Interesting News, Articles & Stuff

[Bazinga]

Of course not I am not antisemitic. But I do think that Israel is doing a violent colonisation war on Palestine and other territories.

Do you really think this started in October 2023 ?
You should learn about the intifada. The first started in 1987 as non violent protests against Israel that was illegally occupying Palestinians territories. Almost 40 years ago. Don't you think that after that long of a violent occupation people start to get angry ?

Do you think Israel expanding its territory at the detriment of Palestinians is its right to exist ?
You're comparing hamas to the nazi German y and I think your pretty wrong here.
If you really want to make analogies with WWII then Israel is acting pretty much like the third reich did in the eastern front. Israel consider Palestine and other territories as their Lebensraum. (Go learn about it if you don't know what I'm talking). The third reich used to think and act in the east front in the exact same way Israel is acting in Palestine and occupied territories (although faster for the nazis, I admit).
Did you know the French resistance and communists partisans were described as terrorists by the nazi propaganda ? The nazis used the exact same rethoric Israel is using against hamas. Do you think the resistance should have surrended So the nazis would have stoped their massacres ?

There's no fucking war in Gaza. The casualties are about 20:1 (Palestinians / Israelis). The Palestinians are not fighting a war, they're trying to survive under an oppressive and violent regime since the sixties.

I don't even know why I'm trying to teach you history. I just wish you'll live long enough to meet the truth.

Thank you for the cogent post and wishing me a long life !! Actually, I'm a WW2 history buff having read many many books on the topic. I have never heard of a war where there were equal casualties under some sort of fairness doctrine. During WW2 more enemy died compared to the allies. Your argument about the disaportionment of casualties in war is silly and naive.

Don't give up up trying to teach me history. I am student of history and open to continual learning. I would humbly suggest that you read more detailed books about the region. Also neutral published articles are a good read - if you can find any actual neutral ones.

Lastly, I'll remind you again that there hasn't been a single Jew in Gaza since the year 2000 - 25 years ago. Actually one more lastly. When you find some time read about 1948 and who attacked who. And it didn't stop there. The surrounding countries attempted and failed to destroy Israel on more than one occasion.

At the end of the day I think we all wish this war and resulting suffering to end.

 

[florduh]

Don't give up up trying to teach me history. I am student of history and open to continual learning.

These books by Avi Shlaim

The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World|Paperback

“Fascinating. . . . Shlaim presents compelling evidence for a revaluation of traditional Israeli history.”—New York Times Book Review For this newly expanded edition, Avi Shlaim has added four chapters and an epilogue that address the prime ministerships...

www.barnesandnoble.com

Three Worlds | Oneworld

In July 1950, Avi Shlaim, only five, and his family were forced into exile, fleeing from their beloved Iraq into the new state of Israel. Now the rump of a once flourishing community of over 150,000, dating back 2,600 years, has dwindled to single figures. For many, this tells the story of the...

oneworld-publications.com

This book by Ilan Pappé

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

Since the Holocaust, it has been almost impossible to h…

www.goodreads.com

This book by Rashid Khalidi

The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917-2017|Paperback

A landmark history of one hundred years of war waged against the Palestinians from the foremost US historian of the Middle East, told through pivotal events and family historyIn 1899, Yusuf Diya al-Khalidi, mayor of Jerusalem, alarmed by the Zionist call to create a Jewish national...

www.barnesandnoble.com

There you go. Two Israeli historians and one Palestinian-American historian.

If you want something much shorter and more recent (all but one of those books was written pre-10/7), here you go. It sounds like you and this guy agree on the basics re: Israel. Nevertheless...



This is the first time I've posted Friedman outside of the Fake News thread. I disagree with him on almost everything. But he's 100% correct here.

 

[Bazinga]

Thanks for the book referrals. I must admit I have not read either of those. I will however read them. I'm retired and reading is a passion.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

Also neutral published articles are a good read - if you can find any actual neutral ones.

Europe is still backing and doing military business with israel so it's not a neutral organisation. Yet it recognize the crimes agains humanity Israel is perpetrating in Gaza.

Full report on the situation in the Middle East.

skoog24.pdf

drive.google.com

A summary :

Leak of EU's full 2024 Gaza report piles pressure on Israel

The leak of an internal EU paper from 2024 spelling out Israel's "war crimes" in Gaza will make it harder to claim Tel Aviv merits keeping free trade perks.

euobserver.com

On an other note...
I still can't get over some people can justify a genocide over Israel "right to exist". Because that means Palestinians don't have the right to exist.

 

[chillAtGVC]

Europe is still backing and doing military business with israel so it's not a neutral organisation. Yet it recognize the crimes agains humanity Israel is perpetrating in Gaza.

Do you recognize the crimes against humanity that Hamas, Hezbollah, et al are perpetrating?

 

[Pib]

The surrounding countries attempted and failed to destroy Israel on more than one occasion.

Historically, this is not quite so simple either, the state of Israel did not exist in this form, it was created and the land was stolen, no wonder Israel is the bogeyman there. The region was destabilized by the re-creation of the state of Israel. And honestly, it's stupid as the only non-Muslim state there, as sorry as I am, the area has developed in the time without Jews. It would be like a Muslim state in the middle of America. I don't want to speak against Jews or Muslims, but a region of the world develops over centuries, so it's stupid if someone is simply put into it.

 

[Knewt]

Do you recognize the crimes against humanity that Hamas, Hezbollah, et al are perpetrating?

Like slaughtering starving civilians trying to get food that is supposedly being given out?

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

Do you recognize the crimes against humanity that Hamas, Hezbollah, et al are perpetrating?

Why the fuck wouldn't I recognize that they're doing terrorism ?! You ask this question like if I was siding with the terrorists. But for god's sake how does that compares to the slaughter of TEN OF THOUSANDS of civilians in Gaza ?!
Of course Hamas are terrorist, now do you think this is a valid reason for committing genocide on Gaza ?
Are you trying to make me look like I'm encouraging terror against Israel ?!
But how can recognizing the crimes of these terrorists groups be more important to your eyes than a fucking GENOCIDE !
I'm loosing patience here. I'm pretty certain that Muslim lives doesn't matter as much as Jewish lives to you. That is plain racism.

the area has developed in the time without Jews

There always has been Jews in the Middle East, especially in Jerusalem. But they coexisted in peace until israel started its violent colonialism.

 

[Bazinga]

Europe is still backing and doing military business with israel so it's not a neutral organisation. Yet it recognize the crimes agains humanity Israel is perpetrating in Gaza.

Full report on the situation in the Middle East.

skoog24.pdf

drive.google.com

A summary :

Leak of EU's full 2024 Gaza report piles pressure on Israel

The leak of an internal EU paper from 2024 spelling out Israel's "war crimes" in Gaza will make it harder to claim Tel Aviv merits keeping free trade perks.

euobserver.com

On an other note...
I still can't get over some people can justify a genocide over Israel "right to exist". Because that means Palestinians don't have the right to exist.

They were existing since 2005. They were provided with billions of dollars of aid that was used by Hamas to acquire weapons and build terror tunnels. Thousands upon thousands of missiles fired into Israel. I feel terribly bad about the loss of life of innocent Palestinians (or any innocent folks). The Palestinians (not all of course) want Israel gone (from the river to the sea) not going to happen. I wish I knew how peace can be obtrained without further loss of life. It is my understanding that the Palestinian/Hamas Charter calls for the destruction of Israel. This has been their goal since 1948. I wonder if their charter is available on line and in English. I'll do a search.

Why has Israel been attacked since it's inception? Except for 1 preemptive strike I can't recall Israel attacking any country. I wish for a 2 state peaceful solution. Us it even possible? Let's hope.

Apparently you object to European countries aiding Israel. Understood. Is it okay, in your opinion, for terror supporting countries as Iran and others to support Hamas with weapons and such?
e

Historically, this is not quite so simple either, the state of Israel did not exist in this form, it was created and the land was stolen, no wonder Israel is the bogeyman there. The region was destabilized by the re-creation of the state of Israel. And honestly, it's stupid as the only non-Muslim state there, as sorry as I am, the area has developed in the time without Jews. It would be like a Muslim state in the middle of America. I don't want to speak against Jews or Muslims, but a region of the world develops over centuries, so it's stupid if someone is simply put into it.

Some would say that Israel existed first and Arabs stole their land. I don't know, I wasn't there. There is no doubt the Jews needed a home where they could live in peace. And they have. Egypt and others have been at peace for many years. Do you have a problem with a 2 state solution? It's better than what is currently transpiring.

 

[bellona0544]

They were existing since 2005. They were provided with billions of dollars of aid that was used by Hamas to acquire weapons and build terror tunnels. Thousands upon thousands of missiles fired into Israel. I feel terribly bad about the loss of life of innocent Palestinians (or any innocent folks). The Palestinians (not all of course) want Israel gone (from the river to the sea) not going to happen. I wish I knew how peace can be obtrained without further loss of life. It is my understanding that the Palestinian/Hamas Charter calls for the destruction of Israel. This has been their goal since 1948. I wonder if their charter is available on line and in English. I'll do a search.

Why has Israel been attacked since it's inception? Except for 1 preemptive strike I can't recall Israel attacking any country. I wish for a 2 state peaceful solution. Us it even possible? Let's hope.

Apparently you object to European countries aiding Israel. Understood. Is it okay, in your opinion, for terror supporting countries as Iran and others to support Hamas with weapons and such?
e

"I came and removed all these pesky natives from this place! Why do they keep attacking my ethnostate that was founded religious absolutism and currently controls all of the food, water, and healthcare entering this small portion we left the natives?"

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

Apparently you object to European countries aiding Israel. Understood. Is it okay, in your opinion, for terror supporting countries as Iran and others to support Hamas with weapons and such?

Why the fuck would I support terrorism ?!?

It's the exact same question @chillAtGVC asked and all the mainstream media : "but do you condemn hamas" ?
Of course I am !
In the other hand I haven't seen any of you condemning Israel for committing GENOCIDE.

Edit : You know what ?
Keep supporting Israel in their ethnic cleansing, violent colonialism and genocide on Palestinians. To me you're a collaborator.

Edit : you didn't even read the report. It's not about Europeans helping Israel it's about what's happening in Gaza. A GENOCIDE. But apparently you don't want to see it.

 

[florduh]

I wish I knew how peace can be obtrained without further loss of life.

Yeah that's the problem with apartheid states and fascist ethnostates. They require incredible violence to maintain.

@Bazinga Don't you think Israel is a complete fucking failure, post October 7th? It was supposed to be the "only safe place for Jews on Earth". Meanwhile Miami and Brooklyn are about a million times safer. No bomb shelters needed in Sherman Oaks!

Like slaughtering starving civilians trying to get food that is supposedly being given out?

Funny enough, Israel hired ISIS to kill Palestinians in Gaza at aid sites

Who are the ’ISIS-linked’ Gaza militia backed by Israel?

A new force challenging Hamas has arisen in southern Gaza composed of a local Bedouin tribe, The New Arab looks into its links with Israel and ISIS.

www.newarab.com

Israel and ISIS are old buddies.

Israel forgives Daesh for attack following ‘apology’ – Middle East Monitor

<br /> <b>Warning</b>: Undefined variable $sm_desc in <b>/www/wwwroot/middleeastmonitor.com/wp-content/themes/memouk/header.php</b> on line <b>159</b><br /> ...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

 

[Bazinga]

Like slaughtering starving civilians trying to get food that is supposedly being given out?

So Israel is feeding Gazans and slaughtering them at the same time? Who started this latest war? Who slaughtered innocent children etc in horrific manners? That was war. And yet there are those who blame Israel. By the way, I am not convinced that Israel's response has not been heavy handed. I will be happy when Hamas is gone.

 

[florduh]

I will be happy when Hamas is gone.

 

[Radwin Bodnic]

. I will be happy when Hamas is Palestinians are gone.

Fixed that for you.

 

[bellona0544]

My mistake for engaging. Just as Sartre said, never argue with the anti-semite.

So far, I've seen everyone accused of antisemitism of siding with Hamas and every single one has denounced Hamas resoundingly because we all are capable of holding more than one thought in our heads at a time and recognize that two things can both be bad. We also recognize that a 20:1 ratio is not at all a war, and there have been no recent examples of ANY conflicts called a war in which casualties looked like that or have had the number of women and children killed. Israel's killed more journalists in this genocide than any armed conflict in recent history, and that was at the beginning of the war. They've killed almost three journalists a week since their response to Hamas's terror attack. That is more than the global average from 2016-2020. We understand that the IDF has now killed hundreds if not thousands waiting in line for aid. We understand that one harm does not entitle anyone to go commit far, far greater harm to way more people.

Nuance. Those who see "Good" and "Bad" guys everywhere they go are incapable of it, because if they acknowledged that morality and relating to humans was complex, they would recognize that they don't always do very good things.

 

[florduh]

This is from an absolute mensch who died 3 years before 10/7.

It's never been a complicated issue. Racism is the only reason anyone ever says it is.

 

[Bazinga]

Why the fuck would I support terrorism ?!?

It's the exact same question @chillAtGVC asked and all the mainstream media : "but do you condemn hamas" ?
Of course I am !
In the other hand I haven't seen any of you condemning Israel for committing GENOCIDE.

Edit : You know what ?
Keep supporting Israel in their ethnic cleansing, violent colonialism and genocide on Palestinians. To me you're a collaborator.

Edit : you didn't even read the report. It's not about Europeans helping Israel it's about what's happening in Gaza. A GENOCIDE. But apparently you don't want to see it.

I don't think for a moment that you support Hamas. You've made that abundantly clear. And no, I am not the collaborator you accuse me of. I just want peace.
Do you consider the bombing and mass killing of the Japanese civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and mass murder of civilians during the fire bombing of Dresden to be genocide? The deaths in Gaza pale in comparison to the carnage of these actions. I don't want any peaceful citizens of Gaza to be harmed. Hamas needs to surrender and both countries need to achieve peace. Unfortunately I'm not convinced this will happen.

This is from an absolute mensch who died 3 years before 10/7.

It's never been a complicated issue. Racism is the only reason anyone ever says it is.

Tha is for posting this interview. He appears to be somewhat young. Did he die due to natural causes

 

[florduh]

Tha is for posting this interview. He appears to be somewhat young. Did he die due to natural causes

He died of a brain aneurysm right before COVID. And yeah he was in his late 30's. He was the co-host of The Majority Report (hosted by another mensch, Sam Seder).

Only time I cried when someone I didn't personally know died. He was absolutely headed to great things. His philosophy when discussing political or social issues was, "Be ruthless when criticizing systems, but be kind with people"

I still recommend the Majority Report for anyone who wants to consume news that isn't propaganda from billionaires. But Michael's loss is still felt to this day.

What Michael Brooks Meant to Me

Michael Brooks was one of the funniest, most intellectually curious human beings I’ve ever known. He was also deeply committed to creating a better world.

jacobin.com

 

[bellona0544]

This is from an absolute mensch who died 3 years before 10/7.

It's never been a complicated issue. Racism is the only reason anyone ever says it is.

Mismatched power dynamics mean one party can engage entirely in bad faith all while claiming that the party they constantly antagonize isn't willing to negotiate. Gazans want a ceasefire. They want control of their own waterways, and electricity, and food production. Israel's government and the majority of Israelis claim they want a ceasefire. They won't give up control of any of those things.

Why would Hamas stop fighting? Their alternative is to die young with no chance of receiving adequate care. Their alternative is to go back to a status quo in which a nuclear-armed nation with no established nuclear policy controls everything that comes into their country, and controls who can leave, and regularly brutalizes and kills children. And the world does nothing. There is no one coming to save them.

If someone came to your town and put a fence around it, you might be upset. If they started patrolling that fence with guns and didn't let anyone pass unless approved, you'd be pissed. If they shut off your water and electricity regularly to punish you for entering a church that your parents and their parents and their parents all prayed in, then what? If they shot a child in front of you and pointed guns at everyone who came to help the child, what would you do? If they said that you weren't allowed to walk across town and built a fence with barbed wire so everyone was cut in half? If they stoned you while you walked, and kicked you out of your home, and said you couldn't get mail from your loved ones, then what?

Terrorism is wrong. Killing civilians is never OK. And when you take away all options for peaceful revolution, violence becomes inevitable. Never excused, but understood. If Hamas lays down arms, they go back to the slow cultural death they've experienced for decades and that's if Israel decides to hold to a ceasefire, which is not a guarantee as they unilaterally broke one before. Why does Israel get to break ceasefires and get given infinite chances? Unless the world acts and holds Israel's leaders accountable and works to deprogram the people, I can't imagine a world in which I would lay down arms in that place. There are other deaths than physical.

 

[Cheebsy]

If anyone believes that Israel wants peace, you should watch the Louis theroux documentary called "the settlers" that @florduh posted about a couple of months ago. It's a fantastic documentary that shows that there is a large proportion of Israeli's that want Palestine destroyed, so much so that they can't even bring themselves to use the term Palestinians because that term gives them identity. Sounds very familiar to that hamas doctrine that was mentioned earlier...

I am not in any way racist against anyone. I've never understood the hate that Jews have received over the years, until recently. What they've done in Gaza is in no way proportionate to the terribly tragic events that occurred on the 7th Oct. I'm still not an antisemite, but I understand why they exist! The illegal settlements of the west bank, and soon to be Gaza show their intention is to get land they believe it's theirs already. European and American governments have a lot to answer for for allowing this massacre to continue day after day, month after month, etc. hamas have a lot to answer for a single day of massacre, neither of which are more horrific than the other, but one still continues....

 

[florduh]

If a Biden Admin official had goons forcibly wrestle Ted Cruz to the ground and handcuff them, half of Fox's viewership would've instantly died of a stroke.

Democratic Sen. Alex Padilla is forcefully removed from Noem's news conference and handcuffed

Democratic U.S. Sen. Alex Padilla of California has been forcefully removed from Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem’s news conference in Los Angeles and handcuffed by officers as he tried to speak up about immigration raids that have led to protests in California and elsewhere.

apnews.com

The United States needs California more than California needs the United States. I am calling on the quisling Governor Gruesome Gavin Newsom to immediately bend the knee to la Presidenta Claudia Sheinbaum and return California to its rightful ruler.

SOON

Viva Claudia!
Viva Mexico!

@Cheebsy

I've never understood the hate that Jews have received over the years, until recently. What they've done in Gaza is in no way proportionate to the terribly tragic events that occurred on the 7th Oct. I'm still not an antisemite, but I understand why they exist!

I understand where you're coming from, but it's not Jews. It's Israel, the United States, and the UK. Even if every Jew in America was anti-Israel, our governments would still support Israel. My little Jewish cousins in their early 20's are more anti-Israel than I am. One of the girls got the shit beat out of her at the UCLA encampment (by some of Jerry Seinfeld's wife's friends!)

This is why I constantly try to decouple Judaism from Zionism. Judaism is a beautiful faith spanning thousands of years. Zionism is a fascist political philosophy that's less than 150 years old. But everybody from Bibi to Biden keep saying Israel is doing barbarity in the name of Jews everywhere. It's stupid, it's wrong, and yes.... it is increasing antisemitism.

 

[Bazinga]

"I came and removed all these pesky natives from this place! Why do they keep attacking my ethnostate that was founded religious absolutism and currently controls all of the food, water, and healthcare entering this small portion we left the natives?"

Huh? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Before the war Israel supplied about 10 percent of the water to Gaza. Gaza water was furnished primarily by its numerous aquifers. Now unfortunately many have been destroyed. It's disturbing to learn that the Gazans wasted billions of dollars on terror when they had financial opportunity to strengthen the existing infrastructure and build new new hospitals and other badly needed projects for their people. Prosperity was forsaken for any and every possibility to eliminate Israel. I wish the Gazans peace. Do they, the Gazans, want to destroy Israel more than they want a peaceful coexistence with Israel? Do they favor the death of their children over peaceful coexistence with Israel. Ask them. They have repeated that martyrs (including children) are more significant than recgnizing Israel.The answer is obvious to most. Israel is at peace with other Middle Eastern countries. Hamas does not want peace. Show me once where they advocated peace. In fact, they openly admit they want Israel wiped away and death to Jews. I wish this war would end. Let the Palistnians and Israelis live in peace. Unfortunately it seems the Palestinians and particularly Hamas will never accept Israel or peace.

If anyone believes that Israel wants peace, you should watch the Louis theroux documentary called "the settlers" that @florduh posted about a couple of months ago. It's a fantastic documentary that shows that there is a large proportion of Israeli's that want Palestine destroyed, so much so that they can't even bring themselves to use the term Palestinians because that term gives them identity. Sounds very familiar to that hamas doctrine that was mentioned earlier...

I am not in any way racist against anyone. I've never understood the hate that Jews have received over the years, until recently. What they've done in Gaza is in no way proportionate to the terribly tragic events that occurred on the 7th Oct. I'm still not an antisemite, but I understand why they exist! The illegal settlements of the west bank, and soon to be Gaza show their intention is to get land they believe it's theirs already. European and American governments have a lot to answer for for allowing this massacre to continue day after day, month after month, etc. hamas have a lot to answer for a single day of massacre, neither of which are more horrific than the other, but one still continues....

From my reading you are correct to a point. The large portion of Israelis want peace. Unfortunately there are some hard liner radicals that are against the Palestinians. I also agree that this horrible killing has to end. Hamas needs to surrender or leave the area. How has Hamas helped the Palestinians? They haven't.

Mismatched power dynamics mean one party can engage entirely in bad faith all while claiming that the party they constantly antagonize isn't willing to negotiate. Gazans want a ceasefire. They want control of their own waterways, and electricity, and food production. Israel's government and the majority of Israelis claim they want a ceasefire. They won't give up control of any of those things.

Why would Hamas stop fighting? Their alternative is to die young with no chance of receiving adequate care. Their alternative is to go back to a status quo in which a nuclear-armed nation with no established nuclear policy controls everything that comes into their country, and controls who can leave, and regularly brutalizes and kills children. And the world does nothing. There is no one coming to save them.

If someone came to your town and put a fence around it, you might be upset. If they started patrolling that fence with guns and didn't let anyone pass unless approved, you'd be pissed. If they shut off your water and electricity regularly to punish you for entering a church that your parents and their parents and their parents all prayed in, then what? If they shot a child in front of you and pointed guns at everyone who came to help the child, what would you do? If they said that you weren't allowed to walk across town and built a fence with barbed wire so everyone was cut in half? If they stoned you while you walked, and kicked you out of your home, and said you couldn't get mail from your loved ones, then what?

Terrorism is wrong. Killing civilians is never OK. And when you take away all options for peaceful revolution, violence becomes inevitable. Never excused, but understood. If Hamas lays down arms, they go back to the slow cultural death they've experienced for decades and that's if Israel decides to hold to a ceasefire, which is not a guarantee as they unilaterally broke one before. Why does Israel get to break ceasefires and get given infinite chances? Unless the world acts and holds Israel's leaders accountable and works to deprogram the people, I can't imagine a world in which I would lay down arms in that place. There are other deaths than physical.

The fences were built to stop terrorists from entering Israel and committing acts of murder of Israeli citizens. Many Palestinians went to work everyday in Israel. Blockades were constructed to stop the influx of weapons that were constantly being provided to the terrorists. Who broke most of the ceasefires? BTW I don't for a minute think that Israel has clean hands in this mess. At the end of the day I support peace. Israel wants it Hamas has openly declared they don't.

 

[florduh]

The large portion of Israelis want peace

A larger portion wants to murder every Palestinian.

Nearly half of Israelis support army killing all Palestinians in Gaza, poll finds

An overwhelming number of Israelis, including seculars, back the forced transfer of Palestinians from Gaza and Israel

www.middleeasteye.net

The reason Israelis keep electing fascists is that most Israelis are fascists. Bibi is honestly a moderate in that country.

From 7 years ago:

This looks like going in a time machine to the American South during the Jim Crow era. Insane levels of racism.

How has Hamas helped the Palestinians?

How has Israel helped Jewish Israelis? 80 years of brutalizing Palestinians and October 7th still happened. Because the IDF was too busy defending insane settler terrorists in the West Bank, rather than the kibbutzim. Then when the IDF finally showed up, they murdered some unknown number of Israelis.

Ex Israel Army Chief Admits Using Hannibal Directive Against Own Soldiers

Former Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant authorised the controversial Hannibal Directive during the Hamas-led attack on October 7, 2023.

www.ndtv.com

Israel is a failed state. It failed at its own stated goal. Miami is about a million times safer and better for Jewish people than Israel. Embarrassing.

 

[chillAtGVC]

@Bazinga That seems like a good summary. I have come to feel that looking at this through the lens of religion is inflammatory, not useful. Group A wants (for the most part) to live in peace with Group B and have bent over backwards to make this happen. Group B wants (for the most part) all of Group A dead, or at least somewhere far away. While they don't have much in the way of means to make this happen it has not stopped them from repeatedly trying. What is Group A to do? I don't see a solution here that is not more of the same (barring actual genocide). I very much doubt that even getting rid of Hamas would result in any long term change as they appear to be widely supported in Gaza and everyone educated since Hamas came into power has been steeped in anti-Israeli thought patterns. How does that get changed?