape it (and get the same properties) so it's not as popular here.

Read some interesting stuff from Sulak about achieving desired relief on 1/10-1/100th of a dose of THCA compared to a THC dose.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Regarding this study (https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776), there are a few important things to keep in mind:

A 150lb person is 68kg. The doses used for the single macro dose experiment were (mg/kg) 0, 246, 738, 2460, which turns out to be 0g, 16.728g, 50.184g, 167.28g (for a 150lb person / 68kg). The doses used for the multi-dose experiment were (mg/kg) 0, 61.5, 184.5, or 615, which turns out to be 0g, 4.182g, 12.546g, 41.820g (for a 150lb/68kg person).

"In the single dose experiment, the mice on the highest dosage, 2460 mg/kg CBD, became sluggish, lost their appetite, showed significant increases in liver-to-body weight ratios, and marginal body weight loss. The mice were also found to have higher levels of liver enzymes ALT and AST, which are markers for liver damage, and a higher total bilirubin count than normal, which implies the inability of the liver to excrete the pigment normally.

Mice at the slightly lower 738 mg/kg dose also exhibited lethargy, changes in body weight, increases in liver-to-body weight ratio, and smaller but still significant increases in the liver enzymes ALT and AST.

-Alexander Beadle
https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776
"

Yes, accidental. Apologies, I don't mean to be an alert tease!

Crazy quick, I edited and deleted it within 2 seconds of posting!

As you were!

Lol, No problem.

it was an Epidiolex study... conclusion... fake flavoring added to Epidiolex is causing the issues not CBD

How did you come to that conclusion?

From what I see, they weren't dosing the mice with Epidiolex, in this study. They just used it's dosage information as a guideline.

"But here, the dose equivalent to the maximum human dosage was actually the lowest of the CBD dosages in each experiment, at 246 mg/kg and 61.5 mg/kg respectively. The other dosages were chosen to reflect 3x and 10x the maximum recommended dose for Epidiolex in humans."

"
4. Materials and Methods
4.1. CBD Extract Characterization, Dosing Solution, and Dose Calculations
CBD extract was prepared following GMP procedures from the leaves and flowering tops by the extraction of CBD rich cannabis plant material (5.61% of CBD and 0.2% THC) using hexane as the extraction solvent. The extract was then evaporated to dryness followed by raising the temperature to 80 °C to effect complete decarboxylation of the extract. The final extract was analyzed using GC/MS for its cannabinoid content, solvent residue, heavy metals, bacterial and fungal counts and aflatoxin content following USP procedures. The results showed the following: cannabidiol content 57.9%; other cannabinoids: cannabichromene 2.03%, Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol 1.69%, cannabigerol 1.07%, Δ8-tetrahydrocannabinol <0.01%; tetrahydrocannabivarin <0.01%. Residual solvent <0.5%; loss on drying 0.32%; heavy metals: lead, mercury, cadmium, and arsenic were not detected; aflatoxins: AFB1, AFB2, AGF1, AFG2 were not detected.
Doses of the CBD extract were calculated based on the CBD content listed above to deliver the required dose of CBD. For simplicity, the ‘CBD-rich cannabis extract’ will be referred to as ‘CBD’ throughout this manuscript. The extract was diluted in sesame oil to prepare the gavage solution. Allometric scaling for CBD mouse equivalent doses (MED) was determined per the recommendation of Wojcikowski and Gobe which, in turn, is based upon the FDA Industry Guidance for Estimating the Maximum Safe Starting Dose in Initial Clinical Trials for Therapeutics in Adult Volunteers [40]. The scaling factor of 12.3, commonly used for mice weighing between 11–34 g, was used to calculate the MED for CBD. The MED was based on the maximum recommended human maintenance dose of CBD (Epidiolex®), which is 20 mg/kg. For the 1× dose, the quantity of CBD administered was 20 mg/kg × 0.025 kg (average mouse weight in our study) × 12.3 (scaling factor for mice) = 6.15 mg total CBD delivered in 300 µL of gavage solution or 246 mg/kg. Consequently, 3× dose = 18.45 mg total CBD in 300 µL gavage solution or 738 mg/kg), and 10× dose = 61.5 mg total CBD in 300 µL gavage solution or 2460 mg/kg). In the sub-acute study, the dose of 61.5 mg/kg (MED of 5 mg/kg CBD) was considered as 1× dose. Consequently, the doses of 184.5 mg/kg (MED of 15 mg/kg CBD) and 615 mg/kg (MED of 50 mg/kg CBD) were considered as 3× and 10×, respectively. Control mice received 300 µL of sesame oil.

https://www.mdpi.com/454532"

 

[C No Ego]

Regarding this study (https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776), there are a few important things to keep in mind:

A 150lb person is 68kg. The doses used for the single macro dose experiment were (mg/kg) 0, 246, 738, 2460, which turns out to be 0g, 16.728g, 50.184g, 167.28g (for a 150lb person / 68kg). The doses used for the multi-dose experiment were (mg/kg) 0, 61.5, 184.5, or 615, which turns out to be 0g, 4.182g, 12.546g, 41.820g (for a 150lb/68kg person).

"In the single dose experiment, the mice on the highest dosage, 2460 mg/kg CBD, became sluggish, lost their appetite, showed significant increases in liver-to-body weight ratios, and marginal body weight loss. The mice were also found to have higher levels of liver enzymes ALT and AST, which are markers for liver damage, and a higher total bilirubin count than normal, which implies the inability of the liver to excrete the pigment normally.

Mice at the slightly lower 738 mg/kg dose also exhibited lethargy, changes in body weight, increases in liver-to-body weight ratio, and smaller but still significant increases in the liver enzymes ALT and AST.

-Alexander Beadle
https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/articles/cbd-could-cause-liver-damage-at-high-doses-311776
"



Lol, No problem.


How did you come to that conclusion?

From what I see, they weren't dosing the mice with Epidiolex, in this study. They just used it's dosage information as a guideline.

"But here, the dose equivalent to the maximum human dosage was actually the lowest of the CBD dosages in each experiment, at 246 mg/kg and 61.5 mg/kg respectively. The other dosages were chosen to reflect 3x and 10x the maximum recommended dose for Epidiolex in humans."

"
4. Materials and Methods
4.1. CBD Extract Characterization, Dosing Solution, and Dose Calculations
CBD extract was prepared following GMP procedures from the leaves and flowering tops by the extraction of CBD rich cannabis plant material (5.61% of CBD and 0.2% THC) using hexane as the extraction solvent. The extract was then evaporated to dryness followed by raising the temperature to 80 °C to effect complete decarboxylation of the extract. The final extract was analyzed using GC/MS for its cannabinoid content, solvent residue, heavy metals, bacterial and fungal counts and aflatoxin content following USP procedures. The results showed the following: cannabidiol content 57.9%; other cannabinoids: cannabichromene 2.03%, Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol 1.69%, cannabigerol 1.07%, Δ8-tetrahydrocannabinol <0.01%; tetrahydrocannabivarin <0.01%. Residual solvent <0.5%; loss on drying 0.32%; heavy metals: lead, mercury, cadmium, and arsenic were not detected; aflatoxins: AFB1, AFB2, AGF1, AFG2 were not detected.
Doses of the CBD extract were calculated based on the CBD content listed above to deliver the required dose of CBD. For simplicity, the ‘CBD-rich cannabis extract’ will be referred to as ‘CBD’ throughout this manuscript. The extract was diluted in sesame oil to prepare the gavage solution. Allometric scaling for CBD mouse equivalent doses (MED) was determined per the recommendation of Wojcikowski and Gobe which, in turn, is based upon the FDA Industry Guidance for Estimating the Maximum Safe Starting Dose in Initial Clinical Trials for Therapeutics in Adult Volunteers [40]. The scaling factor of 12.3, commonly used for mice weighing between 11–34 g, was used to calculate the MED for CBD. The MED was based on the maximum recommended human maintenance dose of CBD (Epidiolex®), which is 20 mg/kg. For the 1× dose, the quantity of CBD administered was 20 mg/kg × 0.025 kg (average mouse weight in our study) × 12.3 (scaling factor for mice) = 6.15 mg total CBD delivered in 300 µL of gavage solution or 246 mg/kg. Consequently, 3× dose = 18.45 mg total CBD in 300 µL gavage solution or 738 mg/kg), and 10× dose = 61.5 mg total CBD in 300 µL gavage solution or 2460 mg/kg). In the sub-acute study, the dose of 61.5 mg/kg (MED of 5 mg/kg CBD) was considered as 1× dose. Consequently, the doses of 184.5 mg/kg (MED of 15 mg/kg CBD) and 615 mg/kg (MED of 50 mg/kg CBD) were considered as 3× and 10×, respectively. Control mice received 300 µL of sesame oil.

https://www.mdpi.com/454532"

if it an epidiolex research then epidiolex was used in the tests... they would not pay for anything else ?? why would they pay to test just one part of epidiolex separate of the entire drug ?

@invertedisdead THC acts on the pain via directly accessing central nervous system as an agonist neurotransmitter .. CBD and THCa will act through the anti inflammatory immune pathways as an antagonist modulate from a distance ligand

 

[EverythingsHazy]

if it an epidiolex research then epidiolex was used in the tests... they would not pay for anything else ?? why would they pay to test just one part of epidiolex separate of the entire drug ?

I feel like there is a bit of a misunderstanding, here. This wasn't an Epidiolex drug trial. It was a CBD study ("Hepatotoxicity of a Cannabidiol-Rich Cannabis Extract in the Mouse Model"). Epidiolex dosing info was only used to decide on comparable CBD doses for the experimental groups.

Did you read the study or what I quoted? In the "materials and methods" section of the paper, they explain what CBD extract they used, and how they made it.

"CBD extract was prepared following GMP procedures from the leaves and flowering tops by the extraction of CBD rich cannabis plant material (5.61% of CBD and 0.2% THC) using hexane as the extraction solvent."

"Doses of the CBD extract were calculated based on the CBD content listed above to deliver the required dose of CBD. For simplicity, the ‘CBD-rich cannabis extract’ will be referred to as ‘CBD’ throughout this manuscript."

"Conflicts of Interest
Quick serves as a scientific consultant for Allergen. The other authors have no conflicts of interest to disclose."

 

[C No Ego]

I feel like there is a bit of a misunderstanding, here. This wasn't an Epidiolex drug trial. It was a CBD study ("Hepatotoxicity of a Cannabidiol-Rich Cannabis Extract in the Mouse Model"). Epidiolex dosing info was only used to decide on comparable CBD doses for the experimental groups.

Did you read the study or what I quoted? In the "materials and methods" section of the paper, they explain what CBD extract they used, and how they made it.

"CBD extract was prepared following GMP procedures from the leaves and flowering tops by the extraction of CBD rich cannabis plant material (5.61% of CBD and 0.2% THC) using hexane as the extraction solvent."

"Doses of the CBD extract were calculated based on the CBD content listed above to deliver the required dose of CBD. For simplicity, the ‘CBD-rich cannabis extract’ will be referred to as ‘CBD’ throughout this manuscript."

"Conflicts of Interest
Quick serves as a scientific consultant for Allergen. The other authors have no conflicts of interest to disclose."

I;ve actually seen real world issue with the epidiolex and the fake flavoring effecting the liver and other allergic response from that... in that case it was the additives and not the CBD ... people ingesting just CBD like an RSO CBD oil ( not sesame oil diluted flavored formulas) have not reported liver issues whatsoever in no cases anywhere

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I;ve actually seen real world issue with the epidiolex and the fake flavoring effecting the liver and other allergic response from that... in that case it was the additives and not the CBD ... people ingesting just CBD like an RSO CBD oil ( not sesame oil diluted flavored formulas) have not reported liver issues whatsoever in no cases anywhere

Do you have any scientific proof that they suffered due to the additives, or is that just the conclusion you came to based on anecdotes?

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but I would like to prevent the spread of misinformation, because people on here are going to read these comments, and some of them will follow suit and start to blame everything but Cannabis for any potential negatives brought to light by scientific studies.

If we want the community to move forward in a productive direction, we need to be objective, and can't take an "all or nothing" stance.

 

[C No Ego]

Do you have any scientific proof that they suffered due to the additives, or is that just the conclusion you came to based on anecdotes?

I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing, but I would like to prevent the spread of misinformation, because people on here are going to read these comments, and some of them will follow suit and start to blame everything but Cannabis for any potential negatives brought to light by scientific studies.

If we want the community to move forward in a productive direction, we need to be objective, and can't take an "all or nothing" stance.

th eissues started when the person stopped using homegrown CBD oil and switched to Pharma epidiolex . I found that epidiolex was the source of the liver issue a whil;e back... I dug and there it was... cannot even find it now... icmag had a section on there forum about it too as well as most major cannabis sites...

 

[chris 71]

Ok so going by the the study you linked EverthingsHazy it says the maximum recomended human dose of EPIDIOLEX is 20mg per kg .

I weigh 166 pounds or 75 kilos

75 × 20mg = 1500 mgs a day

Check this out not epidiolex but still 390 dollars canadian for 4000 mgs of cbd oil before tax . so it would cost me about 450 bucks with tax for a little over 2 days worth of cbd oil at that dose . which is besides the point but still worth noting . Thats 6750 dollars for a months supply at the maximun dose .

https://www.tilray.ca/en/products/medical-cannabis/tilray-2100-oil.html

Not sure who could afford this but anyway ...

Oral cbd produces less bioavalibility then vaping like we mostly talk about here but just for fun lets try and figure out how much cbd flower we would need to vape to get simalar maximun daily doses .

https://medium.com/cbd-origin/what-is-cbd-bioavailability-and-why-does-it-matter-69d9a2e37e6c

Acording to this it says oral cbd will get you between 4 and 20 % of your dose into your bloodstream

Inhalation it says between 34 and 56 % of your dose will make it into your bloodstream .

So if we go somewere in the middle say 10 % for oral and say 26 % for inhalation we can see that vaping would yeild about 2 and a half times the bioavalibilty of cbd to your blood stream .

So if we take that 1500 mg daily dose of oral cbd and convert it to a inhaltion dose we would need to devide the 1500 by 2.5 so

1500 ÷ 2.5 = 600

So you would need to vape 600 mg of cbd to maybe get a simalar dose into your blood stream

For example sake i have a 9 percent cbd strain which if you do the math = 90mg of cbd per gram . Which if you do the math you would have to vape 6.6 grams a day to get your 600 mgs into your blood strram .

This strain was 11 dollars a gram with tax which equals 6.6 × 11 = 73 dollars a day alot cheaper then the oil for sure .

Anyway like i said i have been using cbd daily long term now like 4 years as well as testing my liver enzymes ALT and AST with NO problem at all .

Now ofcoarse no were near these crazy high doses there usingvto try and kill these poor little micies lol but...

Get my drift those are huge freaking amounts of cbd doses and this is with mice we are talking about .

I dont think any of us here unless we have a wicked drug plan or were rich could even afford these doses anyway i aint no doctor or scientist. And just some dude on the internet that said i dont think i would vape a quarter of weed a day just incase . And it would probably start to gross me out if i even tried to vape that much

Edit i made a mistake with my estimate of the 26 % bioavalibity through vaping as some were in the middle should have been maybe 45 % or some were abouts which would mean you need less the the 6.6 grams of 9 % cbd flower to vape which makes it even much cheaper way to get cbd but also lowers the amout you would need to vape to gwt those maxium doses into your bloodstream which could make it easyier to posion your self if this study even can be extrpalated to people from mice

 

[C No Ego]

@chris 71 people grow their own CBD plants from the Nature .... extract and use all the oil they want... just don't get arrested for it...

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Just to be clear, I don't think that normal CBD use is bad for you, and I don't really feel like this study particularly demonized it, either.

I am a very cautious person, and I am not really alarmed, because I don't intend on consuming 4000mg per day for an extended period of time, nor do I plan on taking 16,000mg macro doses.

For one, using CBD isolate ($30/g), that would cost $120/day or $480 per macro dose.

Secondly, pretty much everything that is good for us has a healthy dosage range. I drink matcha almost every day (green tea in powder form), but I don't exceed 2 servings (usually one), because there is a point where it starts to do more damage than good. That doesn't mean that matcha is something to be afraid of, just respected.