Cannabis News

Jimmyweaese

Well-Known Member
I can't help but wonder what might be the effect of legalizing cannabis in towns that have a severe opioid addiction problem. Research has shown that for some pain patients opioid consumption has been significantly reduced with cannabis use. I would think this might be an effective effort to reduce opioid use for at least some addicts whose addiction is still pain related...

There are just so many things that could be tried if Cannabis could just be legalized...
I've been waiting 45 yrs. Just got into my states made program. Got a marijuana solution,should have checked bag. I had wanted tincture. Also a pre filled vape pen . So far for as many puffs I've had I'm surprised how long ,at least for me,,the oil is lasting.
 

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
According to reports issued by Attorney General Maura Healey’s office, 189 of Massachusetts’ 351 municipalities have banned cannabis businesses.
That is one of those likes that are just an ack, not really a like. Looks like Mass's anti community is pretty strong for a state that passed legalization. I'm a little surprised given how liberal Mass tends to be. I hope this isn't a common response to legalization.

For those states legalizing because they need the money (like Illinois is likely to do) this could end up very disappointing. I don't expect Illinois to have quite the anti community that Mass seems to have, however, and may be more resistant to the haters...

Partially because they/we need the money so badly.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
Marijuana legalization could help offset opioid epidemic, studies find

States with medical marijuana had 2.21 million fewer daily doses of opioids prescribed per year. Additionally, opioid prescriptions under Medicaid dropped by 5.88% in states with medical cannabis laws.

Meanwhile our Attorney General believes marijuana CAUSES opioid addiction. Because he is a plain idiot.
Such studies are certainly very important to getting the concepts across to the politicians. However, because of the method and measurements, there is nothing but speculation as to why less prescriptions were written in medical marijuana states.

One reason might be that some pain centers drug test patients before prescribing and during treatment.

Guess how many opioid prescriptions are written to those who test positive for cannabis?

Being that I know people denied because of cannabis usage, Imma gonna guess it's less. If so, the study points out to a problem in the minds of doctors in regards to opiates and/or cannabis and not some positive pain-treatment factor due to cannabis.

As to the jug-eared little man that seems so scary to some, he's been in office a year. What concrete steps have been taken at the federal level to hurt medical marijuana patients? States are the ones cracking down now--especially in the "legal" states were tax collection revenue seems the motivator. Compare and contrast with actual actions taken by the previous administration.

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-conten...cy-and-Presidential-Leadership_Appendix-1.pdf
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
One reason might be that some pain centers drug test patients before prescribing and during treatment.

Guess how many opioid prescriptions are written to those who test positive for cannabis?

Being that I know people denied because of cannabis usage, Imma gonna guess it's less. If so, the study points out to a problem in the minds of doctors in regards to opiates and not some positive pain-treatment factor due to cannabis.

No. They looked at EVERY prescription written for opioids, not just from pain treatment centers. In legal States, ALL opioid prescriptions went down. Not sure why you're trying to explain this away. You seem to also be denying that cannabis could be an effective pain relief option which is incredible to me, given the site we are on.

As to the jug-eared little man that seems so scary to some, he's been in office a year. What concrete steps have been taken at the federal level to hurt medical marijuana patients?

I didn't say Jeff Sessions is scary. I said he's a fucking idiot. His claim that marijuana use leads to opioid addiction is laughable on its face. And now the actual evidence seems to suggest the opposite of his dumb claim is true.
 

C No Ego

Well-Known Member
News- in cannabis legal states Alcohol sales down.... Pharma sales down either from drug screening as @OldNewbie mentioned ( great correlation BTW) or people choosing to try and medicate with cannabis instead while having at least some type cannabis legal access ( social acceptance) etc...

either way it will take time to know for sure
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
News- in cannabis legal states Alcohol sales down.... Pharma sales down either from drug screening as @OldNewbie mentioned ( great correlation BTW) or people choosing to try and medicate with cannabis instead while having at least some type cannabis legal access ( social acceptance) etc...

either way it will take time to know for sure

Prescriptions for all opioids decreased by 3.742 million daily doses per year when medical cannabis dispensaries opened. Is there any evidence millions of people are being "forced" into medical cannabis because of Physicians drug testing?

In any case, if marijuana use CAUSED opioid addiction as the leader of the Justice Department claims, wouldn't we see the opposite result?
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
Marijuana legalization could help offset opioid epidemic, studies find

States with medical marijuana had 2.21 million fewer daily doses of opioids prescribed per year. Additionally, opioid prescriptions under Medicaid dropped by 5.88% in states with medical cannabis laws.

Meanwhile our Attorney General believes marijuana CAUSES opioid addiction. Because he is a plain idiot.
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And after states implement medical cannabis programs, deaths from prescription painkillers are down 24.8%, an astounding figure during this epidemic. Some initial stats show that might rise to 30% reduction in RX painkiller deaths.

Best case is cannabis in place of other painkillers, when appropriate. Next best is supplementing the RX with cannabis, in order to reduce the amount of RX painkillers.
Opioids are certainly necessary in some cases, just no where near the level of current use.

I had prev posted the study showing that cannabis in sub-therapeutic levels plus opioid in sub-therapeutic levels, equals pain management greater than the sum of the two (synergistic effect together).
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
No. They looked at EVERY prescription written for opioids, not just from pain treatment centers. In legal States, ALL opioid prescriptions went down. Not sure why you're trying to explain this away. You seem to also be denying that cannabis could be an effective pain relief option which is incredible to me, given the site we are on.
I'm not "denying" anything. All I'm doing is pointing out this study is not as useful as you think it is. Also, if you look at doctor's guidelines for prescribing opiates, you'll find that testing for cannabis is recommended. I only used a pain center's actual policy as I have personal knowledge of a denial as an example.


I didn't say Jeff Sessions is scary. I said he's a fucking idiot. His claim that marijuana use leads to opioid addiction is laughable on its face. And now the actual evidence seems to suggest the opposite of his dumb claim is true.
The attorney general was basically a senator for life after getting his law degree and becoming an assistant U.S. attorney and state attorney general.

He is not an idiot.

Saying that he is prevents people from trying to understand his arguments. I know the foolish will find there is no need to understand the other side's argument when they know for a fact they are right. The thing is, I suspect the "idiot" can better state YOUR position than you can state HIS. Throwing out an unrelated insult
seems more virtue signaling and an appeal to emotions than something that can convince enough people to come to our side to win this fight once and for all.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
--Sun Tzu
 

florduh

Well-Known Member
I'm not "denying" anything. All I'm doing is pointing out this study is not as useful as you think it is. Also, if you look at doctor's guidelines for prescribing opiates, you'll find that testing for cannabis is recommended. I only used a pain center's actual policy as I have personal knowledge of a denial as an example.

Fair enough. But opioid prescriptions went down by several million per DAY. If millions of people were being "forced" to use medical cannabis over opioids because of drug testing, where is the evidence of that? News articles? Isn't it just as likely that patients simply choose cannabis over opioids? I have personal knowledge of many folks who have done just that.

Additionally, if cannabis wasn't doing the job for patients.... they'd get their hands on opioids one way or another. But deaths from opioid prescriptions are also significantly down in legal States.

In any case, if cannabis use CAUSED opioid addiction as Sessions claims, we would see the opposite result. This study proves that claim wrong.

He is not an idiot.

Yes he is. Anyone who claims cannabis causes opioid addiction is an idiot. Full stop. Regardless of his politics.

The thing is, I suspect the "idiot" can better state YOUR position than you can state HIS.

Given his stupidity about cannabis causing opioid addiction, I tend to doubt it.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. But opioid prescriptions went down by several million per DAY.
It is casual reading of the facts like this which is part of the problem.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2676999
Findings This longitudinal analysis of Medicare Part D found that prescriptions filled for all opioids decreased by 2.11 million daily doses per year from an average of 23.08 million daily doses per year when a state instituted any medical cannabis law.​

If millions of people were being "forced" to use medical cannabis over opioids because of drug testing, where is the evidence of that? News articles? Isn't it just as likely that patients simply choose cannabis over opioids? I have personal knowledge of many folks who have done just that.
I understand what you think the study means. But, the studies don't claim that.


Limitations
38 In addition, using our state-level aggregation, we cannot examine substate heterogeneity in the association. Perhaps the association between opioid use and cannabis access differs for rural compared with urban areas, areas with larger compared with smaller minority populations, or in areas that are medically underserved compared with areas with adequate clinician resources. Third, hydrocodone was upgraded to a Schedule II controlled substance in 2014, although since our data only go through 2015 we cannot determine if any of the change in use we observe was due to rescheduling. We do not have separate measures of the price of each drug paid by Medicare patients, which should affect utilization (although it is unlikely to be correlated with state MCLs, given Medicare reimbursement rules). Fourth, because we examine the association between MCLs and opioid prescribing in Medicare Part D, we cannot directly address the effect that cannabis laws may have on opioid use among other populations. Fifth, we only observe prescribing by drug name, and so we cannot convert daily doses into an intensity measure like morphine milligram equivalents.​

All parts of studies have to be read and understood to be useful. Not just the portions we like. (Aka "cherry picking".)

Given his stupidity about cannabis causing opioid addiction, I tend to doubt it.
I suspect he actually has read and understands the studies. He's just cherry picking the parts he agrees with.

A good summary ("Good" because it links to a bunch of studies.) of what we might be able to claim from current understanding and what we cannot is at http://thehill.com/opinion/healthca...a-is-a-treatment-for-opioid-addiction-without
Ecological studies add another dimension. One study demonstrated a lower rate of opioid overdose deaths in states that have implemented medical marijuana laws, but it did not find a clear connection between such laws and the rates of opioid overdose deaths among those with opioid use disorder. Another analysis reported a relative decrease in opioid overdose deaths in states that permit medical marijuana dispensaries.

Yet drawing inferences about causality is impossible from such data, including the specific impact on individuals with opioid use disorder. A recent study using epidemiologic data found a strong prospective association between cannabis use and subsequent opioid use and opioid use disorder. The authors raise the possibility that “the recent increase in cannabis use may have worsened the opioid crisis.”
 
Tranquility,

Mulchmaker

Veni Vidi Vapi
The thing is, I suspect the "idiot" can better state YOUR position than you can state HIS.

I assure you, with great confidence, that he cannot. Sessions may not be an "idiot", but he is absolutely a bitter, ill-informed, dogmatic control freak. The sooner he's out of power, the better for America.

Anyone who claims cannabis causes opioid addiction is an idiot. Full stop. Regardless of his politics.

Don't forget "good people don't use marijuana"--a laughable claim so easily refuted by empirical observation that uttering it is prima facie evidence of idiocy.
 
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florduh

Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie Two simple questions:

1) Do you pick apart every article that's posted in this thread, or just the ones that could plausibly paint a member of the current Administration in a negative light? Based on the past few pages of this thread, I think it's the latter.

2) Do you honestly think that there's even a remote chance that cannabis causes opioid addiction as Jeff Sessions claims? I know a lot of cannabis users. Can't name a single one who said they got the urge to switch to Oxy.

I suspect he actually has read and understands the studies. He's just cherry picking the parts he agrees with.

LOL. Jeff Sessions isn't reading any "studies" to inform his opinions. He hates marijuana, so he said something stupid linking marijuana to opioids.

And I'm not "cherry picking" anything. I simply shared a paper from The Journal of the American Medical Association. If you have an issue with their study, take it up with them. I also did say Jeff Sessions is a fucking idiot, but this is a cannabis fan site so I didn't think that would be controversial.
 

MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
I also did say Jeff Sessions is a fucking idiot, but this is a cannabis fan site so I didn't think that would be controversial.
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I don't want to classify Sessions as an idiot, as it sort of gives other idiots (through no fault of their own) a bad rep ;)
Definition of idiot
: a person affected with extreme mental retardation
: a foolish or stupid person
...............................................
Some or all of these are just "there". Can you cure "foolish"?

Sessions is much worse than an idiot. He's likely to be technically "very smart", yet he's also one of the most ignorant persons there is on cannabis. And the worst part is that he has absolutely no/none/zero/nada interest in learning the tiniest bit of info about cannabis. With the info that is out there today, he's WAY WORSE than an idiot, he's a bury-your-head-in-the sand kinda guy who thinks he knows everything.

I have my own definition for this type of person, he' s a "the earth is flat person". I just know it is flat, period.
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
@OldNewbie Two simple questions:

1) Do you pick apart every article that's posted in this thread, or just the ones that could plausibly paint a member of the current Administration in a negative light? Based on the past few pages of this thread, I think it's the latter.
You are the one who tried to make a connection between the study and Sessions. They are completely unrelated and seem an attempt to politicize the issue for some reason.

2) Do you honestly think that there's even a remote chance that cannabis causes opioid addiction as Jeff Sessions claims? I know a lot of cannabis users. Can't name a single one who said they got the urge to switch to Oxy.
Yet, we have studies that suggest that. Don't you believe in science?

That's the problem. If the other side picks and chooses which studies to use and which parts of the studies they use, then I suspect them of intentionally misrepresenting the truth for their nefarious ends.

The same as when our side does so.

I just want our side to be a bit better than theirs.

LOL. Jeff Sessions isn't reading any "studies" to inform his opinions. He hates marijuana, so he said something stupid linking marijuana to opioids.

And I'm not "cherry picking" anything. I simply shared a paper from The Journal of the American Medical Association. If you have an issue with their study, take it up with them. I also did say Jeff Sessions is a fucking idiot, but this is a cannabis fan site so I didn't think that would be controversial.
I have no issue with the study. I like it as it reduced the power of a general argument against legalization. It's just that it is an extremely minor advance in understanding. We already have much of this data from other studies. Read a little. I provided a link where you can get a summary of many studies on the issue with links to the studies themselves.

As to the gratuitous insult to Sessions that continues, it is a part of the nasty attitude of many on the left to demonize people who disagree with them. When the other side is evil, stupid, racist, worthless or etc. rather than wrong, thinking stops and sides get chosen. Something we have discussed in other threads. I think that's why so many ghettoize where they interact. They read the proper papers, they watch the proper tv, they use the proper social media and they talk only with people who agree with them because it makes them more comfortable.

Comfort makes people think they are right without going through the work of actually being so.
 
Tranquility,

florduh

Well-Known Member
You are the one who tried to make a connection between the study and Sessions. They are completely unrelated and seem an attempt to politicize the issue for some reason.

You are on a cannabis fan site. Not liking the guy who claims we are all "bad people" isn't "political".

Yet, we have studies that suggest that. Don't you believe in science?

ONE study claims a statistical link in Colorado showing a slight increase in opioid use. Most other studies show that legalization reduces opioid use and deaths. Looking at the preponderance of evidence is how science works.

In any case, Sessions is at least a little premature in claiming that marijuana use leads to opioid abuse, no?

In a recent article, the Conservative/Libertarian site "Reason" listed 6 studies that say the reverse of Jeff's stupid claim. https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/07/jeff-sessions-says-opioid-addiction-star

Personally, the wacky weed has never made me want to start popping pills. I can't believe we are going back to the silly "gateway drug" theory.
 
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MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
Regarding studies: Having read hundreds and hundreds of studies the "body of evidence" is pretty damn clear on cannabis, for those that put in the effort to really look. And that's just the studies as history and anecdotal evidence etc are also important.

FYI, I'm not on either "side"----I'm on the side of "the truth about cannabis" . When I first started to check it out, my stance was-- is this medical (marijuana) stuff just a bunch of BS to get mj OR is there really something to it (but I went into it with an open mind). Sessions has arguably the world's most closed mind title.... I'm an independent---neither Pres candidate earned my vote in last election.

It gets more clear every day that it's not BS. Look at the history of research: until recently almost all studies were really intended to find out "how bad" cannabis was and the results were that it's not bad at all, in fact, just the opposite.
Recently, the true neutral studies are happening, with Israel and other countries leading the way.

The body of evidence on cannabis being a gateway to opioids is so remote/so biased/so far-fetched that the word "preposterous" comes to my mind.
Just looking at the facts, with opioid deaths being down 24.8% in states with cannabis access and opioid RXs being down by the millions--it could not get much clearer, that cannabis is an exit drug for opioids and can save thousands of lives.

I'm very active in the legalization movement and with veterans cannabis issues, so I've talked to hundreds of veterans and their stories are all support the exit drug conclusion. A typical story-- one VietNam era vet was on 16 different meds (including painkillers) and said cannabis saved his life, now on just med cannabis. Their stories all support cannabis being an exit drug. Our vets deserve access to cannabis---instead we pump them full of nasty meds :(
 

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
You are on a cannabis fan site. Not liking the guy who claims we are all "bad people" isn't "political".
I don't "like" him either. I think he is a sneaky little shit that could affect my life in a negative way. Expressing that dislike in a public way is inherently political. Based on my perception of your bias, let's go with the definitional, "relating to the ideas or strategies of a particular party or group in politics."

ONE study claims a statistical link in Colorado showing a slight increase in opioid use. Most other studies show that legalization reduces opioid use and deaths. Looking at the preponderance of evidence is how science works.
The gateway theory has more than one study out there and even those on our side of the debate USED to fight the data that came up again and again with "correlation is not causation" argument. One way we would distinguish the facts (relationship between illicit opioid use and prior cannabis use) is the logical argument which was essentially EVERYONE who uses opioids has PREVIOUSLY drunk water. There was also the side distinction we would allow by noting that since marijuana is illegal, then the data might be explained from the very fact it is illegal makes it more likely further illegal things might happen. In other words, it was the illegality of cannabis and not the cannabis that caused the relationship between the two in the data.

Since we still have the relationship data (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25168081) and we are starting to find (From studies like the one you presented.) it is not substantially because of the legal status of cannabis, we are starting to get stuck in finding a distinction other than correlation is not causation.

I will have to disagree with you on "how science works". Preponderance of the evidence is good for courts that have to make some decision at some time certain. Here's why one scientist disagrees with that as a standard:
https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/12/29/will-lawyers-destroy-science-12340

In any case, Sessions is at least a little premature in claiming that marijuana use leads to opioid abuse, no?
Premature? No. Fixed position without fair consideration of additional data? Yes. Right? I believe no. I agree with you that my experience with most who use cannabis is that it does not progress to problems with harder drugs. I also know a few where it did progress. The way I square that circle is that they guys I know were always wildmen. Johnny Cash, Ozzy Osborne, John Belushi et al were going to use hard no matter what. Just because pot came first does not mean it caused anything.

In a recent article, the Conservative/Libertarian site "Reason" listed 6 studies that say the reverse of Jeff's stupid claim. https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/07/jeff-sessions-says-opioid-addiction-star

Personally, the wacky weed has never made me want to start popping pills. I can't believe we are going back to the silly "gateway drug" theory.
I'm pleased we have finally gotten to the point where we are talking about a stupid claim rather than a stupid person. i also agree with the article that shows why the study that started this discussion was a minor improvement in the argument for our side of this particular issue. I'm less pleased with your final paragraph as it seems you don't understand the gateway theory.

Most things in life are multivariate in that many things come together in certain ways to get a result. Much of the math in such studies is to try and eliminate variables other than the one(s) we are looking to explain. No one, even Sessions, claim that a puff of the marijuanas makes one a heroin addict. They just claim that, when you look at heroin addicts, a higher percentage than the general population have taken a puff of the marijuanas. (I'm just making the claim up as an example. The precision in writing that would be required to make their actual claim would take more time than it's worth.) That you puffed the marijuanas and didn't want to inject heroin does not refute the claim.

Now for some love from a wise Latina:
She encouraged students not to limit themselves. Instead, she said, they should widen their nets and take bits of workable guidance wherever they could find it — whether it was Bob Dylan, Billy Joel or a blockbuster movie.

"You learn that you can find your courage in unlikely places," she said. "Be open to watching what other people are doing. Adapt from them" whatever suits, and leave out what doesn't.

Sotomayor repeatedly returned to the theme of empathy during her remarks.

"A lot of people start with derision as their first response" to a disagreement, she said.

But she suggested it's better to forge relationships built on common ground even if you disagree with someone. She singled out Thomas as the justice "with whom I probably disagree the most.

"Yet I can stand here and say that I just love the man — as a person."
https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...tomayor-vanderbilt-clarence-thomas/474260002/
 
Tranquility,
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