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Pib

Active Member
@florduh It's hard to put an exact date on it because the transitions are so fluid and you can't point to one date or one discovery. If you look at ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Egypt, China, India, the Persian Empire, there were developments everywhere that led to capitalism. If I were to point to one thing, it's Isaac Newton. I think that's when a lot of people realized that mankind doesn't know everything and that religion can't explain everything. Maybe this is the origin of capitalism. From then on, at the latest, wealth was good for more than just having it, and research was encouraged. This led to the discovery of the world, the distribution of the risk of loss on many shoulders through corporations. The suppression of colonies, the beginning of empires. Perhaps Newton's laws were one of the greatest turning points in human history.

This is what I mean by the miracle that Europe left the rigid cage and gave birth to brutal capitalism. China was further developed, India, the near east, all wanted to discover the world, but Europe landed somewhere and said MINE!

I can't say whether war isn't actually the normal state of humanity.
 

JBone65

Well-Known Member

Looks like the technology is legit. The team that released crazy claims about giant caverns below the Giza Plateau held a 4 hour press conference this week and wowed the scientific community with examples of a new technology where known structures as deep as 1400 meters were clearly mapped.

Information concerning an earlier civilization and numerous huge unexplained megalithic structures around the globe could be forthcoming in the next few months or years. Have been waiting for some sort of exploration, didn't expect anything major like this. I think I'll get another puff and ruminate the possibilities.....
 

sedentree

Well-Known Member

Looks like the technology is legit. The team that released crazy claims about giant caverns below the Giza Plateau held a 4 hour press conference this week and wowed the scientific community with examples of a new technology where known structures as deep as 1400 meters were clearly mapped.

Information concerning an earlier civilization and numerous huge unexplained megalithic structures around the globe could be forthcoming in the next few months or years. Have been waiting for some sort of exploration, didn't expect anything major like this. I think I'll get another puff and ruminate the possibilities.....
I have not watched the linked video yet but Snopes says the original report is false 😢

 

JBone65

Well-Known Member
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macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
The number of measles cases has risen to 400, a spike of 73 cases over the last three days, as the historical outbreak continues to rage on in West Texas, according to state officials on Friday. Of those, 41 patients have been hospitalized.
 

bellona0544

Well-Known Member
The historical evidence of tribalism and constant warring paints a pretty clear picture that fighting is in our DNA imo. We can coexist peacefully for a while, but inevitably we're at each other's throats for something. It's a sad cycle. 😐
Anthropological evidence of organized, state-based war is scant once you extend about a myriad into the past. The Hobbesian idea of a permanent state of natural warfare has been pretty well debunked at this point, and the Rousseauian idea of a pure, zero-violence Garden of Eden-like existence is also pretty debunked.

Humans have always been a complicated, multi-faceted species. There's always been some level of violence, and humans are uniquely capable of imitating other species that do engage in warfare. I'm defining warfare here as organized violence between large, multi-population unit groups with acceptable collateral losses. Humans are kind of survival chameleons in that we can grab all kinds of strategies and skills and tools from others, and we combine that knowledge with our unique communicative capabilities to produce individuals who are well-equipped to consciously choose a means of survival. People start wars on purpose, and not on instinct; after intentional, conscious deliberation. That is unique to our species. With consciousness comes the capacity to wield that consciousness without regard for other beings. That is how I define evil.
 

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
I have not watched the linked video yet but Snopes says the original report is false 😢


I use snopes to check on lots of things but I predict it is wrong in this case.


A short skeptical look into this:


Another skeptical look into these claims:

 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I'm struggling to think of something else she could do at this exact moment in history that would better prove her critics 100% correct👍


Here's how it's gonna go every time someone tries to convince me to vote for Mayor Pete or some other loser Democrat in 2028

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That's assuming I'm not in a camp by that point. Where's that fucking loser, Obama by the way? This is all ultimately his mess. America didn't go Nazi back in the 30's because the first time capitalism collapsed, we got FDR. The second time it collapsed, we got a fucking charlatan. Now we all have to live with his failure.
 
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macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member
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vapviking

Old & In the Way

67% of Americans would not consider buying a Tesla, new poll says

A new poll shows that 67% of Americans would not consider buying or leasing a Tesla vehicle – with most...
electrek.co
electrek.co

But in Canada, Tesla made simply unbelievable sales in a 3 day period!
Here's an unlocked article about the bloated numbers.

I'm no fancy lawyer, but could Canada charge Musk for, like Terrorism?
 

TigoleBitties

Big and Bouncy
Anthropological evidence of organized, state-based war is scant once you extend about a myriad into the past. The Hobbesian idea of a permanent state of natural warfare has been pretty well debunked at this point, and the Rousseauian idea of a pure, zero-violence Garden of Eden-like existence is also pretty debunked.

Humans have always been a complicated, multi-faceted species. There's always been some level of violence, and humans are uniquely capable of imitating other species that do engage in warfare. I'm defining warfare here as organized violence between large, multi-population unit groups with acceptable collateral losses.
Yeah, it might make the picture look a little better if we look at large scale, state-sponsored organized violence with premeditation (i.e. war) but what I was trying expound on was our propensity for violence in general. Well before the concept of states and higher organizational structures, humans (or the hominid classes) battled with each other either.

Sapiens for some reason wiped out all other hominids and continued to fight amongst themselves whether out of fear, greed, scarcity of resources... you name it but there's always an uncomfortable level of violence in the species and it hasn't really abated. Even when the violence isn't organized, random violence, especially within the context of the group dynamics inherent in our social nature can often fan the flames and lead to mass killings and unexpected lengthy violent outcomes.
 
TigoleBitties,

Pib

Active Member
We see violence from our current ethical and moral point of view. Could it be that our point of view is wrong?
We must also not forget, even if we live today, our genetic code lives in the Stone Age.
These are just two cherries picked, just because we think something is right may just be a collective lie to enable us to live together in larger population centers than family farms and small villages.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I'm paraphrasing, but there's a quote from a famous atheist that goes something like, "I murder the exact number of people I want to. It just so happens that number is zero".



If you know anything about history, Trump uniting these three nations is quite a feat.

3GG7PZ9AUQ0Y.png
 

chillAtGVC

Well-Known Member
@Pib That seems like it might be correct. We may have come out on top precisely because we are so prone to lethal violence. We seem wired for violence whether it is in a bar on Friday night, in a street gang, or at the level of nations. We each carry within us an innate distrust of anyone who is different: dress, skin colour, language, culture etc. Some of us try to push it down but not matter how strongly we deny it, it is there in each of us. To paraphrase Jared Diamond, "Civilizations have arisen to give us a reason to not kill those who we meet that are different from ourselves".
 

bellona0544

Well-Known Member
@Pib That seems like it might be correct. We may have come out on top precisely because we are so prone to lethal violence. We seem wired for violence whether it is in a bar on Friday night, in a street gang, or at the level of nations. We each carry within us an innate distrust of anyone who is different: dress, skin colour, language, culture etc. Some of us try to push it down but not matter how strongly we deny it, it is there in each of us. To paraphrase Jared Diamond, "Civilizations have arisen to give us a reason to not kill those who we meet that are different from ourselves".
Diamond cherry-picks data and denies agency to peoples of the past, and has a deep, foundational materialistic view of the world that he doesn't back up with good anthropology. The reality is that violence is one option built into our DNA. The idea that violence is somehow innate in ALL humans and ALL cultures is absolutely ridiculous Original Sin stuff that isn't backed up by evidence. There are way, way, way more instances of people meeting people and NOT killing them right away than there are instances of instant battle.

Again, literally ANY trait that anyone tries to claim as "human" is necessarily faulty. We are the species of change. We are the species that both consciously and unconsciously chooses survival strategies based on what works in a given moment. Humans are not born violent, just like they aren't born peaceful. They are born with the capacity for both of those things, and their culture and society determine what aspects they engage with.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
We each carry within us an innate distrust of anyone who is different: dress, skin colour, language, culture etc. Some of us try to push it down but not matter how strongly we deny it, it is there in each of us

LOL. Most of us outgrow this during childhood. What a fucking self-report.

3At4B2a.png


All historical anthropology is guesswork, often with a large dose of bias. See Franz Boas.

Unlike your super scientific analysis that, "everyone finds people with different skin color scary!"
 

TigoleBitties

Big and Bouncy
Again, literally ANY trait that anyone tries to claim as "human" is necessarily faulty. We are the species of change. We are the species that both consciously and unconsciously chooses survival strategies based on what works in a given moment.
I think you could say this of any species and humans are prone to think they are unique among all life. I'm not so sure of this assumption and I believe most intelligent life are similar. Very hard to prove or disprove any of this.
Humans are not born violent, just like they aren't born peaceful. They are born with the capacity for both of those things, and their culture and society determine what aspects they engage with.
Sounds like a valid argument but all species need to compete (or at least believe they do or eventually are forced) to survive. I think this competition often begets violence and from there, other learned violent behaviors ensue. It doesn't mean we're all evil but the world does seem somewhat skewed to initiate at least some violence.
 
TigoleBitties,

florduh

Well-Known Member

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7471388499573280031
NYC has a chance to elect an openly socialist mayor who wants to make the city affordable for normal people again. The other option is Andrew Cuomo, a disgraced sex pervert who mass murdered what was left of the Greatest Generation in the Empire State back in 2020.
 

bellona0544

Well-Known Member
All historical anthropology is guesswork, often with a large dose of bias. See Franz Boas.
Sure, but archeological evidence is pretty clear about how humans die, and frequently see large stretches of time in which buried humans generally die of natural causes or obvious accidents and there is very limited evidence of warfare or interpersonal violence. Murders still happen in, say, inter-kingdom periods of Egypt, but they are the exception, and the times we see violence increase dramatically are when there is a strong, hierarchical, centralized authority in a region.

I think you could say this of any species and humans are prone to think they are unique among all life. I'm not so sure of this assumption and I believe most intelligent life are similar. Very hard to prove or disprove any of this.

Sounds like a valid argument but all species need to compete (or at least believe they do or eventually are forced) to survive. I think this competition often begets violence and from there, other learned violent behaviors ensue. It doesn't mean we're all evil but the world does seem somewhat skewed to initiate at least some violence.
We have dug up a decent number of humans and catalogued cause of death. The archeological review of the past century or so paints some pretty clear pictures that we cannot reject, no matter how much it contradicts the narrative that humans "naturally" behave in any particular way.

Violence and warfare and isolationist survival strategies often arise during high-stress periods. That does not mean that humans are innately violent in all ways, but just that humans can be violent. It's like saying that bark is a staple of human diets because treebarks are often eaten during times of famine. Humans can incorporate bark into their diet when they are struggling to get their nutrient needs met, but no one would say that "humans eat bark" and assume it applies to all humans equally or is some kind of default state. In the same way, humans can be violent, because violence is one way of engaging with the world. But humans are more capable than any other species we know about to consciously reject a given survival strategy, since we have way more than just instinct guiding us. Like, if all the milkweed died, monarch butterflies would go extinct because they wouldn't be able to consciously find another plant that meets their larval nutritional needs. If all the wheat in the US died because of a blight, we would consciously start growing other things to meet our subsistence needs. We are capable of using so fucking many survival strategies because we are SO good at seeing and replicating strategies other beings use. But the idea that we "are" any of those survival strategies negates that any survival strategy is a choice.
 

TigoleBitties

Big and Bouncy
The archeological review of the past century or so paints some pretty clear pictures that we cannot reject, no matter how much it contradicts the narrative that humans "naturally" behave in any particular way.
I'd be interested in the specifics. I get the impression that tools and weapons emerged somewhat simultaneously and I'm not sure how easy it would be to mark evidence of violence when some residue of violence isn't present on the skeleton from a crude weapon or finding weapons/weapon fragments nearby. Lack of written evidence, glyphs, etchings wouldn't help either.

What I remember from my history in school is a multitude of wars, skirmishes, genocides and violence. The world is a large but finite place with finite resources and it took some time but as soon as humans started bumping into each other all over the globe, violence ensued and it hasn't really stopped since. Even solitary populations of a single race face civil unrest and violence from within.
Violence and warfare and isolationist survival strategies often arise during high-stress periods.
If we can agree that survival, natural disasters, limited resources, overpopulation and the world in general will always lead to high-stress conditions then violence becomes a constant. As much as I'd like our species to use their abilities to work to eliminate violence, there doesn't seem to be any lack of it, sadly.
 
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