Crocodile and other Skins.........
- Thread starter lwien
- Start date
VaporEyeSore
Active Member
if it has no function it is not necessary.
Yes, the purpose of the skins is purely aesthetic and probably unnecessary, but so are leather belts, shoes, purses and watches. We debated heavily on this subject...and still are. I figured that there would be some out lash regarding the use of any real skins..especially in this industry. There are some really nice synthetic skins out there where you can't even the difference.
I was actually hoping that this discussion would start, as personally I am very Pro-Animal rights...eat cage free eggs, only drink grass fed milk, volunteer at the animal shelter, and don't eat red meat unless it was hunted by my husband. I don't agree with the way that "domestic" animals are raised, stockaded or slaughtered.
So, based on a poll here, would you guys prefer that we use synthetic skins, rather than either leather pressed into the croc look, or real skin? The beauty of being in pre-production right now is that you guys have a voice in this.
I was actually hoping that this discussion would start, as personally I am very Pro-Animal rights...eat cage free eggs, only drink grass fed milk, volunteer at the animal shelter, and don't eat red meat unless it was hunted by my husband. I don't agree with the way that "domestic" animals are raised, stockaded or slaughtered.
So, based on a poll here, would you guys prefer that we use synthetic skins, rather than either leather pressed into the croc look, or real skin? The beauty of being in pre-production right now is that you guys have a voice in this.
VaporEyeSore
Active Member
when medicated I dont really want to be reminded of my own mortality because something has died to make my vape look nice.
I am not vegetarian and wear leather shoes and belts. But to add to your previous statement as far as I am concerned the only belt is a leather belt. I have use fake leather and other synthetic materials but none have lasted. However I have leather belts that are over 20 years old. I dont think a vape really needs this level of durability.
I am sure there are other materials that will do fine. Infact I had such an issue with my PD's leather that I took it off and replaced it with a nice 100% wool green baize felt and am much happier for doing so
I am not vegetarian and wear leather shoes and belts. But to add to your previous statement as far as I am concerned the only belt is a leather belt. I have use fake leather and other synthetic materials but none have lasted. However I have leather belts that are over 20 years old. I dont think a vape really needs this level of durability.
I am sure there are other materials that will do fine. Infact I had such an issue with my PD's leather that I took it off and replaced it with a nice 100% wool green baize felt and am much happier for doing so
lwien
Well-Known Member
So you really think that adding either real or synthetic look-a-like skins would spur sales? As I said before, there are sooooooo many other color and color pattern options that could be available for you, why even entertain skins or look-a-like skins? Do you think that not having skins would hold back a potential sale?
Zokk
Member
Personaly I wouldn't put a serious manufacturer who wants a "cool" (or call it "special") look for his products in the same range as the meat or fur industry.
That croco skin looks really rock'n roll to my eyes, I like it. That's not so common in the vape products to dare such a look mixing modern technology with pure old school rock'n roll attitude.
Sometimes I wear leather boots, leather jackets, leather belts... synthetic stuff has simply not the same mojo and durability. However for a vape gear I don't mind if it's organic or synthetic (unless the fake one is not healthy of course).
The real question for me really is where do they got the skins? how are they produced?
That croco skin looks really rock'n roll to my eyes, I like it. That's not so common in the vape products to dare such a look mixing modern technology with pure old school rock'n roll attitude.
Sometimes I wear leather boots, leather jackets, leather belts... synthetic stuff has simply not the same mojo and durability. However for a vape gear I don't mind if it's organic or synthetic (unless the fake one is not healthy of course).
The real question for me really is where do they got the skins? how are they produced?
No, I don't necessarily think that it will spur sales just because it has the appearance of a croc skin, snake skin or whatever, it's strictly for design and texture. In the comment above, Zokk mentioned that it looked very rocker and that's what were going for in this design. Yes there are many design...endless ones actually, we and our consumer insight group, just happened to like this one when we were going over designs. Our goal is to have a design that fits every demographic for this model.
Wood- old school
Black- high tech crowd, more modern
Croc- Female demographic
Do you think leather seats spur the sale for BMW's?
I'm not a vegetarian, but I am sympathetic to vegetarianism for its non-violence philosophy. Animals deserve respect and should be treated humanely. Also as Harry Vapes mentioned, I don't think that we in the affluent west actually need meat. I think it causes more problems than it solves, healthwise. It's also a disaster environmentally. I know many will disagree with this, but I'm not interested in arguing about it here. People get overly emotional about this subject and have trouble remaining objective.
Having said that, I'm not too concerned about croc skin in particular. Maybe I'm a vindictive arsehole, but as far as I'm concerned, any species that kills humans can go to hell. Here in Australia people are eaten alive by crocs every year, and I find this unacceptable. Same with sharks, venomous snakes etc. Hunt 'em to extinction I say and make the world a safer place for humans.
I've never understood the need for leather on the bottom of the log vapes. It was about 3 or 4 years ago when I got my PD, and I was fortunate to get the last "vegan" model ever made. There is no leather on the bottom, just a beautiful wood base. I agree with VaporEyeSore that I don't want to be reminded of death when I vape. I've taken it a step further with my Hot Pod, as it is made from a pod that falls from a tree, so the tree itself is never damaged. I have also shunned the use of beeswax and instead use hempseed oil as a finish. I wanted to create a product that has a good vibe about it and avoids unnecessary exploitation and suffering.
On the other hand I was always happy to wear leather when I rode motorcycles. There is something carnal about it and somehow they seem to go together - notions of speed, adrenaline, and death. A knife with a bone handle also makes sense, and so on. I hope this makes sense.
Having said that, I'm not too concerned about croc skin in particular. Maybe I'm a vindictive arsehole, but as far as I'm concerned, any species that kills humans can go to hell. Here in Australia people are eaten alive by crocs every year, and I find this unacceptable. Same with sharks, venomous snakes etc. Hunt 'em to extinction I say and make the world a safer place for humans.
I've never understood the need for leather on the bottom of the log vapes. It was about 3 or 4 years ago when I got my PD, and I was fortunate to get the last "vegan" model ever made. There is no leather on the bottom, just a beautiful wood base. I agree with VaporEyeSore that I don't want to be reminded of death when I vape. I've taken it a step further with my Hot Pod, as it is made from a pod that falls from a tree, so the tree itself is never damaged. I have also shunned the use of beeswax and instead use hempseed oil as a finish. I wanted to create a product that has a good vibe about it and avoids unnecessary exploitation and suffering.
On the other hand I was always happy to wear leather when I rode motorcycles. There is something carnal about it and somehow they seem to go together - notions of speed, adrenaline, and death. A knife with a bone handle also makes sense, and so on. I hope this makes sense.
1_gr8_underdog
Trapped in the Astral Planes Back from the dead
SoulCaptivesAreFree
Hazemaniac
I love the vegan/animal-discussion!
It's quite funny to see humans fight with so much passion and pathos for arbitrary boundaries/lines
you can't live without animal products, you need vitamin B 12, which you can't get any other way. The cultures that live "vegan" for a long time only could do so because the hygiene in those cultures is so poor that people consume enough non-vegetable organisms with their vegetables because they don't wash and treat it like we do. that's a tasty fact of life
Sorry but this is so ignorant it's not even funny...
i eat meat very, very consciously (i eat 60% vegetarian, 30% vegan and 10%meat products) and i have no problem with the fact of animals being killed for my meat-consumption, or even killing it myself if it would be necessary - that's the way the world works
plant life is life too you know - where do you draw the line between what's conscious enough to not be eaten and what not? it's really arbitrary, there have been studies showing that the same type of chemical reaction that goes on in animals/humans when they feel pain is going on in some vegetable when it's thrown in boiling water.
The way that people and cows live together for thousands of years has led to cows that give milk all the time, not only when nursing. These cows experience pain when they are not molken, it is in their genes now. This type of thing is called symbiosis in biology. Symbiosis works as long as both parties profit from it.
And here lies the only important point imho: HOW it is done, and not IF it should be done. If the animal is treated with respect - in life as well as in death, there is no problem.
Now the modern meat-industry is of course the exact example of how it should not be done - can't argue that, so watch what you eat! (same for any not animal-derived food really)
i wouldn't buy a croc skin-vape myself, but if the material is there because the animals get killed anyhow (and how can you blame somebody for killing a predator that could eat their siblings when it gets in reach of said sibling) why not use it? it's only logic and ecologic...
It's quite funny to see humans fight with so much passion and pathos for arbitrary boundaries/lines
you can't live without animal products, you need vitamin B 12, which you can't get any other way. The cultures that live "vegan" for a long time only could do so because the hygiene in those cultures is so poor that people consume enough non-vegetable organisms with their vegetables because they don't wash and treat it like we do. that's a tasty fact of life
Sorry but this is so ignorant it's not even funny...
i eat meat very, very consciously (i eat 60% vegetarian, 30% vegan and 10%meat products) and i have no problem with the fact of animals being killed for my meat-consumption, or even killing it myself if it would be necessary - that's the way the world works
plant life is life too you know - where do you draw the line between what's conscious enough to not be eaten and what not? it's really arbitrary, there have been studies showing that the same type of chemical reaction that goes on in animals/humans when they feel pain is going on in some vegetable when it's thrown in boiling water.
The way that people and cows live together for thousands of years has led to cows that give milk all the time, not only when nursing. These cows experience pain when they are not molken, it is in their genes now. This type of thing is called symbiosis in biology. Symbiosis works as long as both parties profit from it.
And here lies the only important point imho: HOW it is done, and not IF it should be done. If the animal is treated with respect - in life as well as in death, there is no problem.
Now the modern meat-industry is of course the exact example of how it should not be done - can't argue that, so watch what you eat! (same for any not animal-derived food really)
i wouldn't buy a croc skin-vape myself, but if the material is there because the animals get killed anyhow (and how can you blame somebody for killing a predator that could eat their siblings when it gets in reach of said sibling) why not use it? it's only logic and ecologic...
1_gr8_underdog
Trapped in the Astral Planes Back from the dead
1000% disagree
I think that it should be as durable as possible since they are not cheap items to posses
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
VaporEyeSore
Active Member
Maybe you need to look after things better
1_gr8_underdog
Trapped in the Astral Planes Back from the dead
I try but only partial function in my hands holding things are a task sometimes. That is what is scary for me for this new one. But I can definitely vouch for durability on original Da Vinci. I know I better than doubled the drop test not @ 6ft more like 4ft and under (from my chair). Not on purpose. Finish is worn slightly but it has not brokenMaybe you need to look after things better
I couldn't be happier with it and look for great things to continue to be produced by the team at Da VinciHarry Vapes
New Member
I love the vegan/animal-discussion!
It's quite funny to see humans fight with so much passion and pathos for arbitrary boundaries/lines
you can't live without animal products, you need vitamin B 12, which you can't get any other way. The cultures that live "vegan" for a long time only could do so because the hygiene in those cultures is so poor that people consume enough non-vegetable organisms with their vegetables because they don't wash and treat it like we do. that's a tasty fact of life
Sorry but this is so ignorant it's not even funny...
i eat meat very, very consciously (i eat 60% vegetarian, 30% vegan and 10%meat products) and i have no problem with the fact of animals being killed for my meat-consumption, or even killing it myself if it would be necessary - that's the way the world works
plant life is life too you know - where do you draw the line between what's conscious enough to not be eaten and what not? it's really arbitrary, there have been studies showing that the same type of chemical reaction that goes on in animals/humans when they feel pain is going on in some vegetable when it's thrown in boiling water.
The way that people and cows live together for thousands of years has led to cows that give milk all the time, not only when nursing. These cows experience pain when they are not molken, it is in their genes now. This type of thing is called symbiosis in biology. Symbiosis works as long as both parties profit from it.
And here lies the only important point imho: HOW it is done, and not IF it should be done. If the animal is treated with respect - in life as well as in death, there is no problem.
Now the modern meat-industry is of course the exact example of how it should not be done - can't argue that, so watch what you eat! (same for any not animal-derived food really)
i wouldn't buy a croc skin-vape myself, but if the material is there because the animals get killed anyhow (and how can you blame somebody for killing a predator that could eat their siblings when it gets in reach of said sibling) why not use it? it's only logic and ecologic...
And I have no problem with you or anyone else eating meat, I never said it wasn't natural (quite the opposite), it is a personal choice. If you choose to pay more for meat that has been responsibly farmed then good for you.
What you say about cows is false. Yes, modern day cows produce more milk than is necessary to feed a calf, but they are inseminated and give birth every year (or sometimes every two years). They would not produce milk otherwise. It's hardly a symbiotic relationship, would you like to live like that? Do they know any different? Perhaps not, but that doesn't make it right.
I'm sure you can find many chemical similarities between animals and plants but the difference is that an animal has the ability to suffer, a plant does not (covered this on the previous page I believe). If we can live in a way that minimizes or avoids human inflicted animal suffering entirely then surely that is the best option?
For me it is a question of 'if', not 'how' because we have the technological to survive without using animals in such a way.
lwien
Well-Known Member
Did ya ever think what would happen to our environment and to our food chain if you hunted predators like sharks to extinction? The domino affect is unknown, but could prove to be disastrous. From everything that I have read, most all living things, be they animals or insects, are part of a delicate balance of nature and just because some of them may be harmful to humans, totally getting rid of them could prove even more harmful to humans in the long run.
I think nature would rebalance itself. It has undergone far more drastic events than losing a few species, and species are going extinct all the time. Also, amongst sharks, crocs, etc there are many species that are not man eating, and I don't advocate killing those.
From Wikipedia: "The modern veal industry has strong connections with the dairy industry. To produce milk, cows must be lactating, and to be lactating, they must get pregnant and give birth."
This is correct. Furthermore, those calves are removed from their mothers so that they can be slaughtered for veal. I used to own land in a dairy farming area and I have camped there when the vealers were taken away. I could actually hear the cows "crying" very loudly at night. They make quite a racket.
From Wikipedia: "The modern veal industry has strong connections with the dairy industry. To produce milk, cows must be lactating, and to be lactating, they must get pregnant and give birth."
This is being disingenuous. You have obviously never slaughtered anything yourself. Go and kill a cow (not the coward's way with a gun), and then go and pull up a carrot. You're going to tell me that you feel absolutely no difference performing these acts? If so then you are a very strange person.
lwien
Well-Known Member
ALL predators are man eaters, or potential man eaters. Are you also suggesting that we eradicate all the big cats as well? How 'bout the most dangerous animal in Africa to man, the Hippo. Would you want to eradicate those as well? How 'bout Rhino's?
Eradicating a whole species based upon their danger to man, especially when the presence of that danger is in control by man, is, imho, the height of..............naw, I can be issued an infraction if I say what I really want to say.
Oh............here's something interesting:
And there's the rub. If you take out one species, it only allows another species or more to multiply totally unchecked and if that happens, what else can happen?
And yeah, nature will balance itself out. The question is, where does that new "balance" leave us in the whole scheme of things. It's pretty self-indulgent to think that it would work out all in our favor because in nature, we are just another species, nothing more, nothing less.
Eradicating a whole species based upon their danger to man, especially when the presence of that danger is in control by man, is, imho, the height of..............naw, I can be issued an infraction if I say what I really want to say.
Oh............here's something interesting:
And there's the rub. If you take out one species, it only allows another species or more to multiply totally unchecked and if that happens, what else can happen?
And yeah, nature will balance itself out. The question is, where does that new "balance" leave us in the whole scheme of things. It's pretty self-indulgent to think that it would work out all in our favor because in nature, we are just another species, nothing more, nothing less.
There is a BBC documentary that debunks the idea of the ecosystem. I don't know if it's on youtube but you can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_(TV_series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Watched_Over_by_Machines_of_Loving_Grace_(TV_series)
SoulCaptivesAreFree
Hazemaniac
sorry for spreading misinformation about the cows, i picked that up from a relative who is working in the agricological sector and never questioned it...
nevertheless the relationship between cows and humans is at least partly symbiotic - there would be a lot less cows without humans domestizing them...
I never said i feel indifferent about it, i said i feel it's the way the world works!
i have never slaughtered myself, yes. But i have killed fish and looked them in the eye and seen the spark of life going away and ate them afterwards. Also have watched a pig getting slaughtered in RL and heard its screams and smelled its blood - i think i have an idea of what it means to eat meat
and maybe the act of pulling a carrot feels a little different than killing an animal, but what about that poor rabbit that starves because all the vegans eat their carrots? it's just not a simple black&white question - if you want to live you have to fill a niche, by filling that niche you prevent others from filling it and "make them suffer"
you can't avoid making the world suffer for your live (in my perception plants can suffer as well, on a different level of course, a level a bit further away from human consciousness) you can only minimize suffering - for me that's the question HOW you do things, not IF ...
But as long as we're talking about ethics of the DV - the DaVinci products are assembled in asia if i recall correctly? how much does a worker that assembles your vapes earn per day? are they organized in unions? do you pay any kind of social insurance for them?
edit: here's somehting that changed my view on humans and their relation to their animal-food:
can't recommend BBC's human planet enough - really mindblowing
nevertheless the relationship between cows and humans is at least partly symbiotic - there would be a lot less cows without humans domestizing them...
I never said i feel indifferent about it, i said i feel it's the way the world works!
i have never slaughtered myself, yes. But i have killed fish and looked them in the eye and seen the spark of life going away and ate them afterwards. Also have watched a pig getting slaughtered in RL and heard its screams and smelled its blood - i think i have an idea of what it means to eat meat
and maybe the act of pulling a carrot feels a little different than killing an animal, but what about that poor rabbit that starves because all the vegans eat their carrots? it's just not a simple black&white question - if you want to live you have to fill a niche, by filling that niche you prevent others from filling it and "make them suffer"
you can't avoid making the world suffer for your live (in my perception plants can suffer as well, on a different level of course, a level a bit further away from human consciousness) you can only minimize suffering - for me that's the question HOW you do things, not IF ...
But as long as we're talking about ethics of the DV - the DaVinci products are assembled in asia if i recall correctly? how much does a worker that assembles your vapes earn per day? are they organized in unions? do you pay any kind of social insurance for them?
edit: here's somehting that changed my view on humans and their relation to their animal-food:
can't recommend BBC's human planet enough - really mindblowing
lwien
Well-Known Member
They believe that everything they take from the forest, they have to give back."
And we look at them and say that THEY are primitive?
ShipDit
1%
If nature doesn't want me to eat animals why are they so delicious?
We as a people need some animal products,that's just a fact. It's also a fact that some animals need us to survive. And as long as the animals we use are not tortured,brutalized or made to fight to the death for our amusement I'm cool with that.
Unless we're talking about spiders. Fuck them! They are all poisonous,all carnivores and are just all-around assholes. And they live in our houses. Sometimes at night I hear them talking. They have plans for us. Since the Wife has a new no tolerance rule about gunfire in the house it's just a matter of time until they make their move. There are 8 legged,8 eyed monsters living in my fucking house and I'm not allowed to shoot the anti-semetic bastards! My Wife will actualy catch them and gentlly put them outside. What kind of message does that send? Does she not know that they will be back,probably with friends?
You doubt me now,but when the spider apocalypse begins you'll be begging for my stockpile of Raid and spider-seeking ammo.
Sorry I drifted off topic but....fuck spiders.
We as a people need some animal products,that's just a fact. It's also a fact that some animals need us to survive. And as long as the animals we use are not tortured,brutalized or made to fight to the death for our amusement I'm cool with that.
Unless we're talking about spiders. Fuck them! They are all poisonous,all carnivores and are just all-around assholes. And they live in our houses. Sometimes at night I hear them talking. They have plans for us. Since the Wife has a new no tolerance rule about gunfire in the house it's just a matter of time until they make their move. There are 8 legged,8 eyed monsters living in my fucking house and I'm not allowed to shoot the anti-semetic bastards! My Wife will actualy catch them and gentlly put them outside. What kind of message does that send? Does she not know that they will be back,probably with friends?
You doubt me now,but when the spider apocalypse begins you'll be begging for my stockpile of Raid and spider-seeking ammo.
Sorry I drifted off topic but....fuck spiders.