Lung/brain damage from bho
- Thread starter CHEI
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lepstadder
Well-Known Member
You can check the material safety data sheet MSDS and get a complete chemical ingredient list for what is in your butane
VECTOR is only butane isobutane and propane, nor mercaptans
I do have a theory tho that mercaptans may be present in certain strains, as marijuana has obviously evolved a feature to become fragrant/pungent to the human nose and certain smells are very perceivable by humans through our own evolution, things like feces and rot are toxic to us and are unbearably stinky... but thats just my rambling hypothesis
ganjapharma
Well-Known Member
glad that some have mentioned turning the "concrete" extract from primary butane extractions into an absolute, by dissolving in ethanol, winterizing, and filtering. (sour deez wow thats nice looking stuff)
i wanted to add that some of us spray bho directly into a shallow dish of alcohol as a method of ensuring a complete purge. rather than forming sticky bubbles of tane, bho sprayed into alcohol remains in solution. the shimmering bath roils, then calms to glasslike stillness once every trace of butane has left the warm alcohol. personally, i collect the alcohol from multiple runs, winterize for 72 hours, filter, then evaporate for a super clean , no waxes, absolute. however those that wish to can use the alcohol as a purgative and simply evaporate it off for some very well purged BHO.
i wanted to add that some of us spray bho directly into a shallow dish of alcohol as a method of ensuring a complete purge. rather than forming sticky bubbles of tane, bho sprayed into alcohol remains in solution. the shimmering bath roils, then calms to glasslike stillness once every trace of butane has left the warm alcohol. personally, i collect the alcohol from multiple runs, winterize for 72 hours, filter, then evaporate for a super clean , no waxes, absolute. however those that wish to can use the alcohol as a purgative and simply evaporate it off for some very well purged BHO.
OO
Technical Skeptical
weasel
New Member
You, my friend, are incorrect. The byproducts of butane's combustion are CO2 and H20.
Evaporation is simply a phase change.
I want some of what you're vaping!!
DabComa
Stuck in Dab Coma
personally I have used, and probably will use again if the situation arises, 5x and 7X brand butane's. I dont feel like it gives me a headache or leaves any taste or residue in my oil, nor do my friends. As another poster stated, I have also evap tested it on mirror dishes with no obvious residue. I dont mind using it and the price is def. right at times ( 20$ a case ) 
Denver912
Active Member
There is people working on some aspects of this thread in regards to the canned butane runs. A group called mystery oil on Facebook and skunkpharm along with others have collected "mystery oil" from cans of different brands of butane.
Also wax is hash. It's the same shit you was smoking just more of it. The butane is a solvent. Maybe ppl are reacting to residual stuff but I think anxiety comes into play with the majority of complaints. It is a bowl of dank in an instant. Certain strains of hash or types of hash will have me wondering wtf is going on in my chest as well. Then I remember it's just hash. It's supposed to do that man. It's bomb hash. Chest seizures son.
I've hit wax so good it felt like a nitrous whippet damn near. Full body load moments after with lots of chest lock. Shits wonderful if you think about it.
Good wax beats shatter IMO if dabbing.
Also wax is hash. It's the same shit you was smoking just more of it. The butane is a solvent. Maybe ppl are reacting to residual stuff but I think anxiety comes into play with the majority of complaints. It is a bowl of dank in an instant. Certain strains of hash or types of hash will have me wondering wtf is going on in my chest as well. Then I remember it's just hash. It's supposed to do that man. It's bomb hash. Chest seizures son.
I've hit wax so good it felt like a nitrous whippet damn near. Full body load moments after with lots of chest lock. Shits wonderful if you think about it.
Good wax beats shatter IMO if dabbing.
Oscar_Milde
Forum Crawler
Shatter generally trumps wax in the potency department, wax comes out on top for taste.
If I understand correctly, this is because terpenes are waxy and oily, and removing them increases the cannabinoid content.
Unfortunately some of the best highs come from the synergistic effects of terpenes and cannabinoids, so removing them to increase thc percentage might be counterproductive (depending on what you intend to use the extract for).
I think terpenes are also largely responsible for the vast differences in harshness of the smoke/vapour from different strains, some seem to be more of a respiratory irritant than others.
I find waxes to give me coughing fits akin to what the previous post outlined, while properly purged absolutes are smoother.
Which all supports my theory...
On a side note, for those who seem un phased by residual butane, there is reseach that suggests it may be neurotoxic when combusted, not sure about vaporization though?
If I understand correctly, this is because terpenes are waxy and oily, and removing them increases the cannabinoid content.
Unfortunately some of the best highs come from the synergistic effects of terpenes and cannabinoids, so removing them to increase thc percentage might be counterproductive (depending on what you intend to use the extract for).
I think terpenes are also largely responsible for the vast differences in harshness of the smoke/vapour from different strains, some seem to be more of a respiratory irritant than others.
I find waxes to give me coughing fits akin to what the previous post outlined, while properly purged absolutes are smoother.
Which all supports my theory...
On a side note, for those who seem un phased by residual butane, there is reseach that suggests it may be neurotoxic when combusted, not sure about vaporization though?
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deadheadbill
I can see clearly now the smoke is gone...
LSV is under 200$ delivered and is a great bang for your buck. If you are looking for pure taste, the Vapo 2 can't be beat for under 100$ delivered and once you master it, it can hit almost as well as the LSV.
thesoloman
Well-Known Member
@Oscar_Milde Can you please share this research with us?
Snake Plissken
Transcendentalist
1st - If your tane smells like rotten eggs, etc - you are using the wrong stuff. These smells are additives used in camping tane to detect leaks. I have seen good success w/ most all 5x, 7x products. The only times I have seen bad taste is w/ unfiltered or improperly purged tane.
2nd - From sclabs: "Terpenes modulate and modify the effects of THC, CBD and the other cannabinoids and in fact, have medicinal values of their own that contribute to the overall experience of a strain, hence entourage effect."
Just another good argument, imo, against overprocessed concentrates like shatter. I am sure that pure, flavorless vitamins and essentials squeezed out of a tube spaceman style might be better for you than the foods we eat, but I would rather blow my brains out than live in such a bland world.
3rd - what is this misguided impression that dispensaries automatically = quality? Where do people think the disp's get their meds? In most cases, from those of us who have supplied it all along. Some people are more interested in the value of the name/story of the item than the value of the item itself. How many of these places even test for paclobuzatrol, daminizode or other cancer causing PGR's which are found in many flower finishers/boosters/hardeners? All of these can end up in your concentrates if used during plant growth.
4th - I can whip many bho's into wax or budder. Does that change in consistency alter the effect? I can purge a little longer/hotter and make sap - freezing that sap will turn it into a mostly unstable shatter, finishing on parchment naturally will make honeycomb - Still the same as bho, minus as much flavor and potential potency. A given texture does not automatically = vac purged.
You will alleviate many of these risks by taking marinol instead of consuming cannabis, but no thanks. I am not in any way trying to convince anyone away from vac purged shatters, winterized products, pure gold type substances, etc. I am just saying that these are not acceptable alternatives for some of us who value taste and potency. Potency being objective, as opposed to personal tolerance (subjective). I say this as someone who does not ever load below .3 and refuses to be part of conversations which discuss cannabis on the hundredths scale (.xx) as if it is a powder.
I would also respectfully disagree w/ the assertion that removing terps increases cannabinoids - and not just because of the law of conservation and mass. That flower in your hand, once harvested, has a set amount of cannabinoids and the most you can do at this point is turn non-psychoactive cannabinoids into psychoactive cannabinoids by proper curing (minimal difference at best).
2nd - From sclabs: "Terpenes modulate and modify the effects of THC, CBD and the other cannabinoids and in fact, have medicinal values of their own that contribute to the overall experience of a strain, hence entourage effect."
Just another good argument, imo, against overprocessed concentrates like shatter. I am sure that pure, flavorless vitamins and essentials squeezed out of a tube spaceman style might be better for you than the foods we eat, but I would rather blow my brains out than live in such a bland world.
3rd - what is this misguided impression that dispensaries automatically = quality? Where do people think the disp's get their meds? In most cases, from those of us who have supplied it all along. Some people are more interested in the value of the name/story of the item than the value of the item itself. How many of these places even test for paclobuzatrol, daminizode or other cancer causing PGR's which are found in many flower finishers/boosters/hardeners? All of these can end up in your concentrates if used during plant growth.
4th - I can whip many bho's into wax or budder. Does that change in consistency alter the effect? I can purge a little longer/hotter and make sap - freezing that sap will turn it into a mostly unstable shatter, finishing on parchment naturally will make honeycomb - Still the same as bho, minus as much flavor and potential potency. A given texture does not automatically = vac purged.
You will alleviate many of these risks by taking marinol instead of consuming cannabis, but no thanks. I am not in any way trying to convince anyone away from vac purged shatters, winterized products, pure gold type substances, etc. I am just saying that these are not acceptable alternatives for some of us who value taste and potency. Potency being objective, as opposed to personal tolerance (subjective). I say this as someone who does not ever load below .3 and refuses to be part of conversations which discuss cannabis on the hundredths scale (.xx) as if it is a powder.
I would also respectfully disagree w/ the assertion that removing terps increases cannabinoids - and not just because of the law of conservation and mass. That flower in your hand, once harvested, has a set amount of cannabinoids and the most you can do at this point is turn non-psychoactive cannabinoids into psychoactive cannabinoids by proper curing (minimal difference at best).
Denver912
Active Member
Shatter isn't always stronger than wax. Check growing kitchens website. Their wax is stronger and has terpenes which enhances the high. Not saying it's this way all the time or visa versa. But after smoking shatter people here combine with a full spectrum extract, flowers, or edible to give back the feeling of smoking/terpenes. I do it every day.
I will say in this area that is where shatter is lacking and waxes/true full melt ice hash pull out ahead in the complexity of the high. One could also eat a mango/lemon balm or other stuff an hour prior to consumption to add more depth to the high only using shatters/absolutes.
Can shatter be made to be damn near crazy pure insane stuff through extra steps. But if you whipping top grade material the wax will be up there with other peoples shatters/absolutes or higher.
So don't see shatter and think fuck yeah. Cause I used to do that till I had some shatter that sucked for shatter quite a few times. And I've had wax that was insane. Growing kitchens flower power wax will knock most ppls shit out of the water.
I will say in this area that is where shatter is lacking and waxes/true full melt ice hash pull out ahead in the complexity of the high. One could also eat a mango/lemon balm or other stuff an hour prior to consumption to add more depth to the high only using shatters/absolutes.
Can shatter be made to be damn near crazy pure insane stuff through extra steps. But if you whipping top grade material the wax will be up there with other peoples shatters/absolutes or higher.
So don't see shatter and think fuck yeah. Cause I used to do that till I had some shatter that sucked for shatter quite a few times. And I've had wax that was insane. Growing kitchens flower power wax will knock most ppls shit out of the water.
Denver912
Active Member
I'll also add refined oils have their place in clear candies, e cigs, or even people seeking a calmer more tame high. So it does have a place but I think as I myself was, are misguided to the fact that shatter makes oil better or even adds to the strength but it kinda takes away from it in comparison to a non refined hash IMO.
Oscar_Milde
Forum Crawler
Read it in a thread over at ICmag, will see if I can find it...
I'm not talking about samples growing in potency post harvest, don't worry
If a given extract contains 50% cannabinoids and 25% terpenes by weight, for example, removing the 25% terpenes would increase the cannabinoid content to 66.6%, would it not? (I am terrible at maths, so am open to the possibility that I'm completely wrong)
I'm not talking about samples growing in potency post harvest, don't worry
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deadheadbill
I can see clearly now the smoke is gone...
I feel stupid in conversations like this. I have made both BHO and Qwiso many times and still do not understand what makes one better than the other.
I just ran a small sstb of BHO this morning yet, I always come back to qwiso as it is as simple as freeze, soak, evap.
What are you guys using as your baseline to determine which is "better"? Is it worth it to aquire 5 or 7x online, have to blast outside and still have to vac purge? Is BHO better or QWISO? It seems a simple question, yet I cannot wrap my head around it.
I just ran a small sstb of BHO this morning yet, I always come back to qwiso as it is as simple as freeze, soak, evap.
What are you guys using as your baseline to determine which is "better"? Is it worth it to aquire 5 or 7x online, have to blast outside and still have to vac purge? Is BHO better or QWISO? It seems a simple question, yet I cannot wrap my head around it.
Snake Plissken
Transcendentalist
ba
Lots of differing opinions. I won't tell anyone there are no risks w/ any method. I have never had an alcohol based product (iso or everclear) that didn't taste 'off' to me so I avoid them. I've tried co2 extractions a couple of times, and it seemed almost flavorless. I've tried many vac purges and they just don't compete w/the flavor/potency of bho - I will not argue that they are not healthier. I've also tried 6-12 water/ice extractions and it was like mj light. Obvious generalizations, and not true of every cook.
In theory, I believe butane (w/o funky additives) to provide a safer end product (definitely not the process) because it is a supercritical gas - meaning it boils off at room temp. W/ proper heating methods it will evaporate easily. Alcohol needs time to fully dissipate (disclaimer: not liking the end products, I am less familiar w/ this extraction process). If done properly, I wouldn't think that there is enough trace material left to cause probs w/ either method.
Noone has really done long term research on the effects of smoking/vaping substances other than tobacco over long periods of time. I would almost consider vaping questionable substances more dangerous as living organisms more readily absorb/uptake smaller particles (why true aeroponics is so effective). I am a lot more worried about the leftover nutes people use on their flowers in the growing process than I am about any minor traces of butane.
Just like growing, there can be a lot of variables when making concentrates. Some strains automatically wax up - these are usually good potency wise. The best batches I have made turn a peanut butter/seafoam consistency before going almost totally clear again after a few more minutes of heating.
Not sure if the 'Which is better" refers to iso vs butane, refinement level of butane or quality of end product - so I attempted to answer all. While I think it is always worth getting refined butane (5x, 7x), I've never really noticed much difference in end results from using 4x -10x. I base end product quality on my tolerance (which is pretty high) and flavor. I use 2-4 oz's/month of flowers not including concentrates.
I don't winterize or vac purge. If health concerns dictate otherwise, it would make sense for someone to do both. Tofu is healthier than ribeye, but it probably won't be the ribeye that gets me. I realize that people are very passionate about this issue and these are just my personal preferences. I am not advocating that anyone risk their health on my opinion.
dhbill - if you are equally as pleased w/ your results whether making qwiso or bho, there isn't any sense in performing a more dangerous and expensive extraction using tane.
edit: Oscar - if you had 3 apples and 2 bananas in one hand, and took away 2 bananas - would you have 5 apples in that hand? Not saying you didn't see that somewhere, but it doesn't make sense to me. The 'by weight' is throwing my comprehension off a little, but let's say an oz had 2 grams of thc and 1 gram of terps, taking away the terps shouldn't affect the weight of the thc. You would now have a 27 gram bag w/ 2 grams of thc and no terps, right? Maybe I'm missing something? it wouldn't be a 1st.
Lots of differing opinions. I won't tell anyone there are no risks w/ any method. I have never had an alcohol based product (iso or everclear) that didn't taste 'off' to me so I avoid them. I've tried co2 extractions a couple of times, and it seemed almost flavorless. I've tried many vac purges and they just don't compete w/the flavor/potency of bho - I will not argue that they are not healthier. I've also tried 6-12 water/ice extractions and it was like mj light. Obvious generalizations, and not true of every cook.
In theory, I believe butane (w/o funky additives) to provide a safer end product (definitely not the process) because it is a supercritical gas - meaning it boils off at room temp. W/ proper heating methods it will evaporate easily. Alcohol needs time to fully dissipate (disclaimer: not liking the end products, I am less familiar w/ this extraction process). If done properly, I wouldn't think that there is enough trace material left to cause probs w/ either method.
Noone has really done long term research on the effects of smoking/vaping substances other than tobacco over long periods of time. I would almost consider vaping questionable substances more dangerous as living organisms more readily absorb/uptake smaller particles (why true aeroponics is so effective). I am a lot more worried about the leftover nutes people use on their flowers in the growing process than I am about any minor traces of butane.
Just like growing, there can be a lot of variables when making concentrates. Some strains automatically wax up - these are usually good potency wise. The best batches I have made turn a peanut butter/seafoam consistency before going almost totally clear again after a few more minutes of heating.
Not sure if the 'Which is better" refers to iso vs butane, refinement level of butane or quality of end product - so I attempted to answer all. While I think it is always worth getting refined butane (5x, 7x), I've never really noticed much difference in end results from using 4x -10x. I base end product quality on my tolerance (which is pretty high) and flavor. I use 2-4 oz's/month of flowers not including concentrates.
I don't winterize or vac purge. If health concerns dictate otherwise, it would make sense for someone to do both. Tofu is healthier than ribeye, but it probably won't be the ribeye that gets me. I realize that people are very passionate about this issue and these are just my personal preferences. I am not advocating that anyone risk their health on my opinion.
dhbill - if you are equally as pleased w/ your results whether making qwiso or bho, there isn't any sense in performing a more dangerous and expensive extraction using tane.
edit: Oscar - if you had 3 apples and 2 bananas in one hand, and took away 2 bananas - would you have 5 apples in that hand? Not saying you didn't see that somewhere, but it doesn't make sense to me. The 'by weight' is throwing my comprehension off a little, but let's say an oz had 2 grams of thc and 1 gram of terps, taking away the terps shouldn't affect the weight of the thc. You would now have a 27 gram bag w/ 2 grams of thc and no terps, right? Maybe I'm missing something? it wouldn't be a 1st.
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Oscar_Milde
Forum Crawler
Correct, does not change the weight of the THC, but the fact that terpenes have mass means removing them will affect the weight of the total sample. If the amount of cannabinoids remains the same, but the sample size decreases, this will push the percentage up?
If you have 3 apples and 2 bananas in one hand, and you take away the banana's, you still have the same number of apples, but the percentage of apples you are holding increases to 100, to refine your comparison a little more
If you have 3 apples and 2 bananas in one hand, and you take away the banana's, you still have the same number of apples, but the percentage of apples you are holding increases to 100, to refine your comparison a little more
Snake Plissken
Transcendentalist
ok. that kinda makes sense. Now you would have 2g of thc per 27g sample instead of 2g thc per 28 g sample. When processing these flowers, you are still only extracting 2g either way though. I realize that I subbed thc for cannabinoids as a unit, easier to type if nothing else.
Oscar_Milde
Forum Crawler
Yeah I found myself doing the same hahaha
PPN
Volute of Vapor
One of my last batch was made from pollen, the 2 first runs was nice (pinus taste...) but I wanted to do another one run because I thought it was more difficult to extract all the goodies from pollen, I got a little amount of darker oil (less dark than my reclaim) which smell really, really bad....??!!?
What is it? this is the "mystery oil"?
the lesson I got from this is never run too little amount, abv or already run buds and look for the better butane that you can get (for this I used sarome, it's like colibri)
My mystery oil is in the trash now, i never want to dab that, but I think that this is in my oils but more diluted that's why I don't smell it but I smoke it too....
I'm thinking to switch to water extraction, it seem healthier to me, if somebody know a good method....
What is it? this is the "mystery oil"?
the lesson I got from this is never run too little amount, abv or already run buds and look for the better butane that you can get (for this I used sarome, it's like colibri)
My mystery oil is in the trash now, i never want to dab that, but I think that this is in my oils but more diluted that's why I don't smell it but I smoke it too....
I'm thinking to switch to water extraction, it seem healthier to me, if somebody know a good method....
Vapodudule
Well-Known Member
bubble bags and ice!
Denver912
Active Member
It took like 75 cans of Newport butane to get a testable amount for the lab. The thread is on facebbok and on skunkpharm by different extract artist.
Also there is ice and bags method, dry ice and bag method, and for more of in depth control is nikki ts method to make true full melt solvent less(this one you have to prep more and be way more detailed down to the temp of the water). Nikki ts method is covered in high times online with each step.
With that I don't think that the last pull was mystery oil. Just pulled more nasties over. Prolly not worth even smoking as you thought.
Do not let my mention of mystery oil scare you away from tane. I'd read that thread cause I still smoke wax after reading.
On the other hand solvent less full melt is awesome. But so is wax. I vote you make a lil but of both and mix then smoke that shit.
Also there is ice and bags method, dry ice and bag method, and for more of in depth control is nikki ts method to make true full melt solvent less(this one you have to prep more and be way more detailed down to the temp of the water). Nikki ts method is covered in high times online with each step.
With that I don't think that the last pull was mystery oil. Just pulled more nasties over. Prolly not worth even smoking as you thought.
Do not let my mention of mystery oil scare you away from tane. I'd read that thread cause I still smoke wax after reading.
On the other hand solvent less full melt is awesome. But so is wax. I vote you make a lil but of both and mix then smoke that shit.
2clicker
Observer
my favorite is an ethanol extraction. IMO it produces the best flavor and potency.
SkunkPharm-
"A cured material QWET absolute is one of the most aromatic and tasty of the extraction methods and consistently gets high raves from the volunteer test panels, as well as the patients and students. Both from an efficacy, as well as a flavor standpoint."
its safer, easier, and when done right it produces some amazing oil.
SkunkPharm-
"A cured material QWET absolute is one of the most aromatic and tasty of the extraction methods and consistently gets high raves from the volunteer test panels, as well as the patients and students. Both from an efficacy, as well as a flavor standpoint."
its safer, easier, and when done right it produces some amazing oil.