Child birth is gross and I think very ugly
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Deleted Member 1643
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Well, at least you're entertained. That's the point, but now it's someone else's turn to propose an entertainingly absurd opinion.
IME, a comical antinatalist thread does exist in current veganism. Know a surprisingly high number of vegans with various tubes tied. (One even threw himself a "no-baby" shower upon returning from his vasectomy.) Most are fine with others having children, but some take themselves too seriously. One vegan friend who committed the sin of parenthood found herself shunned by some of our number. Made an extra effort to support her, but must admit, found it just as comical to watch her contortions as she compensated with an otherwise exemplary low-impact lifestyle.
There, you have all the ingredients.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
That's the spirit and with AV for bonus points - BRAVO! Suspect @OldNewbie has an overly organized file of memes for every occasion.
Sadly, parted ways with the vegan mom over an unrelated issue. She was a devout athiest and didn't appreciate the constant needling over the superiority of agnostic deism. Ah well...
Sadly, parted ways with the vegan mom over an unrelated issue. She was a devout athiest and didn't appreciate the constant needling over the superiority of agnostic deism. Ah well...
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Seemed petty to quibble with such a thoughtful post, but if you insist...
There's a saying the Lakota used to cheer themselves before battle: Nothing lasts but the earth. They no longer battle, but would they still say that?
One can always find reasons not to bring children into the world, but maybe the world isn't the same as always. Maybe our time really is without precedent and makes new demands of us. Are those demands to have even more babies, as Senator Mike Lee of Utah suggests? Are they the Green New Deal he opposes? Are they burying one's head in the sand and praying for the sweet release of death before things get even more dire (a personal favorite)? Something else?
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arb
Semi shaved ape
I think I all of you espousing the vegan,no children moral high ground should put your money where your mouth is.
Your presence here is a drain on resources no matter how you live.
You cannot exist without taking life be it animal or vegetable throw in some afterlife stories and my question to the purported believers is,why are you still here?
Myself.........if I believed the shit you claim to...........I would mercy every person I know.
Care to help a cracker obtain some understanding and explain it.......slowly cuz I ain't too sharp.
Your presence here is a drain on resources no matter how you live.
You cannot exist without taking life be it animal or vegetable throw in some afterlife stories and my question to the purported believers is,why are you still here?
Myself.........if I believed the shit you claim to...........I would mercy every person I know.
Care to help a cracker obtain some understanding and explain it.......slowly cuz I ain't too sharp.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
Myself.........if I believed the shit you claim to...........I would mercy every person I know.
Care to help a cracker obtain some understanding and explain it.......slowly cuz I ain't too sharp.
We don't always get to do what our philosophies tell us. We live in community and recognize, sometimes, our individual ideas must take a back seat to the ideas of the whole when in conflict. Even if we think the community wrong.
Take abortion. (Please.)
For me it is a fundamental issue. One that weaves through many life issues from the start to the finish. If I believe it is a horrible wrong society will some day realize is as bad or worse than slavery, am I a hypocrite if I don't go around busting the kneecaps of all who provide the "service"?
This is the danger when we have lone wolf believers in some cause like life, religion, environment or most anything--the lack of a check on our thinking. It is reasonable (In that you can reason to the result, not that it is correct.) for one who thinks abortion murder to murder those who commit it? It is reasonable to torture non-believers if they don't convert as, otherwise, they will suffer eternally? It is reasonable to pour sugar in everyone's gas tank as the CO2 the vehicles emit will KILL US ALL!!! It is reasonable to hate those who voted for a person different from the one I did because, can't they even see how EVIL he is???!!!
We all are a little crazy about something. While "peer pressure" is used as a negative action when trying to keep kids off pot, it also helps to keep us in line as well. It's tough to be embarrassed if there is no one who knows what you did.
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
To be or not to be? From thinking childbirth is gross, we've arrived at one of life's great questions.
Suppose the short answer is obligations. Still have a few, some things can't be rushed. Admittedly, another cop out.
During an especially dark time, a friend counseled to stick around to see how bad it can get. As good an answer as any.
Let's see... fear of death, a mountain of Prozac...
Ah, got it - perspective! An early childhood memory is watching Neil Armstrong walk on the moon on a snowy black-and-white TV. One can be forgiven for perceiving life as going downhill from there. But for many, most in fact, the opposite is true.
Nothing better to lift spirits than one of Nicholas Kristof's annual features.
Why 2018 Was the Best Year in Human History!
By Nicholas Kristof
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arb
Semi shaved ape
So............platitudes and nonsense when confronted yet zero hesitation to assert superiority over others who choose to be more honest in their philosophical approach to life?
Seems a lot like the legislator outlawing a plant with a drink and a cigar in hand.
The holy man condemning your eternal soul to hell while he fucks children and steals from the poor.
Seems everyone needs someone to hate..........that is gross and I think very ugly.
Seems a lot like the legislator outlawing a plant with a drink and a cigar in hand.
The holy man condemning your eternal soul to hell while he fucks children and steals from the poor.
Seems everyone needs someone to hate..........that is gross and I think very ugly.
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Perspective is hardly a platitude. It can always be counted upon to come to the rescue. Let's try again.
At a recent concert, the composer Fang Man was asked at which period of history she would most liked to have worked. The Baroque with Bach, the Classical with Mozart, the Romantic with Schubert, etc? Without hesitation, she said "now". At no other time could a Chinese American woman be a celebrated composer. She might reasonably think that this is also a good time to raise children. Can't argue with that.
No superiority has been asserted, others' perspectives are equally valid. And understanding the truth of that is the best medicine when one's own perspective is dark.
just_the_flu
they say im crazy but i have a good time
...i don't understand how having children is selfish... as a parent i can say it's the least selfish thing i've done... everything i do is for those fucken kids...
...it is selfish to have kids and neglect them... but that's not a large percent...
...it is selfish to have kids and neglect them... but that's not a large percent...
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
If human life has no value and subjecting one to human life is sentencing them to pain, then what is the reason for having children?
As the great Gustave Faubert wrote in "November" (No, I haven't read it or heard of him before either--although I have heard of his Madame Bovary.):
“He seriously thought that there is less harm in killing a man than producing a child: in the first case you are relieving someone of life, not his whole life but a half or a quarter or a hundredth part of that existence that is going to finish, that would finish without you; but as for the second, he would say, are you not responsible to him for all the tears he will shed, from the cradle to the grave? Without you he would never have been born, and why is he born? For your amusement, not for his, that’s for sure; to carry your name, the name of a fool, I’ll be bound – you may as well write that name on some wall; why do you need a man to bear the burden of three or four letters?”
just_the_flu
they say im crazy but i have a good time
...i feel sad for people who actually think human life has no value... they can't possibly be happy... just cuz those people feel their lives have no value doesn't mean the same for all... and really, if humans lives have no value, than no other life on earth does either... THIS PLACE MUST BE HELL!!!!!
...all life has value for existence, that's why it's in existence... like i said i feel really sorry for those who think this way...
...all life has value for existence, that's why it's in existence... like i said i feel really sorry for those who think this way...
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Perhaps an overly provocative word choice. The point was that these days, those who can choose to have children do so mainly for themselves. @TiSteamo provided needed perspective by pointing out that most people who have children don't choose.
Imagine it's because they want to enjoy the experience of raising a family. Without a doubt the most profound experiences we can have, as @ClearBlueLou described so touchingly. Reason enough. No one's asking anyone to deny themselves those experiences. But that motivation could still be called selfish (self-interested might be less provocative).
There could also be less selfish motivations. The world may look like an increasingly dense press of frightening crowds to some, but it's not like that everywhere. One can easily imagine smaller communities of people suffering from having too few children among them.
Don't think it makes sense to do it for the (imagined) children themselves, who don't yet exist, but it doesn't necessarily follow that there's less harm in killing someone. To whom is the quote addressed? (It's cool to dig Flaubert, @OldNewbie.)
Please don't feel sad. "'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be."
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TiSteamo
VAPEnsiero... sull'ali dorate...
@Accept
The problem is not that we are too many.
The problem is this economic system: wealth is not evenly distributed.
To say that we are too many is the thought of power.
Which is based on inequality and inequity.
As for births, every child born is a choice.
Maybe not programmed, but if a woman decides to give birth to it, it is always a choice.
The problem is not that we are too many.
The problem is this economic system: wealth is not evenly distributed.
To say that we are too many is the thought of power.
Which is based on inequality and inequity.
As for births, every child born is a choice.
Maybe not programmed, but if a woman decides to give birth to it, it is always a choice.
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
You're preaching to the choir about redistributing wealth. Are you advocating global socialist revolution? (Calm down, just raising eyebrows.)
Sorry for misunderstanding, but happy to concede that different people have more or less say over whether they have children, for any number of reasons (access to contraception, etc.).
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TiSteamo
VAPEnsiero... sull'ali dorate...
No, I'm talking about justice...
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
So, if wealth were distributed more fairly, the world could support a larger population of humans at an adequate standard of living without threatening the environmental conditions upon which we all depend?
Of course, that adequate standard of living probably means an end to our collective fantasy about being apex predators, along with driving to our important jobs every day and jetting around the globe at the drop of a hat.
Still, it's worth a try, like our Green New Deal. But can we bring everyone, everywhere on board in time? Clearly, people need to be prepared for such comprehensive change.
Some of us are working toward that in our individual lives by not eating animals, switching to alternative energy sources, etc. Showing others that it's not so bad, they might even like it.
Maybe something else we can consider is forgoing families, at least those of us for whom it's not a hardship. (Don't forget, we can always foster or adopt to satisfy some of our needs and those of children who already exist.) While not required, doing so is entirely consistent with those other changes some of us have already made.
And if the Green New Deal (or whatever you have in mind) works, people will be happier. Happy people make babies. How many more billion will it take before our problems return, even if everyone in the world lives simply?
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Tranquility
Well-Known Member
I want to be on the committee that decides what is a "fair" distribution.
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
The defense rests.
Time to get a deposit down on some beachfront property in Iowa.
His_Highness
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king
We are all carnivores in my family and that includes every generation of in-laws and out-laws that I know of. We have all had our children born in hospitals since hospitals were a thing. And.......
I am over the moon to report that yesterday my second grandchild was born without issue while I was taking care of my grandson so that everyone else could be at the birth.
In this house......It's a glorious day to be a selfish group of re-producers that greedily uses the resources the earth provides to continue doing the same.
Another way to say it is...... just like the Grinch my heart has expanded exponentially......
I am over the moon to report that yesterday my second grandchild was born without issue while I was taking care of my grandson so that everyone else could be at the birth.
In this house......It's a glorious day to be a selfish group of re-producers that greedily uses the resources the earth provides to continue doing the same.
Another way to say it is...... just like the Grinch my heart has expanded exponentially......
arb
Semi shaved ape
I suggest the novel approach of hard work,drive and opportunity in a non corrupt system.........pretty sure that has not actually been tried.
I am gonna go give my son's some shit cuz I wanna be greedy and privileged too........lolz.
Congratulations on your success as a human being........I wish you many,many more.
I am gonna go give my son's some shit cuz I wanna be greedy and privileged too........lolz.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
In YOUR lifetime? Not a chance even under the most pessimistic guesses. (I mean, calculations.)
Are you talking about your children's or your children's children's lifetime? If so, isn't it gross and very ugly?