Micro-dosing

[chris 71]

Not quite - with smoking you are converting those actives to harmful combustion byproducts via pyrolysis, so you absolutely are not "getting everything at once."

If you want something more consistent from start to finish, try concentrates.

sorry but i would have to disagree here , i think , but i am wrong sometimes lol .

you would get all the actives all at once when you light it on fire . which you most definitely wouldnt with vaping just one or two puffs .

edit :: right here it looks like i stand corrected by the post above by vapismos who points out with a tiny amount in his vapcap he can extract all off the goodie in just one or two puffs

i agree though , you would also get a bunch of other gross un necessary stuff from burning .
it would be great if there was a vape that would vape the whole sample in just one puff . not sure maybe the sublimulator would do this ? im not sure i never used one . a bag vape might but then you would have filled a whole bag for just one puff .

not sure by your comment , invertedisdead if you understand what im getting

edit again lol ok after reading your post again invertedisdead , i see what you mean by not getting all the actives because some are destroyed but that not what i was meaning i was meaning the full spectrum of a particular sample

 

[chris 71]

Yeah i guess which vaporizer one uses is very important. I use a Vapcap that i load a very small ammount that is enough to give me 1 or 2 puffs then it's gone.

i was wondering about the vapcap for this reason too . i think it might be my next vape for this very reason thanks

 

[invertedisdead]

Yeah i guess which vaporizer one uses is very important. I use a Vapcap that i load a very small ammount that is enough to give me 1 or 2 puffs then it's gone.

@invertedisdead i was thinking about this also. Especially for a long time user who has raised high tolerance just 48hours sounds little. The method though suggest a small break and lowering the dosage, then slowly up it.

That's exactly how I use my vapcap! To extract the whole load in one hit or so, it's excellent.

My experience with a short break like that for a regular consumer like myself, is I'm pretty much back to normal after the first (rather potent) session. I find if i can stretch 4 hours between dosing, I can microdose very effectively. That's only 4x a day for an all day user. If I want to top off every hour or two I my tolerance rises.

sorry but i would have to disagree here , i think , but i am wrong sometimes lol .

you would get all the actives all at once when you light it on fire . which you most definitely wouldnt with vaping just one or two puffs .

edit :: right here it looks like i stand corrected by the post above by vapismos who points out with a tiny amount in his vapcap he can extract all off the goodie in just one or two puffs

i agree though , you would also get a bunch of other gross un necessary stuff from burning .
it would be great if there was a vape that would vape the whole sample in just one puff . not sure maybe the sublimulator would do this ? im not sure i never used one . a bag vape might but then you would have filled a whole bag for just one puff .

not sure by your comment , invertedisdead if you understand what im getting

edit again lol ok after reading your post again invertedisdead , i see what you mean by not getting all the actives because some are destroyed but that not what i was meaning i was meaning the full spectrum of a particular sample

It sounds like we are on the same page then - I agree, full extraction in one puff tends to be ideal. Not too many vapes can really do it. The bag vape is probably the worst at this just because I find it inefficient if you don't fill up the whole bag, and if you don't finish the bag it will just dissipate anyways. That's what dethroned the volcano from my daily driver after 5 years, is the inability to take a puff without filling a whole bag.

Cloud Evo, Vapcap, Supreme 3, Newvape FlowerPot, Herborizer Ti - those would be some good candidates for fast extraction. Lately I prefer concentrates though for ease of administration.

 

[Squiby]

The Vapcap is excellent for microdosing, whether you are vaping bud or concentrates.

You can kill the load in one toke or three with bud depending how hot you heat it. I vape several times a day with .015 gm each load.

For concentrates, I pop half a concentrate pad in the chamber and load the total amount I intend on vaping throughout the day. One heating cycle and a toke will get you there. In a few hours heat the Vapcap again. You can carry on sipping the Vapcap all day long with shatter or rosin. It's fantastic!

 

[Krazy]

There is a big difference between a truly "micro" dose, and a small dose. With a "micro" dose you probably shouldn't be getting high. When they refer to using low doses in experiments on mice and such, they often explain that the doses aren't high enough to cause the same effects as a normal dose. On this forum, people tend to say they are "micro" dosing, when they are getting ripped. To me, that's just a small dose with a super low tolerance.

So do you have a dose size in mind to qualify as "micro dosing" or is it simply a quantity so small that the person doing it can't feel any difference? Serious question.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

So do you have a dose size in mind to qualify as "micro dosing" or is it simply a quantity so small that the person doing it can't feel any difference? Serious question.

Given the fact that ~3mg of THC, can produce a full blown high/stone in someone with no tolerance, I'd say an absolute maximum of 1mg THC. Probably significantly less.

 

[C No Ego]

good video , the only problem with trying this with vaporizing as opposed to smoking, and is something that i was thinking about is , he talks about just taking one puff off a vaporizer and then putting it down .

i can see how this would work with smoking but not vapor , depending on which vaporizer one is using may make a difference as well . the problem being that when we vaporize because of the slow process of the conversion of all the elements that make up the cannabis we are using , example . ( thc ,cbd , cbn, terps flaviods ect ect ) . some of these things convert faster to vapor then others . so if we just take one or even two puffs the effects maybe different from the starting end of the bowl to the last of the bowl .

smoking on the other hand would release everything at once .

an on demand style vape could deliver a big single dose or two doses... it is like grilling, throw the meat on a really hot heat to seer the edges... if the fire is not hot enough the juices run out and do not seer

 

[howie105]

If I weren't so thorough I would probably be a better micro user with my Nano but I always want to make sure I have cleaned out the load with a stir and one or two longer hotter hits. Its not that I don't know the taste and most of the actives are gone early on (mostly cooked off on the first draw) or that the shelves are so bare that I really need to stretch supplies its just me being sure that the load is all used up.....OK I am that cheap.

 

[chris 71]

Given the fact that ~3mg of THC, can produce a full blown high/stone in someone with no tolerance, I'd say an absolute maximum of 1mg THC. Probably significantly less.

just to throw this out there , in order to get a 1 mg dose . if your cannabis had 10 percent thc you would need to have have a hundredth of a gram .01 because a ten % sample would have about 100 mg per gram thats if you could get all the thc from the sample .
. to get a 10 mg dose you would need .1 of a gram amount and again you would need to get it all into the the body ? .
i believe correct me if im wrong , but i recall reading some were that a lose packed standard solo stem holds about .1 g ?

if this is correct and with the extraction ability of vaping being any were from 50 to 80 percent depending on which vaporizer you use . and according to this study the highest extraction rate coming from the solo

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

im trying to point out how that its not so simple to figure out how many milligram dose you would actully get .

when taking into consideration that you are losing actives if you are blowing out vapor from your lungs in between hits . that 10 mg dose in your solo even if extracted to almost 100 percent to equal a 10 mg dose . by the time you consider the lost vapor you are not actually getting into your body . that solo bowl of 10 percent thc could actually amount to a very small dose your actually getting . possibly even only 1 mg or less . like wise , when all things considered it could take three bowls of ten percent thc to get that 3 mg or less dose of thc which would seem from the amount of vaping , not what i would consider micro vaping and probably most would be pretty high lol

thinking about it this way suddenly micro dosing dosnt necessarily mean micro vaping ?

does this make sense ? did i just have a brain fart or moment of clarity ? lol

 

[howie105]

If all my vapes were the same, used in the same way, in the same circumstances, with the same MJ I would still be faced with individual variations in daily sensitivity and expectations so looking too deeply into the pool of variable details always gets me lost in the minutia. Being a simple soul (maybe just simple) I usually pack what I think I need or want and hope I am right.

 

[C No Ego]

just to throw this out there , in order to get a 1 mg dose . if your cannabis had 10 percent thc you would need to have have a hundredth of a gram .01 because a ten % sample would have about 100 mg per gram thats if you could get all the thc from the sample .
. to get a 10 mg dose you would need .1 of a gram amount and again you would need to get it all into the the body ? .
i believe correct me if im wrong , but i recall reading some were that a lose packed standard solo stem holds about .1 g ?

if this is correct and with the extraction ability of vaping being any were from 50 to 80 percent depending on which vaporizer you use . and according to this study the highest extraction rate coming from the solo

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

im trying to point out how that its not so simple to figure out how many milligram dose you would actully get .

when taking into consideration that you are losing actives if you are blowing out vapor from your lungs in between hits . that 10 mg dose in your solo even if extracted to almost 100 percent to equal a 10 mg dose . by the time you consider the lost vapor you are not actually getting into your body . that solo bowl of 10 percent thc could actually amount to a very small dose your actually getting . possibly even only 1 mg or less . like wise , when all things considered it could take three bowls of ten percent thc to get that 3 mg or less dose of thc which would seem from the amount of vaping , not what i would consider micro vaping and probably most would be pretty high lol

thinking about it this way suddenly micro dosing dosnt necessarily mean micro vaping ?

does this make sense ? did i just have a brain fart or moment of clarity ? lol

your example involves thc %.... add all the other terpenes and constituent plant parts and that equals the synergistic effect of thc enhancement via the less volatile Sesquiterpenes. depending on terpene amount, all the thc effects are modulated by them

thc is anticlimactic without the terpenes

 

[EverythingsHazy]

just to throw this out there , in order to get a 1 mg dose . if your cannabis had 10 percent thc you would need to have have a hundredth of a gram .01 because a ten % sample would have about 100 mg per gram thats if you could get all the thc from the sample .
. to get a 10 mg dose you would need .1 of a gram amount and again you would need to get it all into the the body ? .
i believe correct me if im wrong , but i recall reading some were that a lose packed standard solo stem holds about .1 g ?

if this is correct and with the extraction ability of vaping being any were from 50 to 80 percent depending on which vaporizer you use . and according to this study the highest extraction rate coming from the solo

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147286

im trying to point out how that its not so simple to figure out how many milligram dose you would actully get .

when taking into consideration that you are losing actives if you are blowing out vapor from your lungs in between hits . that 10 mg dose in your solo even if extracted to almost 100 percent to equal a 10 mg dose . by the time you consider the lost vapor you are not actually getting into your body . that solo bowl of 10 percent thc could actually amount to a very small dose your actually getting . possibly even only 1 mg or less . like wise , when all things considered it could take three bowls of ten percent thc to get that 3 mg or less dose of thc which would seem from the amount of vaping , not what i would consider micro vaping to and probably most would be pretty high lol

thinking about it this way suddenly micro dosing dosnt necessarily mean micro vaping ?

does this make sense ? did i just have a brain fart or moment of clarity ? lol

I'm pretty sure one average sized hit is usually more than a true "micro" dose. People who don't vaporize often can get stoned on one hit.

your example involves thc %.... add all the other terpenes and constituent plant parts and that equals the synergistic effect of thc enhancement via the less volatile Sesquiterpenes. depending on terpene amount, all the thc effects are modulated by them

thc is anticlimactic without the terpenes

Still, I feel like in proportion, using enough herb to get a true "micro" dose of THC, would give you matching ratios of most terpenes. While terpenes are undoubtably very important, I think they are a bit overestimated on this forum.

 

[chris 71]

your example involves thc %.... add all the other terpenes and constituent plant parts and that equals the synergistic effect of thc enhancement via the less volatile Sesquiterpenes. depending on terpene amount, all the thc effects are modulated by them

thc is anticlimactic without the terpenes

totally agree .
i was just trying to wrap my head around what it would mean , and take to actually get a particular does into your body and what i figured out through thinking hard .
is that its not so simple to just say well there is x amount of milligrams in that particular sample and so that translates into the dose .
it just cant be figured out this way with vaping or smoking . in huge part because you dont get it all . taking it through the digestive system would seem to be much more accurate in this regard but still probably doesnt translate into what dose you are actually getting in your blood for many other reason .

and when i thought about it further calling the dose by mg doesnt really make sense . either and is probably the reason why when looking at impairment they look at nano grams as 1 mg = 1000000 ng lol probably enough to get a stadium full of people high anyway i guess what it boils down to is me trying to figure this out is like a dog chasing his tail lol i suppose that the dose in mg is totally different then the amount in your blood as in nano grams , ah... wait that is probably because the nano gram measurement is a measurement of a percentage in your blood ..... oh... never mind lol i aint no scientist

 

[C No Ego]

I'm pretty sure one average sized hit is usually more than a true "micro" dose. People who don't vaporize often can get stoned on one hit.

Still, I feel like in proportion, using enough herb to get a true "micro" dose of THC, would give you matching ratios of most terpenes. While terpenes are undoubtably very important, I think they are a bit overestimated on this forum.

a guy I knew would say we are all doing it wrong! take one leaf and turn it in your fingers to make a BB sized ball... smoke on that he'd say and that was it... everybody just looked at him... I figured the butane was getting him inebriated, LOL

in all seriousness, the idea of a micro dose is to start the endocannabinoid cascade process by activating the ecs with a tiny micro phyto cannabinoid dose. once receptor activation starts the regulatory mechanism is charged

totally agree .
i was just trying to wrap my head around what it would mean , and take to actually get a particular does into your body and what i figured out through thinking hard .
is that its not so simple to just say well there is x amount of milligrams in that particular sample and so that translates into the dose .
it just cant be figured out this way with vaping or smoking . in huge part because you dont get it all . taking it through the digestive system would seem to be much more accurate in this regard but still probably doesnt translate into what dose you are actually getting in your blood for many other reason .

and when i thought about it further calling the dose by mg doesnt really make sense . either and is probably the reason why when looking at impairment they look at nano grams as 1 mg = 1000000 ng lol probably enough to get a stadium full of people high anyway i guess what it boils down to is me trying to figure this out is like a dog chasing his tail lol i suppose that the dose in mg is totally different then the amount in your blood as in nano grams , ah... wait that is probably because the nano gram measurement is a measurement of a percentage in your blood ..... oh... never mind lol i aint no scientist

a trans dermal patch or topical solution with active carrier agents can deliver more accurate cannabinoid dosages...
green dragon tincture too, once formulations to reach exacting measures are achieved..
vapes can be up to 95 %efficient in cannabinoid delivery and vapes decarboxylate the acidic form of the molecule in the process activating it to make it through blood/brain barrier, intracellular etc... But, there is the slip stream even in any vape with air drawn assisted delivery... it probably accounts for 5% loss and heat involved too...

 

[Tranquility]

Measuring the dose is hard and is one of the reasons why true medical acceptance is slow coming. GW pharmaceuticals of the UK "invented" Sativex. If you read the stories of the struggle, getting a replicable dose was a big part of it. His thesis on the topic looked to all the aspects from growing, to extraction and ingestion all in the hope to get something that can be tested scientifically for medical studies.

 

[hinglemccringleberry]

There is a big difference between a truly "micro" dose, and a small dose. With a "micro" dose you probably shouldn't be getting high.

I just can't get onboard w/ this. The definition of MD is that you feel effects on far less material. If you feel nothing different at all, that's not a MD, that's a waste of time and you might as well abstain.
Those who are interested in MD'ing will be told by their body/mind, after some trial and error, and maybe a t-break, what a good MD is for them; it's their body/brain and measurable reduced consumption that will inform them of what their MD should be....not another person. I agree w/ you that if they're getting ripped from what they call a MD, that's not right, but that should be part of the trail and error process so they can eventually arrive at a true MD. But that true MD amount will differ from stoner to stoner.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I disagree. The definition of MD is that you feel effects on far less material. If you feel nothing different at all, that's not a MD, that's a waste of time and you might as well abstain.
There's also the issue of variations of state of mind in an individual which alters perception of tolerance. For example, on those rare days where I didn't get enough sleep and need a pick-me-up to stay productive, I'll vape 0.02 in the Vapcap. I don't feel "high" from it; it simply makes me able to function without feeling excruciatingly tired - giving the illusion that I'm sober and well rested (just did this last week). But there are other times when I vape 0.02 and I do feel more high, like when I'm well rested and less busy. So are we supposed to say that I'm microdosing in scenario #1 and not microdosing in scenario #2 despite it being the same amount vaped both times? No. I'm MD'ing in both of those scenarios. Those who are interested in MD'ing will be told by their body/mind, after some trial and error, what a good MD is for them; it's their body/brain and reduced consumption that will inform them of what their MD should be....not another person. I agree w/ you that if they're getting ripped from what they call a MD, that's not right, and that should be part of the trail and error process so they can eventually arrive at a true MD. But that true MD amount will differ from stoner to stoner.

That's not true. You can experience benefits from Cannabis without feeling anything. It doesn't take as much to give brain and body benefts, as it does to get a buzz.

There's a difference between "small" and "micro". Beginners don't necessarily take "micro doses" when they take a few hits and get stoned. They just take small doses.

 

[Little Bill]

That's not true. You can experience benefits from Cannabis without feeling anything. It doesn't take as much to give brain and body benefts, as it does to get a buzz.

There's a difference between "small" and "micro". Beginners don't necessarily take "micro doses" when they take a few hits and get stoned. They just take small doses.

The whole point for me is to dose just enough to get to the level of stoned that I like best.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

The whole point for me is to dose just enough to get to the level of stoned that I like best.

That's what it is for most people on here. That's just not really "micro" dosing, imo. Just small doses with a low tolerance that produce full/near-full psychoactive effects.

 

[hinglemccringleberry]

That's what it is for most people on here. That's just not really "micro" dosing, imo. Just small doses with a low tolerance that produce full/near-full psychoactive effects.

But not everyone does that. THC influence is a scale, often shown as a 1-10 scale. I dont get blown and call it a MD and just because others do doesnt negate the existence of microdosing with effects. The definition of microdosing is to feel effects on less material....not to have completely absent effects. If one wants benefits without effects, thats what CBD products are for. If you take such a tiny amount of a THC product that you feel absolutely nothing, thats not MDing, thats a waste of time and effort. Id rather stay sober. It becomes a MD when you feel a minor head change.
I get what youre saying.... if you get full effects, then you blew it and thats not a MD. But if the dose is so miniscule that you never feel a difference, not even a head change, thats not a microdose either. Thats a phantomdose.

 

[Little Bill]

But not everyone does that. THC influence is a scale, often shown as a 1-10 scale. I dont get blown and call it a MD and just because others do doesnt negate the existence of microdosing with effects. The definition of microdosing is to feel effects on less material....not to have completely absent effects. If one wants benefits without effects, thats what CBD products are for. If you take such a tiny amount of a THC product that you feel absolutely nothing, thats not MDing, thats a waste of time and effort. Id rather stay sober. It becomes a MD when you feel a minor head change.
I get what youre saying.... if you get full effects, then you blew it and thats not a MD. But if the dose is so miniscule that you never feel a difference, not even a head change, thats not a microdose either. Thats a phantomdose.

Well excuse me for playing in your sandbox @mccringleberry.

 

[howie105]

Wrong way, right way there isn't any when your the guy with the bud.

 

[hinglemccringleberry]

Well excuse me for playing in your sandbox @mccringleberry.

triggered!

 

[EverythingsHazy]

But not everyone does that. THC influence is a scale, often shown as a 1-10 scale and thus the claim youre making is overgeneralized. Youre talking as if the scale only goes from 0 to 1, and trying to redefine the already established definition of microdosing, which is to feel effects on less material....not to have completely absent effects. If one wants benefits without effects, thats what CBD products are for. If you take such a tiny amount of a THC product that you feel absolutely nothing, thats not MDing, thats a waste of time, effort, and material. It becomes a MD when you feel a minor head change.
I get what youre saying..that if the effects are intense then you blew it and thats not a MD. But if you never feel a difference, not even a head change from an ultra tiny dose, thats not a MD either. There would have to be a different name for that. Like, "negate-dose" or something.

By whom is that the established definition of "micro dosing"?

Based on what you just said you consider three hits off of 0.05g (that could be done twice for two full blown sessions, so probably closer to the actives in 0.025g) not to be a micro dose, just because it can cause super intense effects on a person with no tolerance (buzzing/tingling skin, very enhanced taste/touch sensations, 3D music effects esp with headphones, flying/falling feeling and intense time distortion with eyes closed)?

Based on your initial definition (feeling effects on less material) that would fall under the category of a micro dose for you, but then based on your other comment (if you get intense effects, you blew it), it isn't...

 

[ktmstick]

From Wikipedia

Microdosing (or micro-dosing) is a technique for studying the behaviour of drugs in humans through the administration of doses so low ("sub-therapeutic") they are unlikely to produce whole-body effects, but high enough to allow the cellular response to be studied. This is called a "Phase 0study" and is usually conducted before clinical Phase I to predict whether a drug is viable for the next phase of testing. Human Microdosing aims to reduce the resources spent on non-viable drugs and the amount of testing done on animals.

Less commonly, the term "microdosing" is also sometimes used to refer to precise dispensing of small amounts of a drug substance (e.g., a powder API) for a drug product (e.g., a capsule),[1] and when the drug substance also happens to be liquid this can potentially overlap what is termed microdispensing. For example LSD-microdosing.[2]