% of vapor absorbed?

[Vapetologist]

Does anyone know of any study, scientific or not, that deals with what percentage of a lungful of vapors is actually absorbed by the body? What about vapor molecules that make contact with the mucous membranes with the lips tongue, mouth, etc? I would like to do an efficiency study myself but need to find any hard data that exists. I know this is a total crapshoot, but if anyone has any info I would be super appreciative.

Also, whips seem to collect the most golden goodness, surely there must be some scienterrificness that calculates collection rate of a vapor on a given inner diameter? Any mathamagicians out there? Or I have gone too far...

 

[Tweek]

Just curious...why do you want to know such minutiae?

 

[Enchantre]

Just curious...why do you want to know such minutiae?

Why not? Obviously, a geek.

I like geeks.

 

[Tweek]

Why not? Obviously, a geek.

I like geeks.

To each his/her own, but there is being a geek and being OCD about details that don't really matter in the scheme of things.

That being said, I am still curious as to why he wants to know the info...for a paper, curiosity, what not. Don't see the problem with inquiring.

 

[thevaf]

here is a start

it discusses the site of nicotine absorption from vapor vs smoking cigarettes

Edit: its not free, but in the abstract it basically states nicotine is absorbed in the mouth and throat via mucus membranes vs smoking which is absorbed mostly in the lungs.

 

[Vapetologist]

Just curious...why do you want to know such minutiae?

When we blow out huge clouds, are we not wasting what looks to be massive amounts of vapor? There are some vapes that produce little visible vapor...yet the effect is still present. There is a huge discrepancy there...and I want to push things forward...can we still get the same effect physically and mentally by only using 10% of our current levels? Its an age old question, but one that I think research and technology might soon be able to answer.

With vapes we changed the mechanism with which we inhale. And with some vapes we have had to change the way we inhale. This paradigm shift has only just begun, IMO.

And if it's possible to drastically reduce intake while matching current output...well that isn't minutiae at all - is it?

 

[Tweek]

When we blow out huge clouds, are we not wasting what looks to be massive amounts of vapor? There are some vapes that produce little visible vapor...yet the effect is still present. There is a huge discrepancy there...and I want to push things forward...can we still get the same effect physically and mentally by only using 10% of our current levels? Its an age old question, but one that I think research and technology might soon be able to answer.

With vapes we changed the mechanism with which we inhale. And with some vapes we have had to change the way we inhale. This paradigm shift has only just begun, IMO.

And if it's possible to drastically reduce intake while matching current output...well that isn't minutiae at all - is it?

Well, from an unscientific point of view, I need huge hits to get the effect I want. I find when I do light hits, I need to do many of them to reach the same effect, and even then, I still might not feel it as much as I would on a higher temp range. One big, fat hit off my vaporizer is usually enough to take care of my symptoms right away.

As to vapes that produce lighter vapour for the same effect...that has not been my experience at all. Whether I am hitting a Volcano or an MFLB, I find I need a heavier, denser vapour. You have to keep in mind, that at certain temp ranges, you are releasing more of the actives from the plant (Depending on the strain)

As to waste...I don't worry about it that much. I already save alot by using a vape, and at the end of the day, it's about taking care of my health concerns so that I can get on with my day.

So I look at it as minutiae because it depends on so many variables, such as the individuals desired effects, the strain, the vaporizers set temp, etc, etc...that at this point, there is no real scientific way (or need in my opinion) to figure out any absolutes that would apply to everyone.

And really, you are not wasting that much in visible vapour...not as much as you would be wasting, if you were still smoking.

 

[Vapetologist]

You have to keep in mind, that at certain temp ranges, you are releasing more of the actives from the plant (Depending on the strain)

This is exactly why this kind of scientific study that needs to occur. We need hard data on this.

 

[luchiano]

Read my posts from the last few months. That should help you figure things out.

 

[slick]

Sort of related. Have some old herb, approx 6 months or so. It is now very dry, crumbles when you pinch and roll. I see less physical signs of vapor now as compared to when it was wetter; but the effects are similar enough that I don't notice a difference.

My guess is most of the vapor I was seeing before was just moisture. If that is the case, seeing a big cloud and the % of that cloud being active ingredients is impossible to connect. Or at least impossible to give accurate enough generalities.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i never see visible vapor from the initial release of the h2o from less dry herb - the water just condenses on the inside of the glass draw tube ... but after about 5 minutes of seemingly fruitless toking, the true vapor starts when the trichomes can start to absorb the heat and melt and express their goodies as vapor.

 

[Snappo]

I inhale, hold for only a few seconds, then exhale - mission accomplished ...the desired effect has been had. I meter my vapor doses intuitively, and don't really inhale much more than I need to achieve the desired effect. Very little waste.

 

[MinnBobber]

When we blow out huge clouds, are we not wasting what looks to be massive amounts of vapor? There are some vapes that produce little visible vapor...yet the effect is still present. There is a huge discrepancy there....

.........................................................

There are a couple schools of thought, right lwien
1. lwien and others feel the big clouds fully blast them into orbit and right now. And that it is just as efficient as smaller sips/ more hits.

2. I'm in school #2 that any visible vapor exhaled is wasted goodies that never got a chance to be absorbed as there was way more than the lungs could absorb. I prefer little or no visible vapor and more hits are fine as I'm in no hurry. More small hits is my technique
For me it's like using a spray gun to paint a wall. You can lay on one huge thick runny layer to cover the wall in a hurry OR do several whispy spraypaint layers to cover the wall with less paint.
That's my opinion but others differ.

As others have mentioned, vaping is already way more efficient than smoking BUT for me efficiency is a huge deal. My stash is meager and I need to make it last a looong time. And growers can blow huge clouds as they have virtually unlimited supply/ small cost. My bud was $110 1/4 oz so money also drives my technique.

 

[Snappo]

Specific information derived from laboratory study could be very useful for devices that would use metered dosage packets - I saw one somewhere a time back, I think an Israeli company, not sure. Cool idea though!

 

[Joel W.]

I was thinking about this doing dabs a few days ago when my bubbler kept clogging up with my meds.. Why am I running this through a bubbler (other than habit) if it's not harsh and it's not hot only to watch much of it stick to the cool glass.

That and 2-3 smaller hits of vaped herb vs 1 dab seemed pretty close

 

[ragnorokk]

I'd like to point out that much of what has been scientifically researched is only on THC or CBDs, the effects of which for recreational use are generally misunderstood by the MJ community at large, as well as the scientists studying THC is psychoactive, but does not qualitatively effect your state the way that Terpines do, which are rarely researched, except to state what temp you start to lose them at. What I'm getting at is that often when a scientific study is conducted, they are looking at merely one facet of the issue and the lay folk take the study as though it were somehow comprehensive. So you're asking what percentage is absorbed vs lost, and I'm just saying that it's going to depend on what you wanted to extract in the first place.

That griping out of the way, all the information I've read states that most absorbable compounds from vapor are absorbed during the initial hit. The vapor you exhale does not contain enough anything to provide second hand vape, so what you're losing must surely be negligable, even more so than second hand nug smoke (also almost all absorbed upon initial contact with lungs and mucous membranes).

Granted, my medical MJ handbook w/ citation is not in front of me right now, and is old enough that there may be some newer research discrediting it, but it's the same book I still see being sold as the go to "medical" book.

 

[BuzzDanklin]

@Vapologist There is a study that touched on this a bit. It was mainly about volcano bags, they were testing how long they could sit and still be potent, but they also tested exhaled vapor as well. Unfortunately I cant find the link at the moment, but I remember it having a lot of great information. I will keep looking and post it here if I find it, but if someone else finds it first please post

 

[Grim Chiclets]

THC is psychoactive, but does not qualitatively effect your state the way that Terpines do, which are rarely researched, except to state what temp you start to lose them at.

I love when someone brings this up; as it is important to note that the terpenes can alter the effects your vapors have on you at a magnitude not dissimilar to the balance of thc/cbd/cbn/etc.

 

[ragnorokk]

I love when someone brings this up; as it is important to note that the terpenes can alter the effects your vapors have on you at a magnitude not dissimilar to the balance of thc/cbd/cbn/etc.

Seriously, the balance is far more important than one number by itself (except CBD... I stay away from high CBD). Granted, high THC percentage will likely kick your ass, but is by no means a guarantee. I've had things that were 5% higher THC give me much less impressive effects, similar to how some ugly stuff hits harder than show room nugs.

Terpene effects have been highly neglected by the research community, IMO. I often know what to expect, as far as effect, based off of the scent of the flowers -- that's not a very scientific measuring device, but the terpenes are clearly important to the effect, and have seen minimal research done on them. Until such time as western medicine finds terpene extraction or analog production to be monetarily beneficial, we likely will continue to see a lot of research that has been conducted under false assumptions.

 

[MinnBobber]

• That griping out of the way, all the information I've read states that most absorbable compounds from vapor are absorbed during the initial hit. The vapor you exhale does not contain enough anything to provide second hand vape, so what you're losing must surely be negligable, even more so than second hand nug smoke (also almost all absorbed upon initial contact with lungs and mucous membranes).

...........................................................................
I think the studies say something different, NOT that most absorbable compounds from vapor are absorbed during the initial hit. Meaning there is full extraction.

I think what they DO say is holding the hit longer than 3-5 seconds doesn't not get you higher. At that point the lungs/blood have absorbed all they can/ holding longer yields little. But, there are still many goodies not absorbed/ the blood has absorbed all it can but there is much left in the exhaled vapor.

Lungs only extract about 1/4 of the oxygen for each breathe, see below:

Composition of outer or inhaled air:
O2 - Oxygen 158 mm Hg (20.9%)

Composition of the expired air:
O2 - Oxygen 116 mm Hg (15.3%)


Lungs/blood only extract about 1/4 of the oxygen inhaled and that's a supreme mission of the lungs so I can't see the lungs extracting anywhere near all the THC, cannabinoids, terps. IMO, there is much that is exhaled.
I do, however , wish a true scientific study with proper lab equipment would be done as it would be oh-so-easy-peasy to do !!!!

 

[BuzzDanklin]

Almost 3 hours of searching later and I THINK this might be the Volcano study I was talking about that measured exhaled THC concentration.

It used to be online free, infortunately I cannot find it without a paywall now. Maybe someone has an account here?

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jps.20574/abstract


Edit: Found this chunk of that study on another page, but its not the full details or the graph(s). I wish they showed us the inhaled vs exhaled separately for each dose. Then we could see if the lungs absorbed at the same rate for the lower and higher dose bags:

"Interestingly, it was shown that a large proportion of inhaled THC was not absorbed by the lungs. The total amount of THC used for evaporation was 20 mg of THC for each subject (Rising dose of 2, 4, 6 and 8 mg resulting in a total sum of 20 mg). Taking into account the average delivery yield into the balloon of 53.9%, as found in this study, only an average of 10.8 mg of THC was totally available for inhalation from the balloon. The amount of THC recovered from exhaled breath ranged from 2.5 to 4.4 mg, which means that up to 30-40% of inhaled THC was not absorbed by the lungs. The variability of THC in exhaled breath (relative s.d. ± 5.4%) is comparable to the variability in delivery of THC by the Volcano. Taking this into account it could be concluded that absorption of THC by the lungs is probably very similar between different subjects."

 

[CuckFumbustion]

I'm not impressed by visible clouds when exhaled. More of how the concentration is when delivered/inhaled. Also the initial impact is different for each device/means. Like when you used to combust.

There are two considerations that I think get left out when people experiment with vapor technology.

Draw resistance and the size of the water droplets.

A few examples:
My Pax's vapor on it's low setting is like sipping a cup of tea with the amount of moisture that it extracts. Where my pan vape works, more of the heat of the vapor is experienced.
My Summit's lack of draw resistance affects how quickly the effects are delivered. I am not trying to conflate this % of vapor discussion. But this does touch upon absorption.

Can some geek explain to me why using a water pipe is beneficial, when you are pulling water droplets through a water pipe? Other than harshness?

 

[CuckFumbustion]

because some may like the way it feels — that's beneficial

Well some of those setups that I've seen are quite umm... er.... elaborate. I wouldn't mind a simple tube for the toastier end of session. But there are some setups that simply confuse me.
I've read more articles and posts as to how much they like/love their glass extensions. A little more hard science would be needed for me to have any sort of Dr Frankenstein's laboratory at home. But then again, I'm awaiting for my Extreme - Q to arrive.

 

[Detonator]

if you hold the hit in for as long as you can, then you have absorbed all you could..........

What if you exhale every hit into someone else's mouth? Then see how long it takes them to get high compared to how many hits they normally take to get high.... So if it takes 8 exhaled hits to get the person high and normally they are high just taking 2 hits then 2 / 8 = 1/4 or 25% ..... You blowing out 25% good stuff in this experiment....

Now go back to High school so you can blow hits in yer gf mouth and let us know....

Water? I don't use it anymore... Vapor isn't harsh enough for me to need it... and I think I get better flavor without it...

 

[cybrguy]

That griping out of the way, all the information I've read states that most absorbable compounds from vapor are absorbed during the initial hit. The vapor you exhale does not contain enough anything to provide second hand vape, so what you're losing must surely be negligable, even more so than second hand nug smoke (also almost all absorbed upon initial contact with lungs and mucous membranes).

Well, you forced me to call bullshit on this. Just this weekend I was keeping a friend high by exhaling my exhaust into her mouth. I can't tell you how much actives she was getting compared to me, but I can tell you she seemed to get just as high as I did. Obviously this isn't measurable in this circumstance, but there was still plenty of buzz left in my exhales.

Added: She didn't need any more after I was done.