Obamacare

[BigDaddyVapor]

Socialist statistics? How 'bout the stats provided by our own CIA in their FactBook that lists us as #35 in life expectancy ?

Does it change anything?

No.

I wonder, if the fact we're an obese country has anything to do with life expectancy? What do you think?

 

[lwien]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy


So lets, see, BDV, you believe that these stats are totally bogus? What would have to happen for them to be more credible for you?

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

So lets, see, BDV, you believe that these stats are totally bogus? What would have to happen for them to be more credible for you?

Try reading above.

 

[Tea Party]

What i want to know now is what will be the deal for illegal people living in the US.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

You know what, lwien. Those stats, this argument... are moot points.

The fact is, Obamacare did not score a huge victory today. It was very unpopular legislation, that has now been exposed as the TAX it is. States, also have the right to opt-out. Romney, now has a HUGE campaign platform and Obama's was taken away.

If you want to look up links, try checking Romney's campaign donations for today alone. Also, get back to us on the stock market today at opening and closing? Might as well, check for exactly what those TWENTY-ONE new taxes and TWELVE on people under $250,000k. Might also want to read Obamacare and find out what it really says. Its not the socialized medicine people think it is. Its a boatload of money for the feds and the insurance companies.

So, as I said... spare me the stats. Stats don't matter, when it hasn't anything to do with the argument, of legislation that just got hammered today, even though it passed muster with the SCOTUS. All they did, was confirm what everyone has been saying all this time. Its a TAX.

I couldn't care less what the CIA says about life expectancy in a country full of fatasses.

 

[Tea Party]

BDV, have you seen the list of taxes?

My industry will be hit hard.

 

[lwien]

Try reading above.

So let's see. First, you dismiss the stats because you believed that they came from Socialist governments and therefore were bogus, but then when I posted up stats by our own government, you play the obesity card and then.........you pull out the tax card and state that because we are taxed, that a tax supersedes any health benefits that we may see thru this plan and therefore, those health stats are meaningless.

So, first they were meaningless because they came from Socialist governments. Then they were meaningless because we are obese. And then they were meaningless because we are being taxed. Anything else that would make those stats meaningless?

Yes, obesity plays a big part in this. So let me ask you a question. Do you think the government should play a more active role in trying to bring obesity down by funding educational programs on obesity, or laws that would inhibit the use of fructose corn syrup, ect, ect. ? Most of those on the right want less government involved in our lives, not more, so............what's the solution to the obesity problem?

To me, obesity and the health care system are tied at the hip.

And regarding taxes, I find it amusing, at least to me, that the word TAX scares the shit out Right Winged Conservative Republicans. To me, tax is not a bad word. The question is, what is the tax paying for and does it benefit us? Fuck, I could bitch all day long about my tax dollars going to wars that I never supported, or that 500 dollar hammer that the Air Force purchased, but overall, I feel that I am living in one of the best countries in the world, and I am more than willing to pay for that privilege, be it serving in the military, or paying taxes. And............if an additional tax helps to increase our lifespan, if it helps to keep people like Vicky covered, if it provides for a healthier nation, then I am more than willing to pay those extra dollars to my country.

I don't think that there is any country in the world, including our own that can say that they have a GREAT health care system. There are bugs in all of them. NONE of them are perfect, but there are those out there that are a helluva lot better than ours. Ours needs to be tweaked..........big time, and in lieu of anything better, I'll take Obama's plan as a step in the right direction.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

BDV, have you seen the list of taxes?

My industry will be hit hard.

I've seen some of them and the effect they will have, but I've haven't seen a break down of all 21, no.

 

[Tea Party]

what's the solution to the obesity problem?

.

Yes quit coddeling the obese, No more going on dissability because you are fat. Or getting to take up half of the person's seat next to you on an air plane with out paying them.

While a very small mirnority may be fat for a number of reasons, including genetics, most people are just lazy. It's not that hard to get some exercise and eat healthy.

 

[Tea Party]

I've seen some of them and the effect they will have, but I've haven't seen a break down of all 21, no.

Comprehensive List of Obamacare Tax Hikes in Order of Effective Date
Obamacare law contains 20 new or higher taxes on American families and small businesses

1. Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (Min$/immediate): $50,000 per hospital if they fail to meet new "community health assessment needs," "financial assistance," and "billing and collection" rules set by HHS. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,961-1,971
2. Codification of the “economic substance doctrine” (Tax hike of $4.5 billion). This provision allows the IRS to disallow completely-legal tax deductions and other legal tax-minimizing plans just because the IRS deems that the action lacks “substance” and is merely intended to reduce taxes owed. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 108-113
3. “Black liquor” tax hike (Tax hike of $23.6 billion). This is a tax increase on a type of bio-fuel. Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 105
4. Tax on Innovator Drug Companies ($22.2 bil/Jan 2010): $2.3 billion annual tax on the industry imposed relative to share of sales made that year. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,971-1,980
5. Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike ($0.4 bil/Jan 2010): The special tax deduction in current law for Blue Cross/Blue Shield companies would only be allowed if 85 percent or more of premium revenues are spent on clinical services. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,004
6. Tax on Indoor Tanning Services ($2.7 billion/July 1, 2010): New 10 percent excise tax on Americans using indoor tanning salons. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,397-2,399
• Page 2
2011
7. Medicine Cabinet Tax ($5 bil/Jan 2011): Americans no longer able to use health savings account (HSA), flexible spending account (FSA), or health reimbursement (HRA) pre-tax dollars to purchase non-prescription, over-the-counter medicines (except insulin). Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957-1,959
8. HSA Withdrawal Tax Hike ($1.4 bil/Jan 2011): Increases additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,959
2012
9. Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2 (Min$/Jan 2012): Preamble to taxing health benefits on individual tax returns. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,957
2013
10. Surtax on Investment Income ($123 billion/Jan. 2013): Creation of a new, 3.8 percent surtax on investment income earned in households making at least $250,000 ($200,000 single). This would result in the following top tax rates on investment income: Bill: Reconciliation Act; Page: 87-93
Capital Gains
Dividends
Other*
2012
15%
15%
35%
2013+
23.8%
43.4%
43.4%
*Other unearned income includes (for surtax purposes) gross income from interest, annuities, royalties, net rents, and passive income in partnerships and Subchapter-S corporations. It does not include municipal bond interest or life insurance proceeds, since those do not add to gross income. It does not include active trade or business income, fair market value sales of ownership in pass-through entities, or distributions from retirement plans. The 3.8% surtax does not apply to non-resident aliens.
11. Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax ($86.8 bil/Jan 2013): Current law and changes:
First $200,000 ($250,000 Married) Employer/Employee
All Remaining Wages Employer/Employee
Current Law
1.45%/1.45% 2.9% self-employed
1.45%/1.45% 2.9% self-employed
Obamacare Tax Hike
1.45%/1.45% 2.9% self-employed
1.45%/2.35% 3.8% self-employed
• Page 3
Bill: PPACA, Reconciliation Act; Page: 2000-2003; 87-93
12. Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers ($20 bil/Jan 2013): Medical device manufacturers employ 360,000 people in 6000 plants across the country. This law imposes a new 2.3% excise tax. Exempts items retailing for <$100. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,980-1,986
13. Raise "Haircut" for Medical Itemized Deduction from 7.5% to 10% of AGI ($15.2 bil/Jan 2013): Currently, those facing high medical expenses are allowed a deduction for medical expenses to the extent that those expenses exceed 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI). The new provision imposes a threshold of 10 percent of AGI. Waived for 65+ taxpayers in 2013-2016 only. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,994-1,995
14. Flexible Spending Account Cap – aka “Special Needs Kids Tax” ($13 bil/Jan 2013): Imposes cap on FSAs of $2500 (now unlimited). Indexed to inflation after 2013. There is one group of FSA owners for whom this new cap will be particularly cruel and onerous: parents of special needs children. There are thousands of families with special needs children in the United States, and many of them use FSAs to pay for special needs education. Tuition rates at one leading school that teaches special needs children in Washington, D.C. (National Child Research Center) can easily exceed $14,000 per year. Under tax rules, FSA dollars can be used to pay for this type of special needs education. Bill: PPACA; Page: 2,388-2,389
15. Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D ($4.5 bil/Jan 2013) Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,994
16. $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives ($0.6 bil/Jan 2013). Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,995-2,000
2014
17. Individual Mandate Excise Tax (Jan 2014): Starting in 2014, anyone not buying “qualifying” health insurance must pay an income surtax according to the higher of the following
1 Adult
2 Adults
3+ Adults
2014
1% AGI/$95
1% AGI/$190
1% AGI/$285
2015
2% AGI/$325
2% AGI/$650
2% AGI/$975
2016 +
2.5% AGI/$695
2.5% AGI/$1390
2.5% AGI/$2085
Exemptions for religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes, and hardship cases (determined by HHS). Bill: PPACA; Page: 317-337
18. Employer Mandate Tax (Jan 2014): If an employer does not offer health coverage, and at least one employee qualifies for a health tax credit, the employer must pay an additional non-deductible tax of $2000 for all full-time employees. Applies to all employers with 50 or more
• Page 4
employees. If any employee actually receives coverage through the exchange, the penalty on the employer for that employee rises to $3000. If the employer requires a waiting period to enroll in coverage of 30-60 days, there is a $400 tax per employee ($600 if the period is 60 days or longer). Bill: PPACA; Page: 345-346
Combined score of individual and employer mandate tax penalty: $65 billion/10 years
19. Tax on Health Insurers ($60.1 bil/Jan 2014): Annual tax on the industry imposed relative to health insurance premiums collected that year. Phases in gradually until 2018. Fully-imposed on firms with $50 million in profits. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,986-1,993
2018
20. Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans ($32 bil/Jan 2018): Starting in 2018, new 40 percent excise tax on “Cadillac” health insurance plans ($10,200 single/$27,500 family). Higher threshold ($11,500 single/$29,450 family) for early retirees and high-risk professions. CPI +1 percentage point indexed. Bill: PPACA; Page: 1,941-1,956

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

So let's see. First, you dismiss the stats because you believed that they came from Socialist governments and therefore were bogus, but then when I posted up stats by our own government, you play the obesity card?

Yes, obesity plays a big part in this. So let me ask you a question. Do you think the government should play a more active role in trying to bring obesity down by funding educational programs on obesity, or laws that would inhibit the use of fructose corn syrup, ect, ect. ? Most of those on the right want less government involved in our lives, not more, so............what's the solution to the obesity problem?

To me, obesity and the health care system are tied at the hip.

To me, personal responsibility and obesity are tied at the hip.

Again, the stats are a moot point. Who cares, if I dismissed them, or not... or the source? They're meaningless in this discussion, which is Obamacare.

Do you think its the government's job to ban salt in restaurants, or soda, or whatever else they deem bad for us? WHO the @#$% is the government to tell me or you, how you should live your life. A pot smoker/vaporist of ALL people should get that.

MMJ patients, really got screwed. It ain't covered, it ain't recognized and as a CLass 1 drug, oh... they might have to take you, can't turn you away... but they sure as @#$% can make you pay for it.

Solution to obesity is responsible parenting, quit shoving food down your throat and pay attention to what you are. Hell, I've lost 30 pounds, just doing that. All by myself, without a single bit of help or education, from the government.

So please, you were saying?

 

[Tea Party]

How the left reacts.

http://twitchy.com/2012/06/28/justi...urls-vile-racial-slurs-house-nigga-uncle-tom/

 

[zmurder]

WHO the @#$% is the government to tell me or you, how you should live your life. A pot smoker/vaporist of ALL people should get that.

MMJ patients, really got screwed. It ain't covered, it ain't recognized and as a CLass 1 drug, oh... they might have to take you, can't turn you away... but they sure as @#$% can make you pay for it.

This is so true, and is why I wish MMJ supporters on here who also support Obamacare would take a second look. Putting a government that doesn't recognize and is hostile towards your medicine in charge of your healthcare is probably not going to be a good thing.

 

[Vicki]

I would rather have to wait a while to get SOME care, which is better than the alternative which is NO care at all.

 

[Tea Party]

I would rather have to wait a while to get SOME care, which is better than the alternative which is NO care at all.

How would you feel if instead of getting a surgery you needed to improve the quality of life, you were told it's to expensive and that you couldn't contribute enough to society for them to consider it.

THAT is what's coming.

 

[Tea Party]

This is so true, and is why I wish MMJ supporters on here who also support Obamacare would take a second look. Putting a government that doesn't recognize and is hostile towards your medicine in charge of your healthcare is probably not going to be a good thing.

Mark my words, people who are known smokers will be paying an extra fine or tax in the name of healthcare costs.

 

[Rick]

Wow! Lots of action on this thread. I am glad we have a couple folks who like to use the word socialism alot and put Vicki down for her positive expectations from this supreme court decision. I love to hear you righties with your logical put downs of all things community. Ya got yer own fuckin bootstraps folks. Fuck the genes or uninsured car accidents. Fuck the consequences of good old corporate greed selling things like poison to the military in the Vietnam war. Fuck that! Ya got your bootstraps! Pull on 'em Vicki....go on do it, you'll be fine. You don't need coverage for pre-existing conditions. After all that is not profitable! A real sin in the new right wing world.

OMG, bring me back to the days of reasonable right wing folks who respect those who disagree. Bring us back to some common sense and stop this fucking greedy me thing with no taxes. Kill the beast(govt) you say. Who takes over when you kill the beast?

There will be lots of fuck ups and lots of corrections but it is started. If you want to blame someone for all the money for corps and insurance companies, blame the GOP. Obama had to compromise on this so it is more fucked than in should be.
Fuck you guys and your socialist shit. How about fire departments? Police? Military? Libraries? And on and on. Your super capitalists going to do that job too?
Alright! got that off my chest. And I am a capitalist! (small c)
I say.....take that limbo, fuckannity and crowds. Roberts said fuck you, just as he did on immigration. See how stupid Bush was? Could not even pick a true right comrade.
Happy day.
edit
tea party, I love your words. Three cheers for free speech and how it shows us all so clearly the wide range of sanity even in this elite forum.

 

[Vicki]

How would you feel if instead of getting a surgery you needed to improve the quality of life, you were told it's to expensive and that you couldn't contribute enough to society for them to consider it.

THAT is what's coming.

THAT is what I am going through now WITH insurance. My insurance has a $5,000.00 deductible that must be met BEFORE a dime is ever paid by insurance, oh and there are the copays too. We have insurance through an employer and pay $425.00 a month to have it! So, I sit here, not able to have the surgeries I need because we don't have $5,000.00 check to hand over to the hospital.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Who the @#$% put Vicky down?

You sure do put a lot of words, in peoples' mouths. I see you also like to use a big wide sweeping brush and like to bring it to people.

You want to bring the level of discourse down to what you're spewing. Kid, I got some news for you...

 

[zmurder]

I respect you (Rick) and Vicki, even though we disagree. And you guys won this one, so understand that those on the other side are gonna be a bit upset today (as I said, I live in Madison, and after the failed recall the liberals around here really needed this one!). Bush couldn't do anything right, so I'm not surprised that he picked a big government conservative (Roberts) instead of any kind of libertarian. I personally believe Obamacare won't lead to the great outcomes that its supporters say it will. I think it will lead to very bad outcomes, for the poor, for those with preexisting conditions, for medical research in general, etc..... I don't oppose Obamacare b/c I hate the poor and don't want to pay any taxes .... I oppose it b/c I think it will end up screwing the poor (and everybody else) and b/c it sets an incredibly bad precedent for congressional power.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Fuck you guys and your socialist shit.

Funny, for someone who was just railing on, about free speech. You sure seemed to get that one out, OK.

I respect you (Rick) and Vicki, even though we disagree. And you guys won this one, so understand that those on the other side are gonna be a bit upset today (as I said, I live in Madison, and after the failed recall the liberals around here really needed this one!). Bush couldn't do anything right, so I'm not surprised that he picked a big government conservative (Roberts) instead of any kind of libertarian. I personally believe Obamacare won't lead to the great outcomes that its supporters say it will. I think it will lead to very bad outcomes, for the poor, for those with preexisting conditions, for medical research in general, etc..... I don't oppose Obamacare b/c I hate the poor and don't want to pay any taxes .... I oppose it b/c I think it will end up screwing the poor (and everybody else) and b/c it sets an incredibly bad precedent for congressional power.

They didn't "win". That's the point.

As this get's dissected more and people actually read the opinion of the court, they will see... the SCOTUS didn't do anything, other than say... "sorry, this is a tax, it is the domain of congress". DO you remember how much pushback there was against the "we don't know what's in it, until we pass it" and the SEVENTY-PERCENT of Americans that disagreed with the legislation.

Roberts move was brilliant and calculated. Regardless how many f bombs, Rick wants to throw around and the childish insults he wants to spew.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

[merged]

 

[lwien]

OMG, bring me back to the days of reasonable right wing folks who respect those who disagree.

No shit. While I have been a Dem my whole life, hell I was even born into it, I ALWAYS had respect for the Republicans. Always. And in the government, the Dems and the Repubs always found a way to work through their differences for the betterment of our country. But something happened the Republicans along the way. They got hijacked by Extreme Right Winged Conservatives.

I remember a time when Conservatives and Liberals inhabited BOTH parties. At one time there was such a thing as a left wing Republican and a right winged Democrat. A conservative Democrat and a Liberal Republican. It existed..........at one time. The extremes where in such the minority, that they were thought by both parties to be on the fringe. No longer though. The fringe has become the mainstream. So sad............

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Yet, the left is the one, tossing around the sweeping generalizations, f bombs, putting words in peoples' mouths and insulting. Oh... then complaining of free speech.

Oh, for the days of a left-wing, not filled with such hypocrisy. Do as I say... not as I do. Wonder if Obamao is going to throw a big multimillion dollar party, for the Hollywood Elite on his BIG victory?

Meanwhile... LET THEM EAT, CAKE.

Suckers.

 

[Rick]

tea, thanks for the itemization of all the taxes required to pay for this first attempt at some kind of national health care.
It does have to be paid for.
I would much rather see us tax and spend than borrow and spend as the GOP prefers.
Guess I am just a dumb old liberal socialist piece of shit, eh?
I love how you guys take what people say and turn it into a Limbaugh talking point. Good job! Keep up the good work telling us how we need to fear the liberal dems motives. Throw that fear out!
Sleep well knowing your tide has crested. Get ready for 'the base' going to the basement.
BTW, states can only reject the new Medicaid expansion if they choose. They will not lose existing medicaid money if they reject the new money with strings attached. You can bet many of the sweet GOP states will do just that. After all, it affects the those who cannot afford insurance. Fuck them! Get a job! Get some goddamn personal responsibility! You lazy fucks!
The States CANNOT reject Obamacare with insurance mandates, etc. You lost that one. That was the big one, remember?
BDV, thanks so much for your enlightenment also.
MMJ patients will always get screwed for now anyway. You think your buddies would treat them better? Gimme a break!