Firewood Vaporizer

[vapen00b]

I checked earlier today, and there are some little crumbs in/around the heating element, including a bit that's lodged in between where the coil is and the wood part. I doubt I can get that out, but is there a way to clean the other bits out of the vape? Last night I noticed a smell sort of like combusted herb near the mouthpiece, so I'm a little concerned.

Some suggested blowing compressed air through the intakes IIRC. Read back some pages or search this thread... has been mentioned - but I think know one has cleaned that heating cylinder completely. Guess it's almost impossible, the stuff is trapped in there an pretty sticky usually. Good luck though!

 

[Mr Mellish]

This made me laugh.
I was scrolling back through posts wondering if there were any known battery issues. Because mine was failing to power back up after I powered down following a few good hits and a short rest. Sometimes I was wondering if it was running too hot, but I'd have it happen when it was,still rather cool, and I'd have it happen when I knew it was well charged. So I was starting to worry about the health of my unit.

And then I read this.

I, too, am a dumbass.
How am I supposed to remember to set temperature after I've had a few good rips already??

But I am happy to have a properly functioning unit.

Thanks! I'm here all week..

 

[hippogriff]

Well I've just sold my FW3 to Italy, and I look forward to putting that money towards a FW4! Fully behind all the details teased so far, including keeping the capsule system and the current interface. Big fan of product development in general, love the details we get here, thanks!

- charging? Personally, i'd go for no charging port and no charger, keeps it clean and I'm happy charging externally, it's very supported w/ 18650s
- extendable mouthpiece? I quickly modded my mouthpiece to make it longer - it really only takes another 1.5" of open glass tube to cool noticeably (don't want it Crafty cool, more heat feels/tastes better), and I didn't want to put my lips on the wood during use. If the new cooling mouthpiece is integrated into the body, I'll still want it to extend at least .75" beyond the wood during use.
- only thing I really want to change w/ the interface: 5 second hold for shutoff is too long! It's the only time I felt awkward holding the FW, please make it the same as turn-on.

Do you think we'll get to see a prototype before Summer's up?

 

[firewood]

- charging? Personally, i'd go for no charging port and no charger, keeps it clean and I'm happy charging externally, it's very supported w/ 18650s
- extendable mouthpiece? I quickly modded my mouthpiece to make it longer - it really only takes another 1.5" of open glass tube to cool noticeably (don't want it Crafty cool, more heat feels/tastes better), and I didn't want to put my lips on the wood during use. If the new cooling mouthpiece is integrated into the body, I'll still want it to extend at least .75" beyond the wood during use.
- only thing I really want to change w/ the interface: 5 second hold for shutoff is too long! It's the only time I felt awkward holding the FW, please make it the same as turn-on.

Do you think we'll get to see a prototype before Summer's up?

Glad to hear you feel that way about having external charger only. I'm a tiny bit sad to lose the ease of just plugging the unit in to charge, but also happy about how removing the charger port makes it cleaner and reduces the size. I definitely am making sure that the removal and swapping of batteries can be done as quickly and easily as possible.

I think we are on the same page with the mouthpiece. It won't cool the vapor too much...just enough to take larger, more comfortable draws but not so much that you lose the feel.

I can easily make that change on the shutdown button press duration. That's an easy one and I can agree with the change.

There will almost definitely be a prototype sighting by the end of the summer. I have a really rough unit now, that basically just proves to me that I can accomplish all my design goals and gives me high confidence that everything will work. It only works in manual mode now where you press the button to go straight to temp then press it again to turn it off, but that's enough to make it is obvious to me that this one will be significantly better than fw3 in pretty much every measurable aspect

 

[KeroZen]

Will it be "on demand" (ie with a trigger) like the FW2.1 and the Milaana? Will you use some kind of temperature control (closed loop system) or will it be manual like FW2.1? What kind of heater power are you aiming at, knowing that Mighty is 30W and Zion/Milaana are more 50-60W?

So far I'm uber pleased by what you announced excepted one part: the fact you want to make it asymmetrical with a larger side where the battery is. I have a single asym device (the Elo) and from an aesthetical point of view it's ugly, it looks like a coffin when seen from above. IIRC the sidekick is also asym and I find it ugly too. I think I would prefer having the same width from side to side.

 

[just_the_flu]

... i agree a trigger button of some sort would be tops.
i thought i would like the draw sensor system, a button would be an improvement.

I also second the asymmetrical statement.

 

[E0x]

Will it be "on demand" (ie with a trigger) like the FW2.1 and the Milaana? Will you use some kind of temperature control (closed loop system) or will it be manual like FW2.1? What kind of heater power are you aiming at, knowing that Mighty is 30W and Zion/Milaana are more 50-60W?

So far I'm uber pleased by what you announced excepted one part: the fact you want to make it asymmetrical with a larger side where the battery is. I have a single asym device (the Elo) and from an aesthetical point of view it's ugly, it looks like a coffin when seen from above. IIRC the sidekick is also asym and I find it ugly too. I think I would prefer having the same width from side to side.

... i agree a trigger button of some sort would be tops.
i thought i would like the draw sensor system, a button would be an improvement.

I also second the asymmetrical statement.

i disagree about the button idea , i think the actual system is better only need improve the heating time and @firewood say i will be improve too.

 

[firewood]

Will it be "on demand" (ie with a trigger) like the FW2.1 and the Milaana? Will you use some kind of temperature control (closed loop system) or will it be manual like FW2.1? What kind of heater power are you aiming at, knowing that Mighty is 30W and Zion/Milaana are more 50-60W?

So far I'm uber pleased by what you announced excepted one part: the fact you want to make it asymmetrical with a larger side where the battery is. I have a single asym device (the Elo) and from an aesthetical point of view it's ugly, it looks like a coffin when seen from above. IIRC the sidekick is also asym and I find it ugly too. I think I would prefer having the same width from side to side.

It will have temp control very similar to fw3, i.e no trigger. The heater power isn't a simple answer because it varies on the battery charge, draw speed, heater temperature, etc. For a room temp start at full battery charge it will be around 32W and for low battery around 24W.
Sorry about the asymmetry but I think that is definitely going to be part of the design. I wouldn't judge it until you see it though. I personally think it will be the best looking firewood. The other firewoods seem like simple boxes in comparison. The asymmetry and the way the battery lid and mouthpiece all fit together I think will add some visual appeal.

... i agree a trigger button of some sort would be tops.
i thought i would like the draw sensor system, a button would be an improvement.

Why do you prefer a trigger?

 

[nosmoking]

It will have temp control very similar to fw3, i.e no trigger. The heater power isn't a simple answer because it varies on the battery charge, draw speed, heater temperature, etc. For a room temp start at full battery charge it will be around 32W and for low battery around 24W.
Sorry about the asymmetry but I think that is definitely going to be part of the design. I wouldn't judge it until you see it though. I personally think it will be the best looking firewood. The other firewoods seem like simple boxes in comparison. The asymmetry and the way the battery lid and mouthpiece all fit together I think will add some visual appeal.

Why do you prefer a trigger?

The draw sensors seems like a faulty concept to me Marc. Not that they really are, but there is a lot of hit or miss with the draw system. I felt like my warranty replaced FW3 draw sensor was not nearly as consistent or strong of a read as my original FW3. Many have had similar issues on the ESV with knowing when it is really reading the draw or not, however it at least has a light indicator to assure the user when the device is or should be heating up. Considering convection takes a really slow draw, this gets even trickier to read IMHO. A button is more reassuring because I know if I am pushing it or not. Also, for those whom have shortness of breath (which I may suffer from time to time) it gets very difficult to rely on a draw sensor because by the time you realize the draw sensor is working you may already be out of breath.

I really feel a button is better than a draw sensor.

 

[just_the_flu]

Why do you prefer a trigger?

...In my opinion a trigger would be better because it would make the user feel more in control.

@nosmoking said it well.. sometimes the draw sensor felt finicky (or didn't trigger?).
instead of a "prime" draw you could just press button before you draw.


... since were talking changes, maybe i missed it, could you add temperature memory please?

 

[Splatterpop Circus]

I'm still not sure if my problem is a defective unit or not, but if it isn't, I suspect some of my problems using my Firewood are down to the draw sensor. Put me down for Team Trigger as well.

 

[nosmoking]

I am surprised that @Mr Mellish or I didn't ask for temperature memory. We both seem to have plenty of trouble remembering to preset between the two of us!

 

[Mr Mellish]

I am surprised that @Mr Mellish or I didn't ask for temperature memory. We both seem to have plenty of trouble remembering to preset between the two of us!

I don't want to brag, but I finally got this down... The memory might be nice but it's gotten to be a reflex now, so I'm not as concerned. Sure, it took a few weeks but...

Definitely looking forward to seeing what the FW4 looks like. The wooden brick has appealed to me because I have it in a bag for one of my powerbanks and, at a quick glance, with the mouthpiece loaded down into the bag, it almost looks like powerbank.

I've finally received my Grasshoppers and I can report that the FW3 still remains my tastiest vape.

 

[hippogriff]

Will it be "on demand" (ie with a trigger) like the FW2.1 and the Milaana? Will you use some kind of temperature control (closed loop system) or will it be manual like FW2.1? What kind of heater power are you aiming at, knowing that Mighty is 30W and Zion/Milaana are more 50-60W?

So far I'm uber pleased by what you announced excepted one part: the fact you want to make it asymmetrical with a larger side where the battery is. I have a single asym device (the Elo) and from an aesthetical point of view it's ugly, it looks like a coffin when seen from above. IIRC the sidekick is also asym and I find it ugly too. I think I would prefer having the same width from side to side.

I agree that the Elo and Sidekick are ugly vapes, but they're also big, chunky vapes, w too many visible details which compounds the ugly. At the smaller size Marc is talking about I can see a wedge or taper looking pretty sweet, and fitting comfortably in hand. Can already imagine it in walnut.

 

[firewood]

Thanks for the responses about why a trigger is preferred. I'd like to try and address those issues in some way other than using a trigger though because I honestly got pretty sick of holding the trigger on pre-fw3 and I think there is a better way. I think I have one simple solution(s) that should help address those problems...

One change would be to add a single quick buzz any time the vape detects a draw when the heater is below the set temp. This is a pretty simple change but has 2 important effects:
1 - When the vape has been idle (like between draws) and you start a new draw, the vape would give one quick buzz, which solves the problem where users are uncertain about whether the vape is sensing the draw or not. This way if a unit does not give the buzz we will know it is defective, else it is sensing the draw properly and there is some other issue. It helps solve the problem of control because you get instant feedback knowing that you started the heater.
2 - When you are mid draw (after a primer puff) you would get a buzz if you are drawing too fast, i.e. the heater cannot keep up and is falling too far below the set temp. People generally know that it is better to draw slowly, but how slowly? This helps answer that question and I think would eliminate some user error.


Regarding the temp memory... My issue with that is that i want to force the user to set the temp after the unit is turned on because it forces them to take an additional step before the heat ever turns on. If the device accidentally turns on, this provides a safeguard against smells accidentally emanating from the unit or other possible issues with inadvertant turns ons and heating. Is there a compromise? Maybe there could be some other mode that you can turn on through a special button sequence. If you guys could have the temp memory exactly how you want it, what does that mean exactly in terms of the sequence of turning on the button to when you take first draw?

 

[paytonpenn]

Thanks for the responses about why a trigger is preferred. I'd like to try and address those issues in some way other than using a trigger though because I honestly got pretty sick of holding the trigger on pre-fw3 and I think there is a better way. I think I have one simple solution(s) that should help address those problems...

But that was holding the trigger for an entire minute and a whole session. The trigger should be a pulse, you press and hold the trigger. It heats (you have about 12 seconds to begin your draw (based on how long you hold the trigger to choose temp (maybe increase vibs as you hold so you can tell its getting more intense)), you must begin your draw before it times out. It will continue to heat until it doesn't detect draw, then immediately and automatically off.

I hope I explained it well. Don't forget the party mode that doesn't care about draw detection and just wants to heat it up for a certain time period.

 

[firewood]

I think i understand but not 100% sure. Are you saying that once you set the temp by holding the button you can then let go and it will continue to heat until you stop drawing? Or would you need to keep holding it even once the heater is activated?

 

[paytonpenn]

I think i understand but not 100% sure. Are you saying that once you set the temp by holding the button you can then let go and it will continue to heat until you stop drawing? Or would you need to keep holding it even once the heater is activated?

Yes, you can let go after the one initial hold. Only one button press for 3-7 seconds. If you need more time for more temps then that is acceptable.

The heater should activate once you have held the trigger for 3 seconds, it should then give the first set of buzzes indicating low temp range. You will want to continue holding to keep increasing the temp at that point. Max amount of time to hold should be 10 seconds. Heating does not happen after the button press but during the middle of the pulse.

You should not keep holding the button after the fierce buzzing stops, around 10 seconds.

 

[KeroZen]

It will have temp control very similar to fw3, i.e no trigger.

I didn't get the FW3, so pardon my ignorance. But I was under the impression you went digital (as it has settings etc) but it wasn't clear to me if it was freerunning like the FW2.1 is (you can combust if you overdo) or if it was a closed-loop system with some kind of temperature sensor feedback or resistance change read etc?

The heater power isn't a simple answer because it varies on the battery charge, draw speed, heater temperature, etc. For a room temp start at full battery charge it will be around 32W and for low battery around 24W.

So it will be unregulated... hm. It would be even better if you could get rid of the battery level parameter, by using a boost converter to get a constant voltage output. Battery draw (in term of amps) would rise as the source voltage drops, but if you select your parameters carefully you should not exceed the battery rating. A buck/boost converter would be even better and in fact it's what most single cell e-cig box mods use.

By the way I would really prefer if you took advantage of the latest high discharge IMR cells, as many of us already have plenty. They can output 20A continuous (even 30A for some with lower capacity) and you can discharge them down to 2.5V (although stopping at 3.2V or above is better for longevity) 32W is not too shabby but you could aim for 40W easily.

Last but not least, I would prefer if you design for flat top cells rather than button tops, but it's just because I have more of the former...

Sorry about the asymmetry (...) The other firewoods seem like simple boxes in comparison.

The wooden brick has appealed to me because I have it in a bag for one of my powerbanks and, at a quick glance, with the mouthpiece loaded down into the bag, it almost looks like powerbank.

I have no doubts it could be made visually appealing but I'm with @Mr Mellish here, the wooden brick was quite stealthy when not in use and could be passed as a hard drive or another electronic appliance.

But ok, the Elo was particularily ugly and thick... it won't be too hard to do something better looking!

I honestly got pretty sick of holding the trigger on pre-fw3 and I think there is a better way.

As others said having to do a primer puff is not optimal, and many people reported problems with draws not registered using all devices with such kind of sensor.

Also keep in mind that with that much power you will get near instant vapor. In the Milaana we have to preheat for 2 seconds at most (or not at all when hot and running) then hold the button 3 or 4 seconds and release. Some people hold it longer but it's nowhere like what it was with the FW2 and 2.1 were some people resolved to using rubberbands to keep the trigger pressed all the time.

So when it's near instant it's not really a chore anymore. The trick is to select a nice button with a good click and not too much resistance (pressure wise)

With a draw sensor you will always have some users complain that it doesn't register soft draws, and if you set it too sensitive it could trigger just with a breeze... Plus the sensor can get clogged etc.

 

[Fat Freddy]

Well...while were wishing...could you make the FW4 so that every night after we go to bed it magically fills itself back up with top shelf bud? Even mids would be okay, I guess.


.

 

[firewood]

So it will be unregulated...

Not exactly true. What is your exact definition of a regulated vs. unregulated power supply? I don't want to divulge a lot of details about how the control circuitry works, but there are set temps and the battery is definitely not averaging full power, except for the initial warmup.

By the way I would really prefer if you took advantage of the latest high discharge IMR cells, as many of us already have plenty. They can output 20A continuous (even 30A for some with lower capacity) and you can discharge them down to 2.5V (although stopping at 3.2V or above is better for longevity) 32W is not too shabby but you could aim for 40W easily.

Yes it will use high discharge cells. I am doing development with LG he2. It isn't the absolute best, but very good. I want to do dev on a more typical cell, then something like a hg2 will be even better. I could go higher than 32W but testing on my 32W unit tells me it doesn't need any more power, and going higher puts higher demand on the circuit and components.

So when it's near instant it's not really a chore anymore. The trick is to select a nice button with a good click and not too much resistance (pressure wise)

With a draw sensor you will always have some users complain that it doesn't register soft draws, and if you set it too sensitive it could trigger just with a breeze... Plus the sensor can get clogged etc.

I get that it isn't as bad with near instant heat up but it can still be a pain with a good 30 second+ draw. It just doesn't make sense to have to hold the button the whole time. Plus I think a buzz feedback to notify you when it senses a draw would solve the issue of uncertainty over whether it sensed a draw. I have never experienced the finicky draw sensor on all of the units i have used, and there are probably dozens of customers who initially had issues but got the hang of it and now love it. This tells me it is mainly a technique issue... not that that makes it less of an issue, just that I think the draw sensing is technically working ok. It is possible that there are units where it isn't working, but in those cases the buzz feedback would make that obvious and the problem could get fixed.

Also, it's impossible for my sensor to get clogged, it isn't that kind of sensor.

 

[KeroZen]

Alright fair enough and fine with me. You know what you are doing and the FW3 was and is still much appreciated by its users, I can only imagine the FW4 being even better.

By switching to Li-Ion chemistries you're solving my biggest remaining gripe with your previous designs and I couldn't be happier. I'm eager to see the FW4 prototypes in action and I wish you to succeed.

 

[firewood]

Alright fair enough and fine with me. You know what you are doing and the FW3 was and is still much appreciated by its users, I can only imagine the FW4 being even better.

Thanks, and thanks for the thoughtful feedback and ideas. Even if i disagree with a suggestion or feature request, I still view it as invaluable information. Especially when there is more than one customer saying it. I think in many situations where there is a disagreement over a feature, there is an elegant solution laying hidden that makes everybody happy and it is my job to try and find that. Maybe I don't always find it right away, but that is the process of continual improvement.

 

[nosmoking]

@firewood When the sensor and technique work together well I do seem to like it quite a bit over a button so I think the buzz indicator might be just what is needed. The light on the ESV always helped me to be more consistent but it is also instant heat so you get vapor feedback almost instantly as well. It sounds like your moving your heater to work closer to this and I can see how this would be very enjoyable.

I am also not really concerned about temp memory myself. I know I mentioned it above, but that was more for a laugh honestly.

The FW3 really is a great vaporizer. I just recommended it the other day on here. The batteries were the biggest downfall I think and you have addressed that which is going to be great because it sounds like your going to focus on using a battery that I already have a bunch laying around.

With you being so open to input, I would like to discuss the vapor path. I don't know much about the FW1 or 2. I only have had an FW3 and the heater was surrounded by a glass tube, however the vapor path was the bare wood of the unit. I think you would increase flavor profile if you extend that glass tube up to the backend of the capsule as much as possible to minimize or eliminate exposure of wood to the air path.

 

[friedrich]

I get that it isn't as bad with near instant heat up but it can still be a pain with a good 30 second+ draw. It just doesn't make sense to have to hold the button the whole time. Plus I think a buzz feedback to notify you when it senses a draw would solve the issue

That sounds great. I've never had an issue with the draw sense, but a little feedback would be nice anyway. I like just puffing away on my FW3 without having to do anything else after setting the temperature.

@firewood
The FW3 really is a great vaporizer. I just recommended it the other day on here. The batteries were the biggest downfall I think and you have addressed that which is going to be great because it sounds like your going to focus on using a battery that I already have a bunch laying around.

With you being so open to input, I would like to discuss the vapor path. I don't know much about the FW1 or 2. I only have had an FW3 and the heater was surrounded by a glass tube, however the vapor path was the bare wood of the unit. I think you would increase flavor profile if you extend that glass tube up to the backend of the capsule as much as possible to minimize or eliminate exposure of wood to the air path.

I actually liked the FW3's internally-charging battery situation, but now that I have 18650s and an external charger anyway, I welcome the change.
Will one charge be enough for a similar amount of usage??

While we're on the vapor path, how about a built-in screen over the heating element as well to prevent abv crumbs falling in there?