% of vapor absorbed?

[flotntoke]

because some may like the way it feels — that's beneficial

Like the way it feels, vapor (hot air without water filtration) kind of gets irritating after a few good hits. Bubbler mitigates this, especially during allergy season. Using water also allows me to take larger hits. Given the discussion here, that may not always be a good thing, but I like it!

 

[Joel W.]

Almost 3 hours of searching later and I THINK this might be the Volcano study

full pdf version
Evaluation of a Vaporizing Device (Volcano1) for the ...

 

[fogvalley]

Everyone is affected at slightly different rate, and builds a "tolerance" if you will. With that said it would be hard to get a baseline much less a respectable study. That is why it isn't done. Do I lose more vaping a huge cloud than I would taking a bong rip? Or small puffs like a one hitter? Other then effecieny of the product it made no difference to my high. But I totally understand your reasoning, but the variety is the spice of life and manf won't change what sells even if it was more efficient to the consumer, until the consumer demands it. Most of which probably smoke anyways. The most efficient method is cultivation.

 

[ragnorokk]

Well, you forced me to call bullshit on this. Just this weekend I was keeping a friend high by exhaling my exhaust into her mouth. I can't tell you how much actives she was getting compared to me, but I can tell you she seemed to get just as high as I did. Obviously this isn't measurable in this circumstance, but there was still plenty of buzz left in my exhales.

You mean to tell me that she was getting, 1 for 1, the exact same dosage (or comparatively sized based on body mass), as far as you could perceive? Because I've shotgunned for multiple people before and I've never gotten results that good that weren't fake.

As far as what I actually said, i said second hand, not "shot gun". When people are concerned about second hand smoke, they don't mean "you can't smoke within 20ft of the door, because I'm afraid you'll come blow that directly into my mouth."

As for efficiency, how come I don't see more people blowing their exhaust into a bag and taking it back for round 2 when it's full?

 

[fogvalley]

From a product stand point you have the least amount of cost in product by a crazy margin. So your waste wouldn't matter. Kinda

 

[cybrguy]

You mean to tell me that she was getting, 1 for 1, the exact same dosage (or comparatively sized based on body mass), as far as you could perceive? Because I've shotgunned for multiple people before and I've never gotten results that good that weren't fake.

No, I mean to tell you what I told you. "I can't tell you how much actives she was getting compared to me, but I can tell you she seemed to get just as high as I did."
This is obviously anecdotal, not a scientific study. But I am NOT talking about shotguns. I took a hit, held it, and then exhaled it into her mouth where she inhaled it. And she got as high as she needed to from my exhale and didn't want any more after I was high enough.

Maybe you have a different definition of shotgun than me. For me a shotgun was turning a joint around in my mouth, or putting my mouth around a pipe bowl, and blowing uninhaled smoke down the other person's throat where they inhaled it. I was just like smoking, but at higher volume.

 

[ragnorokk]

I include both pushing vapor/smoke to them, as well as "breathing for them" if you will, because I don't have a better term for hitting and passing the vapor from mouth to mouth. But yeah, forcing smoke into someone else's mouth using your mouth as the propellant.

Also, when I've done that for a girl, there was usually some hormonal shit going on that would make for poor analysis on their part and mine, so maybe I haven't been doing it right (or my long time gf's tolerance is too high for it to be an effective uptake method for her)

 

[BuzzDanklin]

full pdf version
Evaluation of a Vaporizing Device (Volcano1) for the ...

You are awesome for finding this!

At one point in that study it says:

The subjective effect upon the subjects seemed to be in accordance with such a dose as described in other papers. So it seems that a final uptake of 30–40% was reached (relative to loaded amount of THC)

Which sounds like you absorb the same percentage of thc no matter if you inhale and exhale a big cloud or take a wisper draw and dont exhale anything.

 

[CuckFumbustion]

You are awesome!
At one point in that study it says:
Which sounds like you absorb the same percentage of thc no matter if you inhale and exhale a big cloud or take a wisper draw and dont exhale anything.

This was part of Dr Donald Abrams's finding when he did research on the subject during the 1970's and 1980's. Also true when comparing vaporizing to smoking "a joint". (Yes, the article said "joint". The early research was the 70's and who knows what they used as a vaporizer back in the day??)

There is a YouTube video, (

) and other sources regarding his research.

 

[Joel W.]

You are awesome!

 

[ragnorokk]

Dope find.

It says loss (exhaled) tops out at 35% and says that's comparable to combustion.

Interesting.

 

[Snappo]

I consider it to be both anecdotal AND fact that exhaling excess vapor or smoke into another's inhalation will get them high. It has already been scientifically evidenced that not all actives present in vapor are/can be absorbed into the bloodstream via the lungs on first inhalation, ergo, what remains for exhalation passed on to another will contain actives. Is anyone REALLY disputing this at this point ...REALLY???!!!! There is waste in EVERYTHING, so get what you can get and get on with it - so be it!

 

[flotntoke]

You are awesome for finding this!
At one point in that study it says:
Which sounds like you absorb the same percentage of thc no matter if you inhale and exhale a big cloud or take a wisper draw and dont exhale anything.

Thanks for finding. Great stuff!

Now really wishing for a similar study showing effects of re-breathing like @steama was talking about above (think have seen it called LIT, too). Wonder how much that 35% +/- drops if taking a couple mini breaths on top of the same hit?

 

[Joel W.]

Now really wishing for a similar study

All the footnotes are at the bottom of that PDF. You can search for those and then they have footnotes too.

Cannabis Vaporizer Combines Efficient Delivery of THC with Effective Suppression of Pyrolytic Compounds
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/jcantgieringervapor.pdf

http://www.ukcia.org/research/ComparisonOfSmoke.pdf

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v25/n5/full/1395716a.html

and so on. links are examples of a few, i can't understand that stuff..

 

[Joel W.]

Sorry for the double post. Unable to edit. Quick thought...

My take from this so far is, there is only so much that can be absorbed during inhalation but I think when comparing a fat dab to a fat hit of vaped herb there might be other forms of absorbtion going on as @Snappo suggested.

Coating the mouth, esophagus and lung walls with thicker/denser concentrated oils, may lead to dermal absorbstion along with injestion when later coughed up and swallowed . yummmy..

So holding it in longer may let it cool and condense more on tissue especially when introducing fresh cool air with the LIT tech

My 2 cents

Edit: unless we hack up a lugi and spit it between our toes, my use of the word dermal does not apply I think. Any absorption on the inside (besides inhaleation )would be considered ingestion absorbsion but I might be wrong here.

 

[Snappo]

Sorry for the double post. Unable to edit. Quick thought...

My take from this so far is, there is only so much that can be absorbed during inhalation but I think when comparing a fat dab to a fat hit of vaped herb there might be other forms of absorbtion going on as @Snappo suggested.

Coating the mouth, esophagus and lung walls with thicker/denser concentrated oils, may lead to dermal absorbstion along with injestion when later coughed up and swallowed . yummmy..

So holding it in longer may let it cool and condense more on tissue especially when introducing fresh cool air with the LIT tech

My 2 cents

Right! Any residual vapor ingredients will coat the linings of the throat, esophagus, stomach, and lungs to a small extent and gradually succumb to absorption. Perhaps the effects felt would not be that of potency so much as extended longevity.

Edit: My subjective experience also tells me that terpenes serve to invigorate the overall effects in subtle albeit very noticeable ways, and given terpene supplementation some time after initial herb intake reinvigorates the effects as they are dwindling - I drink teas that are heavy with terpene rich essential oils. Makes a big difference, IME.

 

[fft]

Just seeing this thread now. So the answer is like 2/3 of the THC you inhale in getting absorbed. That seems pretty damn efficient.

I had this same Arno Hazekamp paper, but part of what I think is his PhD thesis where that paper is one of 10 chapters. Its a really good reference so here is the link to the larger pdf: Cannabis; Extracting the Medicine. Its full of interesting references and has a good discussion on decarboxlyation in one of the chapters.

 

[cybrguy]

can't get the larger report. won't let me sign up without credentials

 

[howie105]

.........................................................

There are a couple schools of thought, right lwien
1. lwien and others feel the big clouds fully blast them into orbit and right now. And that it is just as efficient as smaller sips/ more hits.

2. I'm in school #2 that any visible vapor exhaled is wasted goodies that never got a chance to be absorbed as there was way more than the lungs could absorb. I prefer little or no visible vapor and more hits are fine as I'm in no hurry. More small hits is my technique
For me it's like using a spray gun to paint a wall. You can lay on one huge thick runny layer to cover the wall in a hurry OR do several whispy spraypaint layers to cover the wall with less paint.
That's my opinion but others differ.

As others have mentioned, vaping is already way more efficient than smoking BUT for me efficiency is a huge deal. My stash is meager and I need to make it last a looong time. And growers can blow huge clouds as they have virtually unlimited supply/ small cost. My bud was $110 1/4 oz so money also drives my technique.

May I suggest a third school that most of us attend, that being the high school of perception. If we feel like we are or are not stoned then failing any other method of assessment we are what we believe. Not running that down because it is the way the brain and body things are wired. Now, if I could only convince myself I am at a 10 on .001g I would be all set....ur, never mind.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

Taking into account the average delivery yield into the balloon of 53.9%, as found in this study, only an average of 10.8 mg of THC was totally available for inhalation from the balloon. The amount of THC recovered from exhaled breath ranged from 2.5 to 4.4 mg, which means that up to 30-40% of inhaled THC was not absorbed by the lungs.

did they measure how much THC was stuck to the inside of the bag? maybe they are getting >40% of the inhaled THC, rather than 30-40% of what the Volcano delivered into the bag.

 

[BuzzDanklin]

did they measure how much THC was stuck to the inside of the bag? maybe they are getting >40% of the inhaled THC, rather than 30-40% of what the Volcano delivered into the bag.

They measured how much stuck on the inside of the bag, as well as how much stuck to the side of the rest of the pieces, like the bowl/valve/chamber etc.

It the balloon was extracted within 5 min after vaporizing, less than 2% of the total dose was recovered from the inner surface of the baloon.

Looking at their graph, by 5 minutes 2% is on the ballon, by 60 minutes, 45% of the dose has condensated onto the balloon, and by 180 minutes, all 100% has condensated onto the balloon.

 

[Joel W.]

I'd like to see that test with one of the guys that vapes .5g dabs tho.

Edit: the amounts might change but % would be the same I guess.

 

[ragnorokk]

Relax, @Snappo. I was really impressed by that 35%, as I'd always been led to believe it was closer to 15%, which I find negligible as I said before.

I don't deny that someone can get high from your exhaust, only that they can get to the same level as you without some sort of front loading on their end. It's just simple math. 35% of a hit doesn't equal 100% of a hit. Sorry if I struck some sort of nerve, but I cannot believe the mathematically impossible.

Note too that size and tolerance level of the subjects were not mentioned, so I didn't take them into account -- I'm saying if I wanted to get a clone of me high, ~1/3 of what I'm getting still wouldn't work.

The girls I've done this for were somewhat smaller than me and got high, but not as high as me. Based on the report linked earlier, it would seem this is due to the fact that I was taking in 3 hits to their 1, and none of them were less tolerant and/or ~1/3 my size.

 

[Snappo]

You mean to tell me that she was getting, 1 for 1, the exact same dosage (or comparatively sized based on body mass), as far as you could perceive? Because I've shotgunned for multiple people before and I've never gotten results that good that weren't fake.

As far as what I actually said, i said second hand, not "shot gun". When people are concerned about second hand smoke, they don't mean "you can't smoke within 20ft of the door, because I'm afraid you'll come blow that directly into my mouth."

As for efficiency, how come I don't see more people blowing their exhaust into a bag and taking it back for round 2 when it's full?

Please read your own posts above and below and then consider taking your own advice to "Relax". I personally don't really care that much one way or the other (and the math bores me to tears, or laughter), but will express my views and contribute as I see fit, as should we all.

 

[ragnorokk]

I still have not gotten results of the person getting as baked as me. Just like I said twice now.

I notice I did go back and edit at some point and write "comparatively sized based on body mass".

I too am expressing my view, which I believe you just advocated for... If any of this was taken in an inflammitory manner, I'll try to check myself next time before I hit post.

And now knowing that the loss is 35%, seriously... Is it just that re breathing your own stale hit is kinda gross that's keeping more people from doing it?