Divine Tribe atty's

SubRosa

Well-Known Lurker
Set TCR memory M3 to 260, set unit to TC
using M3. I get better tracking ~ 260.

Set watts (during climb to temp) to 30 W.
A higher value will reach temp faster, but
will overshoot before the cup catches up.
I'm tempted to go back to 25W.

Allow 2-3 cycles to let it work up to temp.

Set target temp wherever, say 350 deg F
for low temp dabs, that's what they call "not
burning the stuff" nowadays.

This results in a top resistance of .362Ω

I have observed absolutely no overshoot at any wattage selected. From cold it takes about 10 seconds to hit .362Ω, but it is taking much longer than ten seconds for the rods to come up to usable temperature let alone the bucket, so I can't see how higher wattage would hurt. It would absolutely be the case with variable wattage, and I was interested to see that 20w itself topped out at .405Ω, but I really don't see any downside to getting to .360Ω as fast as possible.

Set the IR gun's Emissivity at .85, or leave at
default, and take your readings not at the
laser sighter's spot, because at close range
parallax makes that useless, but just put the
mouth of the IR gun right over the quartz cup.

IR Gun mode set to MAX, HOLD highest reading.

Swirl the IR gun a bit over cup the as you push
the button. That lets you capture temp all over
the cup.

If you're seeing temps within +/- 10 deg F of
the temp as set on the mod, you're doing great.

Great tip to ignore the laser pip and just put the sensor over the bucket. I don't know that my gun has adjustable emissivity, at least I wasn't able to find it easily. I found with these settings, I initially came to pretty stable 380F that did eventually climb to to 400F after a few minutes. Although I think my readings changed a lot depending on how close to the bucket my IR gun was.
 
SubRosa,
I received my Quartz Quest today in record time thanks to Matt's lightning fast service.

Thanks again, Matt.

What's the silicone ring for? I assume just to wrap around the cooling fins for easier removal when hot??

I have read some of the recent posts and all the talk of TCR but I usually just use wattage. Usually around 20 to 25w for my other rosin atty. I'll test some different settings.

Again.... thanks @divinetribe :)
 
Hackerman,

fernand

Well-Known Member
@SubRosa I don't know why you're even so interested in
resistance. The temp in the cup is what matters, isn't it?

It sounds like you got that working OK, 380 degrees ultimately
creeping up to 400 degrees + is right on, that works like a
charm for me. Tiny dabs that deliver 3 tasty rips that you can
hold down, just a light fog on the exhale (yeah, most of it
went right into the old circulation). Not a trace of dark gollum
drippings or microclimate pockets of decomposition.

If you observe a while we may come to agree on why too high a
climb wattage isn't very helpful. The cup temp isn't reflected in
the resistance of the heaters
, there's loose coupling and delay.

It goes back to control theory, a need for anticipation and smoothing,
or how you burn and freeze your butt off if you over-react on the
hot water knob in the shower. Or how you land an aircraft,
if you want to "grease in on" the runway and not bounce ;-)

On the gun, if you move the gun like a carb cap over the cup,
you'll see it's not just distance. I don't know how exactly
the infrared sensor reacts, but it's got to be quite directional
for the laser pointer to mean anything at all from greater
distance. So if you kind of "swirl" the gun over the cup, the
max reading picks up more of the regions on the cup.


Yo, @Hackerman I swear, if you take the time to dial in a good
Temp Control situation, you're not going back to Watts mode.

If nothing else, you can just push the button and let the CPU
in the mod do all the work. And you'll get twice the mileage if
not more. I see people teaching nubies that you don't have
to hold it down. It's pretty obvious that if you're blowing 3/4
of an inhalation out, you're only getting 1/4 of the meds,
it's not rocket science. And if you're heating the stuff up with
no Temp Control, the vapor is too hot and hurty to hold down.
If you "grease it on" with the heat, that gram goes a long way,
hundreds of tasty-no-wasty clouds of contentment.

Hey, the torch and nail people have figured out that if they
drop in a pre-loaded quartz insert into a hot banger, they get
a rising temp effect, I forget the acronym, a LOT more mileage
and tastier rips. You get all of that and more running a QQ in
temp control mode.

Hell, it's worth buying a couple to keep 'em loaded up with
a schmear in your coat pockets, for the fall season.

Matt, @divinetribe I propose you offer a discounted price to
existing customers if we buy additional QQs
so we can keep
several QQs locked and loaded for bear, out on the town.

I did get some V9 carts to try. Also got a fake 75W Pico on e-bay.
The menus are all FUBAR, it doesn't do TC correctly. Drat.
 
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looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
I received my Quartz Quest today in record time thanks to Matt's lightning fast service.

Thanks again, Matt.

What's the silicone ring for? I assume just to wrap around the cooling fins for easier removal when hot??

I have read some of the recent posts and all the talk of TCR but I usually just use wattage. Usually around 20 to 25w for my other rosin atty. I'll test some different settings.

Again.... thanks @divinetribe :)

The Silicone ring goes around the mouthpiece so there is a comfortable spot to pull it off when it's hot and you need to swab it and the bucket clean.
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
<<The Silicone ring goes around the mouthpiece
so there is a comfortable spot to pull it off >>

Good thing I didn't try any of the other applications
that came to mind ...
 

SubRosa

Well-Known Lurker
@SubRosa I don't know why you're even so interested in
resistance. The temp in the cup is what matters, isn't it?
I feel like my answer to this is pretty close to your reply to Hackerman. If the temp in the cup is all that matters, why care about any mod settings at all? Because they are a means to that end.

Of course it is the temp in the cup that matters, and five different profiles that all top out at a certain resistant will perform identically in terms of how the temp in the cup is achieved. That immediately cuts down the number of suggested profiles down dramatically in terms of figuring out how to get best use out of my new toy.
@SubRosa
If you observe a while we may come to agree on why too high a
climb wattage isn't very helpful. The cup temp isn't reflected in
the resistance of the heaters
, there's loose coupling and delay.

It goes back to control theory, a need for anticipation and smoothing,
or how you burn and freeze your butt off if you over-react on the
hot water knob in the shower. Or how you land an aircraft,
if you want to "grease in on" the runway and not bounce ;-)
My observations completely deny this! Temperature control is like knowing exactly what temperature you like your shower and going right there. A slower up ramp is like telling your shower I would like the water to be cooler than I would like for longer that is otherwise possible. I see no point in this. Not just in theory, but practically, I've tried everything from 25w to 60w with a profile that maxes out at .360Ω and the only difference is with the lower wattage I'm waiting an extra 30 seconds or so for the temperature of the cup to reach what I want it to be for it to be ready for me to draw.

I find absolutely no actual evidence of any overshoot or bounce on the runway in practice.
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
Hi, @SubRosa, again, resistance seems secondary, where did you get so focused on resistance? I don't think that "five different profiles that all top out at a certain resistant will perform identically in terms of how the temp in the cup is achieved". But if in practice, i.e, as measured in your QQ with a thermocouple in the cup, or an IR thermometer, you see no hunting whatsoever when using higher ramp up wattage, then great, you have an ideal system, you're OK, and that's that.

===============

If on your shower there are marked temperature positions you can "go to right there", it's what's called an "open loop preset system" and not a "closed loop control system with feedback". If it's repeatable, that's ideal.

On my shower, the state of the water heater and the water pressure on both hot and cold change a lot, so preset positions cannot repeatably "just go there". After I try a "go to" guess, I have to make corrections in response to feedback, i.e. how hot I can feel the water to be. If I don't do this gradually, if I don't allow for delay in the plumbing and water flow, if I quickly make full bore corrections, I end up "hunting", and I could theoretically oscillate between too hot and too cold forever ;-)

Closed loop control theory laid this out a long time ago. A good Proportional Integral Derivative (PID) controller has variables for setpoint, feed-back, feed-forward, gain, lag, deadband, etc.. After a few burns and freezes most everyone has figured all of that out for their shower. And steering a car. And a lot of other activities. We intuitively adjust how we control our muscles using feedback. And our bodies are one huge biochemical PID servo controller, including all our hormones, neurotransmitters - and our endocannabinoid system. And that's why we "care about mod settings at all", because that's what it takes.

With my 75W Pico, and perhaps more so with my eVic-VTC Mini, the TC is fair but not ideal. I can measure that it bounces around. That includes what you reported, namely the relatively stable period, and then the later phase's gradual mis-regulation to > 400 degrees.

The reason I set ramp up power to 25-30 watts rather than say 60 watts, is because by trial and error 1) I was getting less haphazard temp deviation that way during the "stable phase". Whenever the temp dropped, the controller would turn up the current and more heat would reach the cup, but with delay and offset. That's one reason newer Pico firmware has added a pre-heat phase with its own wattage. 2) personally I'd rather draw vapor throughout the temp rise than just at top temp, the way a quartz insert cup is used in a sophisticated banger rig, and 3) the later rise beyond the set temp seemed to happen sooner with higher ramp up wattage.

I don't have an ideal Temp Control system. But I'm managing OK too. I look forward to trying the Arctic Fox firmware and maybe seeing (and tuning) more of what's going on. In any case, welcome to this nest of maniacs, and Vape on!
 
Well, I will definitely have to try temperature mode because it is not great in wattage mode.

It is very beefy (good thing) but it takes me 3 sessions at 10 seconds each just the get the bowl heated up. Then, it stays hot for too long and overcooks the load.

Plus, heating it up that much really overheats the entire thing including the mouthpiece.

I am comparing this to my Motar quartz. I believe the Motar is much lighter weight. The good news is, it heats up and cools down very quickly. About 5 seconds for a preheat then a 10 second hit.

I will try to learn how to use one of my mods in temp mode.

What temp do I want to shoot for?

Thanks again
 
Hackerman,

KeroZen

Chronic vapaholic
@fernand: you talk about PID regulators but you're still on the stock crappy eLeaf TC implementation? (btw it's the same in the joyetech/eleaf/wismec trifecta they share the same chipset hence why AF can drive them all)

No wonder you're seeing overshoots, the stock implementation is just plain awful. It switches on and off at the max power that you set, that's all it does. As soon as you'll install AF (or my_evic derivatives) you'll see the applied power change smoothly and frequently (forgot the freq but somewhere between 10 and 100 Hz update rate)
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
@KeroZen yes, I know this about the stock firmware, that's little more than an on-off click thermostat type controller. I was illustrating different regulation modes for @SubRosa.

I'm still dealing with some "infrastructure issues" -- like totally fake Picos -- before I install AF.

I've grown lazy and run my big office PC in hackintosh mode, because e.g. the last reboot before the power outage last week was over 3 months ago. So what is there for AF that runs in MacOS?
 
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fernand

Well-Known Member
Hey @SubRosa now you're getting DEEP. 'Cause running WINE on MacOS is not my idea of a Friday night. Now, I can understand if you're running Linux (and still insisting there's LOTS of software for Linux), but on a Mac? That's the worst of both worlds. Or like running Window on a 186! When Windows was an overlay on DOS, they called it Windows 286 or something, and we the Unix guys would call in "Window" 'cause it only ran one thing at a time ;-)

How about running it in VirtualBox? I wouldn't expect a terribly real-time aspect to talking to a forking BATTERY! That's like singing opera to a shoe! I don't know anything about the software or connection yet, but I'd guess that VirtualBox would be good enough. No?

But, in a pinch, how about I reboot this machine and just select that odious alternative and run Windows 10? I hate to admit it, because Windows 10 is more of a marketing platform than an operating system, but once you strip out the spyware and advertising, and make the Start menu like God planned it, i.e. like it used to be in Windows 7, it's actually pretty solid, no, it's actually quite solid. Which, again, I hate to admit. But you do have to strip a lot o' stuff. Who's running Windows 10 here?

So, @SubRosa if you do the full AF first, tell me how it goes! Controllers-R-us. ... Talk about some shower regulation! ;-)

I've got more Picos than Liliput himself. All wrong, They going back. The last guy says oh feces, sorry about that, it's a new shipment, we need to show it to the vendor, please send it back! The previous one agrees they sent me the toad model when I ordered the little one, so they will just refund. Still waiting on that ... I'll never see another cute little Pico again unless I order a "Resin" that (I kid you not) they say "each one comes in its unique psychedelic pattern". I need more like an anchor than a psychedelic pattern at this point in the evening ;-)
 
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fernand,
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bizwaxzion

Enigmatic Cannabist
I have run the NFE tools in a windows 8 and windows10 VMs on both virtual box (linux) and vmware fusion (macos). Both were very simple to setup - with virtualbox on linux I had to ensure my account was a member of the vboxusers os group in order to passthrough usb devices to the VM.
 
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SubRosa

Well-Known Lurker
Who's running Windows 10 here?

So, @SubRosa if you do the full AF first, tell me how it goes! Controllers-R-us. ... Talk about some shower regulation! ;-)
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, all of my testing and results was on my VTC Mini running the latest ArcticFox. I run Windows 10, but the thread I linked has a downloadable script on the second page that seems to download and configure all the wine stuff for you, but I'm not actually a Mac person and can't say it worked for me or anything like that.
 
SubRosa,
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ta2zz

New Member
Bough a quartz quest as an after thought while buying a couple kits from HVT. Of course waiting the three days I was hyped seeing the reviews and videos on youtube. I get the unit and screw it to the top of my new 75w pico. reading the settings in the box and whats recommended by HVT being: Wattage 55-70w, Ni mode 310°f, TCR Value 470 using 60w to get to 300°f. I loaded a small bit and gave it a go.

Slow to get any vape, it was weak but tasty. Took off the top and cleaned out the bucket and to my horror one ceramic element turned dark brown! Only one... first dang hit...

Is it ruined already should I just order more parts from the makers site or am I just worrying too much? Thoughts? While I'm brand new to this I do follow instructions well.
 
ta2zz,

fernand

Well-Known Member
Welcome, @ta2zz

I dunno, people run them all sorts of ways, but I'd guess your values are
messed up. You can't use a TCR value if you're selecting Ni mode, and
you can't set an overall wattage either, so these values don't make much
sense to me. It could be the coil is toast. I'd contact Matt @divinetribe.

For your next round, set the Pico to TCR mode M3, and program M3 = 260.
That tells it to use that kind of curve in calculating temperature.
Then set the ramp-up wattage to 25 watts initially, and the target temp to
320. That tells it to aim for 320 degrees by putting out no more than 25
watts. Nice and easy.

Don't load any material, just try it out, it should be gradually getting warm
over 2-3 cycles of the button, but not very hot.

If you have an IR thermometer, check temp by putting the quartz
cup in the mouth of the IR Gun.

Otherwise put in a tiny dab and see how it goes.
Raise the target temp to 360 and try again. If you are impatient, and
thinking 20-30 seconds to vape is too long, you can try slowly raising the
ramp-up wattage: 30, 35. They call it ADJUST WATTAGE for the TC modes.
Page 5 or 6 of the manual. If you give it 60 watts that's what the Pico
will put out to catch up, every time the temp drops a bit, and that's IMHO
excessive. High ramp-up wattage = faster racing to target temp. More
change of frying things. Best success.
 

ta2zz

New Member
Thanks for the reply and detailed info. After a day of using my new top flow Sai atty I got to tinkering. After watching the video on the different parts involved I took the Quest apart and put it back together. Turns out the coil wasn't cooked but some product went and snuck down in there with the coil... 1st hit.

I will say I wish the builder at the factory followed the instructions to not cut the wires by over tightening the screws. Maybe they should watch the video for training? After some cleaning and getting the short wire to sit I got it back together and gave it another go. After watching another video about setting the pico for the Quest and was now running it on M1 300 50w 400F and got another good hit out of it. Seemed to take longer than 30 sec to produce vapor though. I swabbed it reloaded and watching my lady hit it I noticed the material tends to crawl out of the quartz cup no matter how small a piece I load.

So out of the box its fine but the wires were pinched to one being cut, it is now a shorty. The airflow design doesn't seem to work very well for me at all. Material shouldn't crawl out of the cup, This doesn't happen with the Sai bucket design. I'm thinking of drilling a second air hole in the mouthpiece to stop air from forcing this action. Happy tinkering eh? Otherwise the Ti Sai top flow is Da Bomb! it seems to hit much faster at a lower temp than the Quest.

~AL
 
ta2zz,
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looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
Thanks for the reply and detailed info. After a day of using my new top flow Sai atty I got to tinkering. After watching the video on the different parts involved I took the Quest apart and put it back together. Turns out the coil wasn't cooked but some product went and snuck down in there with the coil... 1st hit.

I will say I wish the builder at the factory followed the instructions to not cut the wires by over tightening the screws. Maybe they should watch the video for training? After some cleaning and getting the short wire to sit I got it back together and gave it another go. After watching another video about setting the pico for the Quest and was now running it on M1 300 50w 400F and got another good hit out of it. Seemed to take longer than 30 sec to produce vapor though. I swabbed it reloaded and watching my lady hit it I noticed the material tends to crawl out of the quartz cup no matter how small a piece I load.

So out of the box its fine but the wires were pinched to one being cut, it is now a shorty. The airflow design doesn't seem to work very well for me at all. Material shouldn't crawl out of the cup, This doesn't happen with the Sai bucket design. I'm thinking of drilling a second air hole in the mouthpiece to stop air from forcing this action. Happy tinkering eh? Otherwise the Ti Sai top flow is Da Bomb! it seems to hit much faster at a lower temp than the Quest.

~AL

Welcome!

IF you watch in a mirror you can see how the load reacts (like you did with your lady)... load small amounts, and do NOT hit hard.

That said. Look a little further back in this thread, there is a variation of the standard mouthpiece coming, it has an 18mm male joint (I can't remember if he's making a 14mm version) and incorporates 2 air inlets, which should hopefully create a venturi effect and scavenge rather than splatter. Plus, it's ready to plug into some nice glass for those who do better with water tools.
 

fernand

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the way the little tube blows right over the hot oil is not ideal.

First
suggestion: never put in more than a mini dab, try just a smear. Second: never suck fast, unless you like cleaning up wasted oil. Third: try to pull the glass mouthpiece/dome up on the base as far as it will hold, and tilt it a bit so the air hits less brutally at the hot oil. Fourth: don't be greedy. Oil vapor doesn't need to be like smoke to contain the actives. A mostly transparent vapor can be just as effective, and you won't be coughing it out -> more to the head. Fifth: don't be impatient. Any regulator works best with gradual changes, and will tend to overshoot the target and hunt up and down if the rate of rise is too high. That "wattage" setting in TC mode is not the steady wattage applied, it's the wattage it turns on to climb to the set temperature, so it controls the rate of rise. These Chinese TC mods are not exactly NASA precision, either. Start low, start slow, figure it out as you go. Use an IR thermometer if you can to calibrate. That's a handy tool to have if you work in concentrates ;-)

I look at the QQ as a precision delivery system, not a coughin' nail ;-) In practice it can deliver all the effects out of a tiny amount of oil, all smoothly inhaled and held a bit, the same as what many people get out of dropping over 0.100g on a searing Ti nail, where half is decomposed on impact, and a lot is lost to coughing and choking.

  • Imagine yourself on a desert Island with your vapes, a solar charger and just a couple of grams of tasty 75% THC oil. You gonna do gram dabs to impress the wildlife?
  • Think of the people starving in red states.
  • He who wastes not, gets wasted a lot.
I have a Top Air Sai with Ti bucket in da mail, looking forward to that too.
 
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divinetribe

We are trying our hardest to become Medical Grade
Manufacturer
Anyone have any suggestions as what use to lube the "O" rings on all these different atomizers?
I like using a tiny drop of ejuice to oil orings on the quest. On another note A couple of the testers noticed something about the v4 crucible prototype that was not ideal. So I made a another slight change and am now waiting for the new prototype. The release date has been pushed back now. how long? I think oct. . I can not release another atomizer with problems like the qq1 had so I need to fix these things. Basically the quartz cup was wobbly and it has now been made longer, we redisigned the base to allow the crucible cup to fit into a round sleeve. This will pretty much close off the donut from the air pathway completely. V3.5 will be out in a week or so. I will have a discount link for FC and Reddit people once they are in hand.
 
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