Crocodile and other Skins.........

[lwien]

So over in the DaVinci Ascent thread, it was mentioned that they are considering using Croc Skins on their vapes and someone piped in and said that if that was done, they, and probably others, would not buy an Ascent, any Ascent, if this was done.

So my question is, do others here feel the same way?

Without getting too Peta'd out, my take on this stuff is this. I, personally, have no issue, with people wearing leather or fur for clothing that will protect them from the elements, be they shoes, jackets, coats, hats, etc. In the same token with hunting, I have no issues for people who hunt and then consume what they kill for food. What I do take issue with are trophy hunters and people who buy leather, fur, and various skins as trophy accessories. I just find it absurd why anyone would want to put the head of a dead animal on a wall in their living room, as I find it almost as absurd why anyone would want to cover their vape in crocodile skin, but hey, that's just me.

Now if ya bring up belts and the bottom of PD's, the issue gets a bit cloudy, eh?

 

[t-dub]

I, for one, enjoy high quality leather. Horse hide is one of my favorites, its beauty and durability are legendary. Exotics are nice as well, as long as they don't contribute to "fashion slaughtering" Now, anyone who lives in Florida will tell you that alligators are not only a pest but a hazard, often eating household pets and sometimes children. They also replicate like rabbits and they are constantly being removed from peoples swimming pools, golf course water hazards, lakes, parks etc . . . there are legitimate sources for many types of hides that do not contribute to fashion slaughtering. Here is a quote from my favorite leather company, and a pic of the prize of my collection, made in America, that I wear with pride

http://www.lostworldsinc.com/index.html

ARE HORSES ACTUALLY KILLED TO MAKE THESE JACKETS?
Absolutely not. We're animal lovers. No horse was ever killed for its hide, thank goodness. It's the cheapest part of the animal. Left over. Processing and tanning the hides is where the money goes. When one wears a Lost Worlds Horsehide jacket you're making good ecological sense, taking advantage of a forgotten, unused but inimitable resource, while paying tribute to the noble horse, keeping it alive in memory as it continues to serve us. In a small way we're contributing to the natural continuum. That's right, wearing horsehide is ethical. It puts one in touch a bit with where we came from. It doesn't participate in fashion slaughtering at all.

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[Ape With A Vape]

I completely agree Iwien. Although it won't deter me from purchasing, it is pointless and I do not like it.

 

[kushcabbage]

I want a croc skin.. will go nicely with my stuhrling

 

[Harry Vapes]

I understand animals are slaughtered anyway, is it better that animal hides be 'put to use' rather than totally wasted? Yes, I think so. If it has a practical application then at the very least it is serving a purpose. If it's purely aesthetic though I just think it's totally unnecessary, vulgar and disrespectful to the animal.

What does that say about us as a species that we think so little of our fellow earthlings that we chop them up and decorate our vaporizers with them? I think we should strive to move away from using animal products. I personally choose to not support any product that is derived from or exploits animals in any way. It's unjustifiable in my eyes, there are other alternatives, both natural and man made that don't exploit animals and are generally better for the environment.

The reason it would deter me from purchasing it, even if it was hands down the best vaporizer the world had ever seen, is because I care more about the issue of animal welfare and our current relationship with animals than I care about having the latest vaporizer.

It may seem insignificant to some, but I choose to vote with my money and not have anything to do with these practices.

edit: and I'm sorry t-dub, but that mostly sounds like marketing crap to me. You could apply the same reasoning to a Big Mac and claim you are honouring the memory of the noble cow.

Surely it would be best to just leave animals alone, not slaughter them for their meat nor any other body parts and use alternative materials?

 

[Globbs]

I wonder how many stoners were thinking "man, if only I had a crocodile skin vaporizer"
That wouldn't draw attention especially if your looking for stealth. Lol

 

[t-dub]

edit: and I'm sorry t-dub, but that mostly sounds like marketing crap to me. You could apply the same reasoning to a Big Mac and claim you are honouring the memory of the noble cow . . . Surely it would be best to just leave animals alone, not slaughter them for their meat nor any other body parts and use alternative materials?

So you wish for a vegan world, thats cool. Look, I'm not running around putting leather on a vape, wouldn't support that, and I'm not making jackets out of unicorns either. Most of the horses slaughtered for meat, well that meat goes to Europe, so talk to them about the consumption. So its not marketing bullshit, the hides are there, and imho a jacket that can protect my life in a serious spill, with the quality and craftsmanship that LostWorlds uses, providing a jacket that will outlast me, well to me that is correct use. Now do I want someone making a lampshade out of me after I'm gone? Not sure, I'm thinking about that one now. But please don't try to wish for a world without a food chain or similar aspects, because that is a pointless exercise. I consider trophy hunting to be fashion slaughtering and I would never take another beings life for sport.

And your Big Mac analogy falls short. Eating the beef already produced for food, and creating demand for that meat, is different then using, instead of wasting, its already produced hide. Don't want to raise animals to have them murdered for food? Fine, don't eat meat. But don't call the usage of otherwise wasted hides "marketing crap" because it isn't in this case.

 

[lwien]

What does that say about us as a species that we think so little of our fellow earthlings that we chop them up and decorate our vaporizers with them?

It could be worse.

Talk about mixed feelings. When I first saw this, I was like... Then I was like... And then..... And then.......... And then........... (kinda felt guilty for laughing)

 

[Harry Vapes]

Like I said. I would rather their hides are put to use rather than just wasted, that makes sense to me. I would prefer however they weren't killed to serve our needs, or rather wants, in the first place. I am not wishing for a world without a food chain. That is clearly ridiculous. But as humans, who have already been responsible for so much suffering and destruction on this planet, and seeing as we can function just fine without using animals, it seems needlessly cruel to continue in this way.

I really think the world would be a better place if we turned our back on the meat industry. Indeed, there would also be huge benefits environmentally.

 

[t-dub]

and seeing as we can function just fine without using animals . . . I really think the world would be a better place if we turned our back on the meat industry. Indeed, there would also be huge benefits environmentally.

This sounds like a great thread topic Harry, definitely debatable I can see it now, the "Is Meat Murder?" thread. You can use the poll function and take a vote, I would be interested in the result.

 

[madnezz344]

I wonder how many stoners were thinking "man, if only I had a crocodile skin vaporizer"
That wouldn't draw attention especially if your looking for stealtgh. Lol

good one

 

[Ape With A Vape]

When I said it wouldn't deter me from buying I meant the ascent in general. I would just refuse to own the Croc skin one, though I hope they just decide not to go through with it all and I'm sure they will. I think with it being a vaporizer, the use of real skin would lose them more business than it would gain them.

 

[lwien]

... the use of real skin would lose them more business than it would gain them.

Yeah, I agree. Being that the color options and plating options are just endless, I just don't see the need.

 

[SD_haze]

To be fair, animal leather has been on vapes for a while now.
The bottoms of a lot of log vapes!


Though my rockzap though has an acrlyic fabric bottom, I think most of the retail ones had a leather bottom.

 

[lwien]

To be fair, animal leather has been on vapes for a while now.
The bottoms of a lot of log vapes!


Though my rockzap though has an acrlyic fabric bottom, I think most of the retail ones had a leather bottom.

Ya but that's kinda different. It was more of a functional part of the vape. It was on the bottom.

Buying a Croc skined vape is another thing. It's like......a trophy/vanity skin on your vape.

Now logically, from the animals point view, who gives a fuck, right? But for some odd reason, I do. It just doesn't sit quite right.

I'm not passing judgement on those that like it (well........maybe a little), but it's just not right for me.

 

[kushcabbage]

Ya but that's kinda different. It was more of a functional part of the vape. It was on the bottom.

Buying a Croc skined vape is another thing. It's like......a trophy/vanity skin on your vape.

Now logically, from the animals point view, who gives a fuck, right? But for some odd reason, I do. It just doesn't sit quite right.

I'm not passing judgement on those that like it (well........maybe a little), but it's just not right for me.

same thing as having hide on a nice watch, or entirely made from a nice purse. Bling my man, all about the bling. How about this iphone case, just there to show it off. Only way I like my stingray is when it's leather. http://www.exoticleather.biz/large_views/exotic_leather_iphone_cases/iphone4_cp09_black.htm

 

[lwien]

same thing as having hide on a nice watch, or entirely made from a nice purse. Bling my man, all about the bling. How about this iphone case, just there to show it off. Only way I like my stingray is when it's leather. http://www.exoticleather.biz/large_views/exotic_leather_iphone_cases/iphone4_cp09_black.htm

See, I look at that and think.............man, that's just fuckin' wrong.

 

[Harry Vapes]

I don't really like labeling myself as a vegan, as such. I have come to my current position as a product of my own thinking, I haven't just blindly signed up to a particular belief. I am right now by definition a vegan though. Although I haven't been for very long at all. I feel like a LOT of people would become at least vegetarian if they gave it enough thought. And that's just it, most people prefer to simply not think about it and will actively avoid properly educating themselves on the subject. That's how I was for most of my life, but in the back of my mind I think I always knew it was wrong (based on my own principles).

I cannot justify killing an animal for food or any other reason. I don't think anyone else can either really.
I appreciate society wouldn't be where it is today without modern farming methods and arguably without eating meat at all. We've moved far beyond having anything like a symbiotic relationship with our environment and animals in particular though. There is no balance, we enslave entire species and bend them to our will, it's good to see that free-range is gaining in popularity but we'd still be better off if we all went vegetarian, or at the very least if we cut down our meat consumption. Also free-range is more often than not still a far cry from a natural environment and life.

So maybe this is moving away from the OPs original question but I do believe it's all tied in. I don't like to be too preachy about the subject unless someone directly asks me about it. Like I said, this is a choice I've come to very recently after a lot of thought. If you had asked me about veganism 10 years ago I may well have given some immature response about bacon.

I am positive that within 100 to 200 years we will view the way we treat animals now as barbaric and primitive. We can already grow meat in a lab from a few cells, however I believe at present it doesn't beat the real thing, particularly in terms of texture. This technology will progress though and I'm sure that before long this will be how almost all meat is produced.

Perhaps the issue does deserve its own thread as this is primarily concerning byproducts such as leather. Although the two issues are linked I'm sure there are meat eaters who object to people wearing fur and crocodile skin for their own reasons. It would be interesting to see the results.

 

[djonkoman]

my first thought was no. but reading trough the posts, it's a bit more complicated.
I'm not against leather, or meat in itself. I do however think we should live together with, instead of against, nature more. we're a species that can readily form symbiosises, but we should be aware of becoming parasites.
I love meat, and I think that seeing our place in the ecosystem, we shouldn't stop eating meat. however, it would do us well to make sure the animals had a good life, everything is used, and we should also limit the human populationnumbers to make sure we can keep eating meat while coexisting with all other organisms.
in the case of demesticated animalsthat are killed for their meat, or happen to die for other reasons, I have no objection to using the skin for leather, it would be wastegull to nt use it.
the same for animals that are hunted, although in that case hunting shouldn't be excessive, and the meat should be eaten, so not just hunting for fur but ony leather/skin as byproduct.

since crocodiles only live in zoos here, I see crocodiles as nondomesticated animals that are likely to be illed just for their skin. so therefor I would object to it.
however if these crocodiles die anyway and the skin is a byproduct, the case is a bit different.
however if these crocodiles are killed justy because they're a nuisance/danger to people, eventhough the crocodiles inhabited the area befiore humans ever came there, I would also be against it, in that case I think those people living there should ether learn to live with the crocodiles(in a way where the crocodiles arent on the bad end of the deal), or leave.

at the moment I still don't live up to all my own opinions btw, but I want to grow/breed most of my own food in the future.
the most ethic meat I eat is from my dad's goats, he keeps goats and has youngs every year, the females get sold, and the males go to the butcher. same with the chickens btw(but without the butcher)
but next to that I also still eat 'regular' supermarketmeat

but I feel the same about vegetables, I would like to grow my own, because I like growing plants ad so I can ensure that it's organic, and not a lifeless monoculture. plenty of bugs in my vegetablegarden, but most don't harm the plants, some are very usefull. and not only bugs, in summer there are also loads of toads and some frogs. and ofcourse birds a bit farter away chirping in the trees as I'm tending the garden, and bats flying over in the evening(probably sleeping in those same trees during the day)

 

[lwien]

---we'd still be better off if we all went vegetarian, or at the very least if we cut down our meat consumption.

Strictly from a health perspective, that statement cannot be argued.

I am positive that within 100 to 200 years we will view the way we treat animals now as barbaric and primitive.

I agree because I firmly believe that sometime in the near future, and I think that it's a lot closer than 100 to 200 years, we will discover how intelligent animals really are, that they communicate, that they emote, that the ONLY reason we think ourselves as superior is our lack of ability to communicate and understand, and because of that, we lack empathy. But fuck, the exact same things happen within our own species when religion and ethnicity, and yes, even politics comes into play, and yet, we consider ourselves as the most intelligent species on the planet?

But there is a flip side to this coin. I've never gone hunting, but I have gone fishing and I can attest that when I consumed something that I recently hunted (fished for...), and killed, there is a certain, very primal satisfaction that arises that is hard wired into our DNA. It is obviously apparent.

 

[fake name]

I cannot justify killing an animal for food or any other reason. I don't think anyone else can either.

.

What about less sophisticated societies where meat is needed for protein and the only way to get meat is hunting? What about a man lost in the woods away from society?

Also, plants are alive too, so is it ok to murder them? What if in 200 years we find out that most the intelligence in the planet is possessed by vegetation, and animals turn out to be just as smart as we now think?

I guess my real questions are: is it justified for a human to kill and consume to survive, or keep their children alive? And, is it anymore justified to kill a plant instead of an animal if the reason to not kill animals is conjecture of their intelligence?

 

[Harry Vapes]

What about less sophisticated societies where meat is needed for protein and the only way to get meat is hunting? What about a man lost in the woods away from society?

Also, plants are alive too, so is it ok to murder them? What if in 200 years we find out that most the intelligence in the planet is possessed by vegetation, and animals turn out to be just as smart as we now think?

I guess my real questions are: is it justified for a human to kill and consume to survive, or keep their children alive? And, is it anymore justified to kill a plant instead of an animal if the reason to not kill animals is conjecture of their intelligence?

I should have been clearer, but that is aimed at people in western societies. I don't have a problem with more primitive societies such as Amazonian tribes that live in harmony with their environment, and occasionally eat meat as part of their diet.

If I was to find myself lost in the woods and could not survive by other means then I think I would kill another animal to survive, if it came to that.

I think the difference between plants and animals is that plants are not conscious beings. They don't have a brain, they do not feel pain, there are no studies to show that they do. If in 200 years we find that plants are more intelligent than us, yet all other animals are far less intelligent than us (which is what you are suggesting if I'm not mistaken?) I think that is extremely unlikely, so much so that I'm not sure it's even worth debating. I think by then our methods of food production and consumption will be so drastically different to how they are today that we would have better alternatives anyway. If that was the case though and we couldn't survive by other means, then I guess the most humane course of action would be to slaughter animals and leave plants alone. We can't survive on animals alone though so we would have to kill these magical super intelligent plants anyway.

If it's a case of survival, and if there aren't alternatives then it is justifiable to keep ourselves alive. That is a basic driving factor of life. The point is though, we do have a choice, and right now we are choosing not only to eat meat, but to eat it in massive quantities, far more than could ever be argued was natural or healthy. Often in a cruel manner, and at considerable expense to the environment.

 

[treeman]

I've got nothing against a croc skin vaporizer, I wouldn't rock it, its not my style but I'm all for use of hides versus synthetic oil based fabrics.
Some seriously cool shit is made out of hides, reindeer skin boots, Fuckin bangin! warm, flexible, practical, kept indigenous people going for years.
Frankly, I would prefer it if people chose to wear more natural hides as oppose to synthetic polymers, probably causes less harm all round.
Obviously, in this case, it is a bit unnecessary but I'm all for more use of animals. Round here you can order crocodile meat, hide has to go somewhere?

 

[fake name]

My point was that you conjected about animal intelligence and us being wrong about what we know. What if we are wrong about plants not being conscious, what if we don't truly understand the nature of what is conscious? How can you justify conjecture about animals as a reason to not harm them but not take the argument to all that which is alive?


Also, you speak of the animals emotions. What about crocodiles, that do not have the part of the brain that processes emotions? Is pain a bad thing for them, if there is no emotional attachment, or is it simply a biological feature to make them avoid that which causes damage? Is it more justifiable to kill an animal without emotions than one with emotions?

I'm not actually getting to anything, just trying to progress the conversation. I am open to the idea that conciousness is not understood, and could be many things. I agree with the avoidance of cruelty to animals. Honestly, I may just be vaped.

 

[Harry Vapes]

Sorry, can you expand on 'wrong about what we know' with regards to animal intelligence? I'm not quite sure what you are referring to.

I accept that it is an extremely complicated topic on many levels and I don't pretend to have all the answers. From what we know, consciousness is a product of the brain, and therefore plants are not conscious.

Can you link to any literature supporting that reptiles do not have emotions? From what I've read it would seem they perhaps don't have quite the same range of emotions as mammals, or that their experience is somewhat different to ours, but not that they are completely devoid of feeling or emotion. It's hard to research because if you google anything to do with reptilian consciousness you just get all that David Icke shit come up about evil reptilian overlords.

Lets take jellyfish as an example, I would say they are not conscious, or at least not in the same way a salmon, dolphin or horse is. Does that make it more justifiable to farm them or kill them for our own needs? I would say yes. However it would be best to just let them do their own thing in the wild and appreciate their majesty without interfering.

I embrace science, I am skeptical and always willing to reconsider my viewpoint on anything in light of evidence. It is most certainly a grey area, we obviously don't have all the answers with regards to consciousness but that is only part of the reason or my stance on the farming of animals.

I don't think anyone could argue that eating meat has any benefits other than 'it tastes nice'. Health benefits are as far as I can tell negligible to non-existent given modern technology and the plethora of foods available to us. On the other hand a vegan lifestyle has definite, scientifically proven benefits with regards to impact on the environment, and that alone makes it worthwhile to me.

I feel that as long as animals are being killed for their meat, we should make use of the whole corpse and not waste a thing. On the other hand, using animal hides for furniture, jackets or fashion is perpetuating the idea that killing animals for our own gain is ok, which I don't believe it is. I know I just contradicted myself, I will admit I am unsure as to what the best course of action is regarding the issue.

It's taken me quite a while to write this post as you have provoked me to think about the topic and do some further research, so thank you. I feel like I could structure the whole thing better and maybe put a better argument together but I really need to get to bed now.