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Pib

Active Member
@TigoleBitties American capitalism is virtually unregulated because there is a belief that the market regulates itself. European capitalism is more regulated and places more emphasis on consumer rights. That's why Europe has health care systems and a welfare state and America has poor labor rights. That is one point why Trump hates europe. American capitalism is almost the most deviant form of capitalism there is.

Free markets are not the goal of capitalism, free regulated markets are, because the market cannot control itself. A good example is X, what is sold as free (here speech) is really oppression (here truth). If you look at the history of America, this strigently leads to this point where it is, because the sequence of events is not surprising. It's more surprising that it's happening now. Capitalism is perhaps basically positive, but the development in history is negative. The greatest suffering, most slaves and deaths of mankind are victims of capitalism, but communism was much worse....
 

bellona0544

Well-Known Member
There is a subtlety missing here. Capitalism can certainly lead to bad things like monopolies and the abuse of workers, but capitalist economies rely on free markets, where individuals and businesses can freely engage in transactions without significant government intervention.

I would hardly call what the administration is doing right now to markets "insignificant government intervention". One of the tenets of capitalism is free markets and they're certainly less free than before. It's some hideous blend of fascism and pseudo-capitalism.
If a market is free, it is exploitable. Capitalism actually always leads to monopolies and abuses of workers' rights. Any fighting against those things has been done by workers at the expense of capitalists, and the last time we had significant work reform it took many, many dead bodies.

If the system is fundamentally set up so that those who accumulate the most wealth accumulate the most power, then those folks will inevitably work to corrupt any safeguards that are put in place, and it is always going to be a matter of time until we remember the boot at our neck. There is absolutely no world in which capitalism leads to all humans being fed, because that isn't profitable. There isn't a technological limit on that anymore, as there has been for the rest of human history. The only reason people starve to death is because capitalists have decided that they are content with people starving to death so they can have more.

We wiped out measles. One of the deadliest diseases in human history. We have the productive capacity now to do things like wiping out entire diseases, producing massive excesses of calories and nutritional supplements, and providing ample housing and education to all people. The fact that we don't do any of those things is explicitly the fault of those who created and perpetuate this zero-sum system. As long as capitalists are in charge and believe they have a right to everything while every other human has a right to nothing, we will see constant and increasing violence, famine, war, plague, and death. The climate crisis is going to wipe out tens of millions if not more, and that's not accounting for the mass migration as decent portions of the planet become uninhabitable to humans.

Every single capitalist--every single billionaire, who has decided they can have more money than nations while entire other nations starve--is responsible for this. Every single one of them is aware of the coming climate crisis. This is the very first time in human history that we have genuine, globally-interconnected systems, and instead of using ALL of that brainpower to solve our issues, our leaders have told us that only they can fix the world while they rob us blind. There has never been a truly global empire before. This is a level of evil that cannot be described in any historical context. It only ends one way.

@TigoleBitties American capitalism is virtually unregulated because there is a belief that the market regulates itself. European capitalism is more regulated and places more emphasis on consumer rights. That's why Europe has health care systems and a welfare state and America has poor labor rights. That is one point why Trump hates europe. American capitalism is almost the most deviant form of capitalism there is.

Free markets are not the goal of capitalism, free regulated markets are, because the market cannot control itself. A good example is X, what is sold as free (here speech) is really oppression (here truth). If you look at the history of America, this strigently leads to this point where it is, because the sequence of events is not surprising. It's more surprising that it's happening now. Capitalism is perhaps basically positive, but the development in history is negative. The greatest suffering, most slaves and deaths of mankind are victims of capitalism, but communism was much worse....
Authoritarianism always results in mass death. Communist countries across the board saw massive quality of life increases initially as power was distributed to the people, but those increases were always eroded because setting up a dictatorship of the proletariat ultimately still means there is a dictator, and that level of concentrated power can never produce results that are agreeable to the greatest number of people possible. Without self-determination, there is no system that will be good. Self-determination and the weakening of modern nation-states, corporations, and institutions go hand-in-hand.

And the idea that communism was worse is also questionable. Capitalism saw the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, two world wars, mass incarceration states with deplorable conditions, the opioid crisis, the war on terror and its subsequent genocides, forced sterilizations of minority groups, and about a million other mass-death/genocidal events. I do not say this as a means of venerating Stalinist Russia or Maoist China, but to point out that much of the perceived "superiority" of capitalism over communism is propaganda that allows authoritarians in the West to rule without question cuz "at least we aren't commies".
 

Radwin Bodnic

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
but capitalist economies rely on free markets, where individuals and businesses can freely engage in transactions without significant government intervention.
Let me be clear : economy is not a science. It is merely a theory that is fanatically applied like a religion. Capitalism is the rule of the most capital. not the rule of free markets. And market are part of the theory : this is imaginary. A creation of the human psyche without any real basis.
 

Pib

Active Member
And the idea that communism was worse is also questionable.
Okay, I generalized a bit too much. The form that emerged from communism was worse. The biggest problem with communism is that everyone is equal, only some are more equal (same problem as capitalism). The idea of communism is brilliant, I've read the manifesto. But it just doesn't work because we are human and humanity itself is not really as smart as it is made out to be. In principle, our entire foundation exists on fantasy. The rule of law only works as long as its members believe in it. All our knowledge is fantasy, it is only adapted to match reality.
 
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florduh

Well-Known Member
Communism doesn't arise is well functioning countries. In basically every case communism was a massive improvement over what preceded it. If you think prerevolutionary Russia, China, or Cuba are preferrable to the Communist régimes you're simply ignorant of history (or your family used to own slaves in one of those countries).

People forget South Vietnam was a dictatorship. So was South Korea until what... the 90's?

Also just gonna throw out there that the capitalist British Empire killed more people in India alone than every Communist régime in history combined.

But it just doesn't work because we are human and humanity itself is not really as smart as it is made out to be.

I don't know what "doesn't work" means in this context. We have two recent examples of Communists taking over agrarian feudal backwaters and turning them into industrial world powers in a matter of 20-30 years. It took Western capitalists centuries to make the same transition.

Also relevant:

 

TigoleBitties

Big and Bouncy
Let me be clear : economy is not a science. It is merely a theory that is fanatically applied like a religion. Capitalism is the rule of the most capital. not the rule of free markets. And market are part of the theory : this is imaginary. A creation of the human psyche without any real basis.
Yes but all government is the creation of the human psyche. It's not real until we make it real, just like the concept of money itself.

I would also like to say, that I am not in love with capitalism or capitalist ideas as the main thrust is to make a profit. However there are offshoots of capitalism (anarcho capitalism, free-market capitalism, state capitalism...).

In these contemporary times, most would think when they hear "capitalism" that it implies "free-market capitalism" that until recently, the US was kind of the standard concrete example of - or a good version on the world stage, for what that's worth. I'm not trying to advocate that the capitalism the US had was inherently good, just that the version we're seeing now is far worse.
 

Radwin Bodnic

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
I don't know what "doesn't work" means in this context. We have two recent examples of Communists taking over agrarian feudal backwaters and turning them into industrial world powers in a matter of 20-30 years. It took Western capitalists centuries to make the same transition.

Communism is the dictatorship of the proletariat. It is still a society organized towards work and productivity, and ultimately the exploitation of natural resources.

Marx definition of work as something emancipating, fulfilling and satisfying is attractive but let's be honest, there will always be shitty jobs and there will always be days where you're not in the mood for work. Also there will always be disabled or less productive people.

humans can't be free if the society is built upon work and production. IMHO communism threats our environment and our existences just as much as capitalism.

Yes but all government is the creation of the human psyche.

True ! And just like religion or economic theory, any form of government cannot exist without some sort of domination.

I'll leave these here :
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quote-as-long-as-hierarchy-persists-as-long-as-domination-organises-humanity-around-a-system-murray-bookchin-81-46-52.jpg


Edit :
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macbill

Oh No! Mr macbill!!
Staff member

Ford calls for retaliatory tariffs to 'inflict as much pain as possible' on Americans

Ontario Premier Doug Ford said he's in full support of retaliatory tariffs after U.S. President Donald Trump announced a new 25 per cent tariff Wednesday on cross-border auto trade.

"We're going to make sure that we inflict as much pain as possible to the American people without inflicting pain on the Canadian population," Ford said at Queen's Park on Wednesday.
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
Communism is the dictatorship of the proletariat.

IMO, that is more moral than a dictatorship of the bourgeois like we have in the US or EU :shrug:

To be clear, the only reason I will defend communism is because in the United States services like universal healthcare or a free college education are labeled as socialism or communism. "Well that's SOCIALISM" is a thought terminating cliche in the US, and I prefer to address it head on.

Marx definition of work as something emancipating, fulfilling and satisfying is attractive but let's be honest, there will always be shitty jobs and there will always be days where you're not in the mood for work.

I think it's more that if you're going to work, you should be entitled to the full benefit of your labor. You should also have a democratic voice in your working conditions, pay, and schedule.

IMHO communism threats our environment and our existences just as much as capitalism.

If you're talking about Marxism-Leninism, you have an argument. But for 99% of human existence, we lived as primitive communists. And the ultimate goal of small "c" communism is a classless, stateless, moneyless society.

@Radwin Bodnic have you ever read this short novel?

9780586042199-us.jpg


It contrasts an anarchist society living on a moon with the planet they orbit comprised of several Capitalist and Communist nations.
 

Radwin Bodnic

Well-Known Member
Accessory Maker
And the ultimate goal of small "c" communism anarchism is a classless, stateless, moneyless society.
Fixed that for you :tup:

have you ever read this short novel?
I haven't ! But thanks for the suggestion, that's exactly what I could read these days. And with all my books being packed in cardboards for at least one more year, i'm going to bargain-hunt this one !
 
Radwin Bodnic,
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florduh

Well-Known Member
I haven't ! But thanks for the suggestion, that's exactly what I could read these days. And with all my books being packed in cardboards for at least one more year, i'm going to bargain-hunt this one !

Oh, you'll love it! I'm fairly certain Le Guin was an anarchist herself. She's known for this banger quote:

3u1taHB.png


the end of the world pretty soon.

So long as it's before I get sent to an El Salvadorian concentration camp 🙏
 

CANtalk

Well-Known Member
“Beatings will continue until morale improves”
hv4lix9ha6re1.png

Meanwhile Trump has ordered his officials to draft proposals on lifting the sanctions against Russia.

Trump says US will 'go as far as we have to' to get control of Greenland​


Totally normal stuff /s

Russian scientist from Harvard Medical School detained in U.S., faces deportation and likely arrest upon return due to anti-war stance​


Kristi Noem Appears to Have Worn $60K Gold Rolex During El Salvador Prison Stunt​


Trump order targets ‘divisive narratives’ in Smithsonian museums​


Trump administration at ‘war’ with mRNA technology: scientists alarmed vaccine skeptics could kill research​


https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/1jl3own

Canada Announces Bombshell Break With U.S. Over Trump​


a2cmnu4p9cre1.png



:peace: :leaf:
 
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vapviking

Old & In the Way
At Least 1,400 Academics Call To Boycott Columbia For Free Speech Crackdown

This may not sound like big news, but I think it is a good start to somebody, anybody getting organized to resist the machine. And it is only a start.
Academics in Universities, in order to maintain their postions, are often dependent on outside peer review of their work, for one thing. Also for collaboration on grants and review of research; there is an inherent interdependence in the field of higher education that is not evident across the business world.

In the Spring of 1970, in protest of the escalation of US bombing in Cambodia, student strikes all across the country shut down hundreds of colleges and universities. It was my freshman year of college and it literally ended early. Along with getting our schools shut down we got them to change some major policies about student life and rights. In my school, every student was given Pass/Fail grades and we went home.

All I'm saying is that resistance has to come fom somewhere if it is not from our "political" leaders. (Gotta say I love that Bernie is still rattling the cage.)
 

sedentree

Well-Known Member
https://www.hamiltonnolan.com/p/the-underlying-problem

The underlying cause of our situation is inequality. We have allowed too few people to accumulate too much wealth. The imbalance has grown so severe that a tiny number of individuals with twelve-figure net worths have the means to purchase so much political power that they can effectively make the federal government’s decisions. The significant thing about the way that Elon Musk is presently dismantling our government is not the existence of his own political delusions, or his own self-interested quest to privatize public functions, or his own misreading of economics; it is the fact that he is able to do it. And he is able to do it because he has several hundred billion dollars. If he did not have several hundred billion dollars he would just be another idiot with bad opinions. Because he has several hundred billion dollars his bad opinions are now our collective lived experience.
 

Pib

Active Member
I don't know what "doesn't work" means in this context. We have two recent examples of Communists taking over agrarian feudal backwaters and turning them into industrial world powers in a matter of 20-30 years. It took Western capitalists centuries to make the same transition.
But this communism is a capitalist communism, the word communism does not hit the point, it is not communism in the sence of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. The fact that it took so long in the West may be because capitalism had to grow first from an idea to a dream, that whole countries Dream. Such a drastic change does not happen overnight. Instead, the West has Europeanized the entire world in its mindset, not in the sense of Europe, but in the sense of the mindset of capitalism. It is a miracle that the West achieved control of the world, that is solely due to capitalism. Previously, the center was largely in Asia with up to 80% of the world's wealth. It was only when the other countries understood how capitalism and credit work that the power shifted again.


Since you are always so keen on China, China is not smarter or better, they are just playing the same game now. Russia went through the same change after the collapse of the USSR, but couldn't cope and went from a state of shock to what it is now. China is only using its opportunities, but it is doing so very well.
 
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Pib,

Pib

Active Member
@florduh that's not the point I meant by miracle, rather that it happened in such an insignificant part of the world at that time and not in China or India.
 
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florduh

Well-Known Member
@florduh that's not the point I meant by miracle, rather that it happened in such an insignificant part of the world at that time and not in China or India.

I see. I'm not entirely sure what time period you're referring to. But I listened to an entertaining history podcast series a while back, called Hell on Earth: The Thirty Years War & The Violent Birth of Capitalism



The first line is,
Europe and the West did not come easily into Capitalism. It was dragged into it, bleeding and screaming.

It might be remedial for a European, but it's well researched and entertaining.

Not related to the birth of capitalism, but something I hear constantly in America is, "those people in the Middle East have been killing each other for thousands of years". For one, this is inaccurate historically. But also... "advanced" Europeans were warring with each other constantly from the dawn of time, until 1945.
 
florduh,

CANtalk

Well-Known Member
Confirmed actions
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Donald Trump pushes for near-total control of Ukraine’s minerals and energy in huge increase on earlier demands​


Mark Cuban Says a ‘Red Rural Recession’ Is Coming Soon. Cuts, Firings, and Grant Cancellations Are Set to Wreck Small Town Economies​


:peace: :leaf:
 
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florduh

Well-Known Member
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