Everybody got what they wanted. Now what?

[Shit Snacks]

I think these posts capture the situation at present. all-convection still has issues (battery, stirring, hot spots), despite what progress has been made, and I think it's a fair assumption that S&B will come out with an all-convection vape when they come up with something as easy to use as crafty/mighty - it's practically a no-brainer that they're working on it.

another thing I can't speak to, since I'm still on the all-convection sidelines, is people commenting about the declining flavor in these vapes: super good for a hit or 2 (or 3?), then - not so much. it makes sense to me: once you've heated the weed a few times, expecting it to taste like that first hit or 2 after that, whether it's convection or not, seems like a pipe dream. you have to be a die-hard to put up with the fussiness of all-convection vapes (battery life, stirring, hot spots) if the payoff is only a few good hits.

what am I missing here?

You are way over generalizing in a negative perspective, to say all convection vapes suffer from poor battery life necessary stirring n hotspotting is just not true...

For one thing it's not just a few good hits, hit for hit much stronger, and totally dependent on how you load and the vape are using, not to mention the user themselves! Sure a lot of convection vapes are more manual, but it is possible to have full regulation now without any of the issues you are describing...

 

[darbarikanada]

all convection vapes suffer from poor battery life necessary stirring n hotspotting

perhaps I should've phrased it differently. I wrote 'all-convection' to differentiate from hybrid or conduction - I wasn't referring to 'all convection vapes...' I'm under the impression that taffee bowle and tinymight are the current all-convection favorites, but don't both have - to some degree - issues with battery life, need to stir and/or hot spots (not necessarily all three)? from what I've read the mix of these issues varies, e.g. taffee has a short battery life, tinymight needs stirring (and its vapor is too hot for some people if you don't use a long stem).

 

[Shit Snacks]

perhaps I should've phrased it differently. I wrote 'all-convection' to differentiate from hybrid or conduction - I wasn't referring to 'all convection vapes...' I'm under the impression that taffee bowle and tinymight are the current all-convection favorites, but don't both have - to some degree - issues with battery life, need to stir and/or hot spots (not necessarily all three)? from what I've read the mix of these issues varies, e.g. taffee has a short battery life, tinymight needs stirring (and its vapor is too hot for some people if you don't use a long stem).

Oh! Ah, well, still the answer is no lol

I have no real problem with Tafée battery life, nor stirring in tinymight, and yeah heat is always something to manage with any good vapor, convection is hot air after all...

There are also just so many other convection vapes aside from those two, portables and plug-ins, yes there's pros and cons with every vape some moreso than others, and like I said it really depends on the user too... Sure some people have the problems you describe, but they are not universal problems with all pure convection vapes. So yeah, just over generalizing

 

[Ramahs]

I never stir my Woodscents logs, my Flowerpot, or my Nomad. And I don't have a problem with hotspots on those.

 

[arb]

Dreamwood 18,stempod with capsules,i-heat are the only ones that I don't feel compelled to stir.

 

[cptofnthng]

TB doesnt need stirring either. p80 works without too.
maybe it could be an automated feature one day though? Like slightly rotating the bowl or something.

 

[invertedisdead]

I keep typing out epic rants to this thread, but I wonder how many can see that the real reason for lack of innovation is entirely an economics issue?

It's easy for a guy in his garage to innovate, but turning that into a mass produced product is something entirely different. First of all, most people tinkering in their garage aren't even designing for production. Most of these hand made craft-built ideas would never work at scale. S&B is the king because they understand how to design for efficient manufacturing.

 

[cx714]

Most of these hand made craft-built ideas would never work at scale. S&B is the king because they understand how to design for efficient manufacturing.

Not entirely sure I agree. Most of the great vapes out there are pretty mechanically simple— from your Firewood and TinyMight to the Vapbong and Vapcap. Like as not, the technologically advanced bits are already being cranked out in a big factory. So really, it comes down to setting up a production line, which RBT already showed was possible with the Mi3.

Where I do agree is that there isn’t enough demand to justify it. FC is an enthusiast community— it’s on the cutting edge of grass consumption. In the real world the Mighty is still blowing minds. And they’ve already got a factory and pole position on Reddit.

 

[invertedisdead]

Not entirely sure I agree. Most of the great vapes out there are pretty mechanically simple— from your Firewood and TinyMight to the Vapbong and Vapcap. Like as not, the technologically advanced bits are already being cranked out in a big factory. So really, it comes down to setting up a production line, which RBT already showed was possible with the Mi3.

Most of the devices you listed are essentially on a constant back order though, which is pretty much my point.

The only one who is moving a lot of units is Dynavap and that’s because they understand designing at scale. TM has seen considerable improvements in lead time for direct orders over the last year, but none of their retailers have stock.

Setting up a production line is a great idea, assuming one can generate or source the capital to do so. But that’s typically a major challenge with the guys tinkering in their garage.

Where I do agree is that there isn’t enough demand to justify it. FC is an enthusiast community— it’s on the cutting edge of grass consumption.

Hopefully, pending any further absurd legislation, the market will be bigger and better in a few years as more people grow to appreciate vaping! IMO vaporizing is way bigger than ever, it just wasn’t necessarily the dry herb category that grew as much as others.

 

[Farid]

As enthusiasts we also put a way bigger emphasis on flavor, which is why convection is so popular among us.

Big companies are designing for people who are used to smoking. For them, any vapor is going to taste better than smoke. What smokers need to get them to make the switch seamlessly is thick vapor density.

Because convection requires hot air to pass through the weed, the vapor density tends to "ramp up" upon inhalation. The densest part of the hit is generally in the middle of the hit versus right at the beginning.

Conduction on the other hand produces thick vapor more quickly, with the hit getting less dense over time. I think for smokers this type of vapor is more familiar.

And before anyone says convection is capable of dense vapor, I agree, it is. But the density requires a longer inhale than conduction. I've only ever been able to take a mouth to lung hit with a conduction or hybrid vape.

 

[acstorfer]

The innovations left to come may not be the vape designs and functions themselves, but the materials involved. Lighter and sturdier materials, future cell advancements and so on.

One thing I'd like to see tried is incorporating pulse technology that is used in the fluxer flite. It makes a substantial difference in heating a vapcap. Let's see how it does with direct herb heating. Instead of adjusting temperature, maybe it might work better adjusting the heating modulations?

 

[arb]

Most of the devices you listed are essentially on a constant back order though, which is pretty much my point.

The only one who is moving a lot of units is Dynavap and that’s because they understand designing at scale. TM has seen considerable improvements in lead time for direct orders over the last year, but none of their retailers have stock.

Setting up a production line is a great idea, assuming one can generate or source the capital to do so. But that’s typically a major challenge with the guys tinkering in their garage.




Hopefully, pending any further absurd legislation, the market will be bigger and better in a few years as more people grow to appreciate vaping! IMO vaporizing is way bigger than ever, it just wasn’t necessarily the dry herb category that grew as much as others.

From that guys perspective he is working and getting paid either way homie.
That is the aspect I think you are missing and sticking on.
While you may not gear up to a 1000 units a day at a 100$ price point you will still be working the same hours and probably making the same % of profit assuming you're not completely over the top........even then if its a complete lab set up someone is gonna buy it.

 

[Farid]

It always gets me how quick some of us are in our willingness to try new products, even when they have obvious flaws.

@arb 's lab setup comment really resonates with me, I was blown away that people are willing to buy a device that takes up so much space and looks so aesthetically unappealing.

I feel similarly when people say "just ignore the cup, the vapor quality is unmatched". The cup is central to the design, ignoring it is lying to ourselves. Not saying that it's wrong to prioritize vapor quality over aesthetics, but to imply like everyone should be able to do that is being dishonest about how most people buy products. There's a reason the PAX is so popular even though it's vapor isn't the best, and it's the look and feel of the device. Enthusiasts might be able to ignore that, but to your average user that's often their primary concern.

 

[jbm]

From that guys perspective he is working and getting paid either way homie.
That is the aspect I think you are missing and sticking on.

But that guy (if we're talking about the TM) may be working and getting paid, but he'd probably be getting paid more if he had designed to scale or had more of a plan in the first place. It's obvious to me that he's not looking to be a small batch artisnal producer like @Dan Morrison or @funkyjunky. One of the reasons that the 2 month delay in getting a TM was so annoying was the lack of transparency. There weren't any custom options, no decisions for the user to make, so why did it take so damn long to get one? The whole thing seemed very seat of the pants; there were going to be US retailers, then there weren't, sometimes you got customer service, sometimes you didn't. Whereas if you order from Dan or Ralph, you know what's going on. You know that it's going to take a long time to make. TM guy seems like he was intending on mass production from the get go, he just hadn't really thought about what that would entail. And even though the ship times have improved, that rep sticks. I can't tell you how many posts about the TM I see that start "I'd like to get a TM but I've heard bad things about the CS." How many people are there who didn't ask that question somewhere and just bought a Mighty?

 

[arb]

But that guy (if we're talking about the TM) may be working and getting paid, but he'd probably be getting paid more if he had designed to scale or had more of a plan in the first place. It's obvious to me that he's not looking to be a small batch artisnal producer like @Dan Morrison or @funkyjunky. One of the reasons that the 2 month delay in getting a TM was so annoying was the lack of transparency. There weren't any custom options, no decisions for the user to make, so why did it take so damn long to get one? The whole thing seemed very seat of the pants; there were going to be US retailers, then there weren't, sometimes you got customer service, sometimes you didn't. Whereas if you order from Dan or Ralph, you know what's going on. You know that it's going to take a long time to make. TM guy seems like he was intending on mass production from the get go, he just hadn't really thought about what that would entail. And even though the ship times have improved, that rep sticks. I can't tell you how many posts about the TM I see that start "I'd like to get a TM but I've heard bad things about the CS." How many people are there who didn't ask that question somewhere and just bought a Mighty?

There are lessons to be learned from every business model for sure........and he is still turning out vapes.

 

[jbm]

There are lessons to be learned from every business model for sure........and he is still turning out vapes.

Yeah, but at some point the enthusiast market will be saturated, and then the other aspects of the business he continues to neglect ("Word your support request in very simple English, and send it during business hours in Finland," are you effing kidding me) will mean that he's turning out unsold vapes.

 

[arb]

Yeah, but at some point the enthusiast market will be saturated, and then the other aspects of the business he continues to neglect ("Word your support request in very simple English, and send it during business hours in Finland," are you effing kidding me) will mean that he's turning out unsold vapes.

Then his business model will fail.
Adapt or die is how shit works it seems.

 

[cx714]

Then his business model will fail.
Adapt or die is how shit works it seems.

Hello capitalism!

Yes, everybody got what they wanted... but wait till they make it shinier. Or out of surgical grade stainless. Or with a unicorn horn airpath.

 

[BrianTL]

Then his business model will fail.
Adapt or die is how shit works it seems.

I tend to lean towards the adapting part for him I would think... to me it seems demand slowed down which, I'm sure was being driven by the niche customers like us, but it seems that has been slowing down to the point he can get orders out much quicker and get a better handle on his CS.

There will be a point where "we" have bought as much as we will, there will be a few orders trickling in from "us" talking to people, but eventually he will have to adapt to keep the income up.

Logical answer to me would be figure out a better & faster production system and actually get these things into the hands of some retailers. I still think this would is not only a great entry level vape, but it's also great for an experienced user.

If he was smart he would prepare for a significant increase in warranty issues before moving forward with any solid retail plan also

 

[invertedisdead]

From that guys perspective he is working and getting paid either way homie.
That is the aspect I think you are missing and sticking on.
While you may not gear up to a 1000 units a day at a 100$ price point you will still be working the same hours and probably making the same % of profit assuming you're not completely over the top........even then if its a complete lab set up someone is gonna buy it.

There's nothing at all wrong with craft built products, in fact as you point out they can have stronger margins without the expenses of a larger business. I was just suggesting the reason there isn't more mass produced "consumer product" style on demand vapes is really only a monetary issue. With lofty pockets, literally anyone could take over the portable convection market tomorrow. I think we don't see it happen often as there is simply other more lucrative investment opportunities in the cannabis space than hot air extractors.

There's a reason the PAX is so popular even though it's vapor isn't the best, and it's the look and feel of the device.

I think that has a lot to do with it, more people are definitely buying shirts for the logo than the comfort or material quality. Pax was definitely the first to try to be the Apple of portable vapes. But Pax is also popular from their vast distribution network. Even in my small town I’m within walking distance of a Pax, or a Yocan. I think Brick & Mortar smoke shops still do decently well, the lady who runs the one I get butane from says the guy who owns it has like 30 of these shops.

 

[jbm]

I still think this would is not only a great entry level vape, but it's also great for an experienced user

To an extent I agree, but that’s not going to happen until he improves QC, warranty and post sale service. The whole schtick starting with “buy a Torx #15 bit” ain’t gonna fly.

 

[His_Highness]

I have no sympathy for any manufacturer who fucks the customer. I don't care if they're just starting out or not.

If the homework turns up something like "Greatest XYZ ever but the customer service is horrible." I may continue to monitor the situation but I'm not diving in until I see 3 months or more of good customer service. I marvel at the vapes in FC where the majority of the customer base is being abused and documenting it .... but the customer's with a good working unit stick up for the manufacturer.....until their unit requires customer service and suddenly they see the light. There are plenty of threads like this in FC and I read many of them for entertainment.

I looked into the EVO and it started out with the most horrendous customer service history I have ever seen. After reading that initial history I decided to take a pass because any company that treated its customer's like that deserves to fail and most likely will. I'm looking for a vape not a relationship. Someone I highly respect suggested I read the thread backwards by date so I did and found that the EVO and the customer service had vastly improved for over 6 months. I bought the EVO and I'm glad but it doesn't change my viewpoint since they are the exception not the rule.

I can be mercenary about these things because it's just business. When I hear "they're good people, it's going to be a great product and they just got into a situation." I could give a rat's ass about anything other than the money I spent and the product itself....unless you're a relative or friend.

 

[Shit Snacks]

To an extent I agree, but that’s not going to happen until he improves QC, warranty and post sale service. The whole schtick starting with “buy a Torx #15 bit” ain’t gonna fly.

Well, I think he has improved all that, pretty much every vape here is a compromise of some sort... All the individual's perspective!

 

[BrianTL]

To an extent I agree, but that’s not going to happen until he improves QC, warranty and post sale service. The whole schtick starting with “buy a Torx #15 bit” ain’t gonna fly.

Yeah absolutely, kind of what I was getting at when I said if he was smart he would prepare for a significant increase in warranty issues lol. That also goes hand in hand with general operation questions, trouble shooting, "is this normal," "how do I clean" etc etc. By nature, the more units that are sold, the more questions and issues you will have.

I'd put money on probably 90%+ of TM customers finding out about it from one of the few vape forums, or reddit. If people are able to figure that out, they're able to look to these places for help with minor issues, and some major ones, and most importantly, help with communicating with manufacturer.

If these are on the shelves in your local smoke shop/dispensary/wherever they would be sold, chances the guy walking into the store is going to be aware of FC for example, are probably pretty slim. Those types of customers (100% understandably and reasonably) are going to turn to the manufacturer for any issues first, then the retailer, and then maaaaybe find their way here if it's still unresolved and they're googling "Tinymight issue" out of desperation.

But yes at the end of the day, seeing and experiencing their past issues, they would be foolish to not prepare for a massive increase of customer communications, and I'm sure retailer communications as well, before moving forward with any serious plans to increase sales.

 

[justcametomind]

Disposable vapes that work like reverse dry ice. You break the seal and the thing heats the cannabis content inflating a Volcano like bag.
This has still to be done.

The main thing I’m missing is that nowadays vapes are all proprietary devices and they all cost a lot. I hope that in the future some designs would go out of copyright and could be bought at a fraction of the cost or made diy.