Boiling point myths and the science of flower vaporization

[Black_Prrl]

I’ve been wanting to make a vape mythology thread for a while, so I’m definitely stoked to see this!

I'm totally down with making a de-mythification thread... though from the outset, I'd like to stipulate that consumer experience and years of lore must be accepted at face value and with respect even if it turns out to be the result of misconceptions. Lore reflects our collective experience and "what we know"--until science catches up with it. I have no interest in ego-rants that shame others as being "wrong."

And, there is a need to scrutinize the science being done as well. Oftentimes, it does not reflect the consumer experience, as noted by folks above, or there is insufficient evidence to support the claims. Dr Strongin did some solid research and didn't overreach on his conclusions, yet the experimental design would have been better if it reflected a variety of more realistic dabbing techniques.

In fact, regarding surface level evaporation - if you dollop concentrate directly onto dried flower and attempt to use the cellulose plant material itself as a wick, you’ll notice those saturated spots on the surface actually struggle to vaporize compared to the rest of the surrounding material.

@invertedisdead: this is a great point! What I believe happens is that the fibers are so dense that the oils create an "oil slick" that blocks the airflow. In this case, there is a cohesive volume for boiling to be the dominant vaporization mechanism--until the slick dissipates and air flows through it again. Often, just a little stirring will break that up nicely and allow for more efficient vaporization.

We just introduced an organic concentrate pad made from compressed plant fibers. It allows for efficient wicking and increased surface area, without creating any blockage. After many frustrations with stainless mesh inserts, which drip and waste concentrate, I spent the past few years searching for a better solution. I'm pretty pleased with its performance!

Note: while I am quite biased about our products, this isn't a thread where I'll bring them up, except to illustrate or support a point. If you want to ask specific product questions, please see the Neo thread here.

 

[Curious Gorilla]

Never used concentrates ,apart from hash joints when i smoked and tricomes sprinkled on green matter. My last collection of plant powder dust went the way of mugwamp jism and i ran out of prescribed greenery.I do have a bit of honey like reclaim,but as Invertedisdeadsaid with concentrates it clogs up green matter. Ended up not using it. Yet. The pads sound like a good idea.

Another myth to question if i may....... Tolerance breaks.
In the UK they like to fuck with patients supplies.... went a week late and without.
My previous involuntary break, for slightly different reasons, but a similar source of problems, was 3 weeks. A month before.
It had detrimental health effects on several levels. Doesnt mean other people dont benefit, but I also find I am needing to get my tolerance back so i can use levels that have the desired effect. (for me ends up tolerence meaning less feeling stoned, gets so i miss it) hITS HARD the first few days.
I have noticed im finding periodicaly i will spend 1 or 2 days vapourising less than half my usual dose, cause i dont feel like having it. When i Smoked Pure Joints that was unheard of. So it feels easier to take (short) lower dosage days, although im still jonesing after a day with nothing. Anyone else find that?
(Only been vapourising 6 months. FuckCombustion, gladley.)
How useful are tolerance breaks ?
Is there a right way to do them?
Are they necessary?
Are they completely unnecessary?
Is it all personal preference?
Do mugwumps regenerate ?
And does their jism help with burns?

On a serious note.... Lavender oil does help with burns. Cold running water first for at least 3 or 4 minites to cool the boiling fat under the skin, then lavender esential oil rubbed in gently. Helps stop blistering and calms the pain. Not a myth. Personal experience more often than id like in the last 6 months, and from past metalworking. Edit.... if the pain continues, frozen pease wrapped in a t-shirt or tea towel.
Is there a first aid thread?

Edit--Sorry, found other posts. Should have looked first.

 

[GoldenBud]

How useful are tolerance breaks ?

if you don't mind being addicted to THC (like 20%, or more, of the people in USA or so) , you can afford it financial/grow it, and you have different strains (different terpenes, diversity) you don't need to take tolerance breaks, just diverse with terpenes and you're fine. sometimes get dabs/bubble hash to diverse too

 

[Black_Prrl]

Hey, everyone! I wanted to let you know that I recently discussed this, and other topics with Wayne Schwind, the host of the Periodic Effects Science and Business podcast. If you haven't listened to his show, I highly encourage it. His guests are usually quite legit and he has a science background.

https://flic.kr/p/2nSS4CZ
Here are the links to the two episodes, 285 & 286:

YouTube Video =

;

Website Audio = https://www.periodiceffects.com/episodes/285; https://www.periodiceffects.com/episodes/286

 

[Victarion]

Many thanks for sharing these episodes.

Around the middle of the first episode something hits me. It is about the fact that people easily understands that some plants are better to give a heady vs couch-lock effect. But most don't know that with the same plant you can also achieve a variety of mind altered states.

I have currently a Northern Light at home and depending on the goal I can purposely achieve one result or the other. When I want something that stimulate my creativity, I will vaporize at the lightest temperature (without any visible cloud). And when I start to chase clouds I know I will get something leaning toward the couch-lock. There is nothing 100% accurate in here and I've come to know very well my devices for this to be true however this is something I am playing experiencing and playing with constantly. Glad to hear that this is also real for other users.

 

[Haze Mister]

Many devices claim to be able to vary the power fast enough to adjust to one's inhalation, which cools the chamber rapidly, but I have very serious doubts.

It is BS made up by marketing drones. You would need an uncomfortably large device to do that and there is no need because we have heat storage materials like ceramic, quartz, ruby , SiC, etc. The concept of using some gadget to deliver a scientifically controlled steady temperature vapor is a control fantasy by people who watched too much Star Trek and are more intersted in selling gadgets than vaporising.

repeating what I posted in related thread:

Interesting to see this discussion now that we have injector ball vapes... Higher temps delivered rapidly deliver the full spectrum of both flavour and psychoactivity as fas as I can tell from the last 2.5 years of testing. Unless you can stick a sensor inside your bowl and measure temperature while inhaling, absolute tempreature readings are meaningless... I disregard"the science" that is concerned with isolating individual compounds and the general (pseudo)scientific culture around sacred plants as so much hot air ...

Injectors have totally changed "the game" when it comes to vaping flower, because they can deliver a concentrated beam of actual hot air without dropping the temperature as soon as the user starts inhaling.

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IMO To get the effect you want it is better to use the right material rather than trying to control temperature precisely. ( eg. clear vs amber trichomes, different strains )​

​

I'm totally down with making a de-mythification thread...

Me too! I have been meaning to do that for years but ... vested interests will likely lead to flames. The cannabis industry is largely based on BS hype, especially since "decriminalisation" when big parasite class investors who don't even care about the plant or its users moved in. The issue touches on cultural issues of consumerism and capitalism ( which has made it acceptable to lie so as to sell product) and invariably leads to flames because comfort zones are threatened... DON'T GET ME STARTED ON CARTRIDGES!

The reality in Europe (except Maybe France) is that vaporizers have uttely FAILED to catch on. This is simply because most of the stuff being marketed just does not deliver the goods and smokers are not satisfied, and the Volcano is too expensive and awkward, so they continue smoking. The average European chronic smoker has not even heard of the Dynavap (which does deliver but is lost among a crowd of battery-operated gadgets that do not).

 

[Farid]

IMO To get the effect you want it is better to use the right material rather than trying to control temperature precisely. ( eg. clear vs amber trichomes, different strains )
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Agreed 100%. The different effects you get with different temperatures pales in comparison to different bud you're vaporizing. I also wonder how much the differences in effects from lower temperatures is related to inhaling less actives than higher temperatures. For example a tiny quantity of bud vaped at a very high temp can sometimes produce effects similar to a low temp hit off a larger bowl - is that because the quantity of vapor inhaled is similar? This is obviously highly subjective.

 

[invertedisdead]

I also wonder how much the differences in effects from lower temperatures is related to inhaling less actives than higher temperatures.

IMO probably most of it.

Same with conduction vapes being more "stony" - I think there's just less condensation losses, so the active dose is higher.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@Haze Mister, The game changed for me the moment I started actually watching the flower in the chamber as it's being vaporized in real time.

It's easy to forget about the most important part, the cannabis flower itself!

A joint is probably the most intimate human to flower consumption experience that exists today. The grinding, loading, lighting, inhaling... this is all a dance between you and the plant. It's a delicate balance that requires your involvement.

To me, some vaporizers attempt to "improve" on this experience by replacing the human element with technology. By insulating yourself from the dance, you lose the feeling necessary to dance gracefully.

Vaporizers are merely tools that we use to communicate with cannabis... and the best tools will enhance the accuracy of that communication.

Master craftsmen often talk about how they can feel the work under their tools, and that the most simple tools, tools that have remained the same for hundreds of years, provide the most direct line between their brains and the work.

My ideal vaporizer is the one that puts the least amount of stuff between me and the plant.

There is a lot of fluff in the vape market, and I think that many manufacturers are at risk of losing the whole point.

 

[TigoleBitties]

I posted this in another thread but I think it's relevant here too.

It's a big debate although I would say I feel that on the whole, lower temp vaping should generate less harmful compounds is a true statement.

What would be nice is to find some peer reviewed science that uses an apparatus to capture the vapor from different vapes at different temps and then analyze the contents of the vapor. Using the vape as a sort of "black box" where variables like temp/evaporation/conduction and other physical effects are unknown but in the end we don't care bc we just analyze the vapor that's output from the "black box".

If the contents of the vapor contains carcinogens or other unwanted compounds then there's cause for concern. I'd venture to say there is a correlation between higher temps and unwanted compounds.

Good article to start the reading...

 

[GoldenBud]

I'd venture to say there is a correlation between higher temps and unwanted compounds.

Absolutely. and that's why it seems from the Supreme vaporizer videos, that people vape at a temperature of like 165c-170c, huge clouds, and you won't hear them cough or something. huge heater, low temp, slow draw = maximum health. high temp, dark ABV, is the opposite of this.

I am sure that conduction is less healthy than convection as you have said, too.

 

[Timps27]

A joint is probably the most intimate human to flower consumption experience that exists today.

And possibly the least efficient. My best friend loves spliffs and I will try them every now and again; but a fat spliff with 0.1g or more material does nothing for me, while a 0.05g Dyna still sends me over the moon.

 

[gotbadvas]

A joint is probably the most intimate human to flower consumption experience that exists today.

I don't know maybe it could just be nostalgia for people that started using this method? How is breaking up bud for a joint and rolling a tube of fiber up with your fingers different than loading a nicely crafted vape? Because you lick it I guess? Not busting your balls more making fun of you and myself because I like rolling joints once in a great while. Always regret it after though but makes me feel like I am in jr high again. It is just nostalgia for me.

When I smoke it really does drive home how much more irritation smoking causes vs. vaping of any kind. Throat, eyes, breathing all negatively impacted just from one joint. Takes a few days to clear up to feeling back how I am just vaping. I am convinced it's much healthier as long as you aren't using some off gassing mystery vape.

 

[Haze Mister]

peer reviewed science

I got a bridge to sell .....

 

[GoldenBud]

also, remember that low temps has less chances to release free radicals other than high temps....

 

[gotbadvas]

Yes @GoldenBud I don't doubt it. I think it's a balance though because if you use lower temps and have to inhale a lot of hot air it could end up being worse. I think if you want low temps you are better off using the most powerful vape so you get a hit right away. One thing I like about conduction is you don't suck in as much hot air. It's all so variable depending on the vape though. My TA starts hitting almost instantly so I really like that even though it's mostly convection.

 

[TigoleBitties]

I got a bridge to sell .....

Yeah I hear you.... gotta always be wary of your sources and who funded the research but peer reviewed science sets the bar for scientific research in general. A healthy dose of skepticism never hurts.

Yes @GoldenBud I don't doubt it. I think it's a balance though because if you use lower temps and have to inhale a lot of hot air it could end up being worse. I think if you want low temps you are better off using the most powerful vape so you get a hit right away. One thing I like about conduction is you don't suck in as much hot air. It's all so variable depending on the vape though. My TA starts hitting almost instantly so I really like that even though it's mostly convection.

There are so many variables that go into how a vape is used. That's why I think it'd be nice to have some sort of industry standard testing where vapor is collected in a controlled way at controlled temps and then analyzed using gas chromatography or something. Publish the results of all compounds in the vapor and it should be easy to see which vapes introduce unwanted substances and at what concentrations and temps they occur.

Ideally this testing should be done by some neutral government institution and the info could be present on the vape packaging. This way we could forego the convection/conduction/materials used debate and go right to the analysis of what comes out of the device and into our lungs.

 

[Monk Debate]

Injectors have totally changed "the game" when it comes to vaping flower, because they can deliver a concentrated beam of actual hot air without dropping the temperature as soon as the user starts inhaling.

Wouldn’t this be true for any device that provides continuous hot air during the draw? I understand that injectors generally heat soak before use so there is a large reservoir of heat to draw from, but wouldn’t devices like a Sticky Brick or a Splinter or a log vape achieve the same effect? As long as the source of the heat is strong enough to not diminish when drawn upon, should that not have the same effect as an injector?

 

[GoldenBud]

Wouldn’t this be true for any device that provides continuous hot air during the draw? I understand that injectors generally heat soak before use so there is a large reservoir of heat to draw from, but wouldn’t devices like a Sticky Brick or a Splinter or a log vape achieve the same effect? As long as the source of the heat is strong enough to not diminish when drawn upon, should that not have the same effect as an injector?

yeah or tubo tetra etc' .. once it's hot it's like injector + -

 

[Haze Mister]

Wouldn’t this be true for any device that provides continuous hot air during the draw? I understand that injectors generally heat soak before use so there is a large reservoir of heat to draw from, but wouldn’t devices like a Sticky Brick or a Splinter or a log vape achieve the same effect? As long as the source of the heat is strong enough to not diminish when drawn upon, should that not have the same effect as an injector?

I haven't really looked at the heater tech used in those or current log vapes. It seems sensible to combine a steady heater with at least some heat storage, if only for the buffering effect, so the vape-on-demand electric heater designs must be quite difficult to get right- especially the portables!

 

[GoldenBud]

even the tuboX, not the tetraX, was like an injector vape after 1 minute of soaking.. in this video even 3-4 minutes of heat soaking..there was a session before this hit..... 0.1gr, bright abv

Watch b34st | Streamable

Watch "b34st" on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[Hippie Dickie]

*Note: the actual air temperature of a convection vaporizer at the herb is mostly a function of thermal power generated and the volumetric airflow of your inhalation. Many devices claim to be able to vary the power fast enough to adjust to one's inhalation, which cools the chamber rapidly, but I have very serious doubts. And, I only know less than a handful that use a thermocouple to get temperature feedback. So, any claims at temperature control is suspect. With the Neo, I made a deliberate decision to set power levels, rather than attempt temperature control. One's breath is a much better regulators than any algorithm and with just a little practice, you are able to "surf" vapor points with a lot more control.

it can be done - k-type thermocouple, LiFePO4 batteries with 70 amp output, PIC12F683 and 35 pages of assembly code = The Herbal Cube. no practice required. my preferred setting is 420°. all glass air path, except for the herb.