Arizer ArGo

[Andreaerdna]

No, they're not. At least I don't think there are. There are no such animals in fact? Conduction and convection are two different processes running at two radically different temperatures. For convection to work you need a LOT more than 400F air to heat the herb...... Combustion temperatures, not possible with conduction?


Anyway, I make it convection like Solo/Air (there is no such thing as a 'hybrid vape' in the real world.....only Sales), in a more convenient package. Looks like another winner from our neighbors to the North to me.

Merry Christmas to all.

OF

I desagree here

I think we both see @Stu video experiment with solo and a temp probe

When solo is on and heating, the bowl get heated by radiation from the heater right under (@low temp, under vaporisation temp, little above 100c IIRC) the bowl transfers heat by “conduction/radiation” to your load that will need now less heat to reach selected vaporizing temperature

When you draw, you force air through the heater and you add a convective stream of hot air that rise temp to what you selected.

So at least one hybrid vape exists and is very popular

 

[OF]

I desagree here

When solo is on and heating, the bowl get heated by radiation from the heater right under (@low temp, under vaporisation temp, little above 100c IIRC) the bowl transfers heat by “conduction/radiation” to your load that will need now less heat to reach selected vaporizing temperature

I expected you would........

First off, for sure there "the bowl get (sic) heated by radiation from the heater" is not right. Thermodynamics says so. Radiation only works (transfers enough energy to be useful) if the source is very very hot (like sun hot). IR has to enter the load much faster than it leaves just to add energy in the Thermodynamics game. The temperatures cannot be the same. Every use the Bender? It's a IR powered vape, the source is GLOWING HOT. The cup is heated by conduction, pure and simple, and some models include heat sink compound to improve this transfer?

I get that some guys want it to be convection. We just went through another round of this on the Solo discussion. Some arguments include the 'convection is power hungry' (long battery life means it can't be convection which wastes lots of heat heating extra air) one, or the 'heat soak' is a conduction thing, if it was really convection you could put a cold stem on a hot vape and suck away to instant vapor point? Or the observation that real convection vapes don't get 'overrun' by hard hitting like Solo/Air.

Anyway, our own Sticks did some fun thermocouple experiments that show the conduction in operation, you might want to hunt them up in the Solo II discussion IIRC. There's also PIU's terardown of the Air II:
http://blog.puffitup.com/2017/11/arizer-air-2-teardown-and-disassembly/

Notice, please, the 'Closing Thoughts' at the end:

"The Arizer Air was widely believed to be a convection / conduction hybrid vape but after fully taking apart the upper chamber and heater we can safely conclude the Air and Air 2 and most likely the Solo and Solo 2 are purely conduction vapes without any convection heating."

I'm sure Randy would love to be able to claim it's convection for the sales advantage, but it seem honesty got in the way? Anyway, he went to the same Thermodynamics classes I did it seems. IMO it's conduction all the way, from warm metal in the heater to vapor in you and me. The results speak for themselves really, it's not important the name. As Shakespeare said about roses? But, if we are going to use technical terms like conduction, convection and radiation we should, I think, do so correctly?

Best wishes to all.

OF

 

[PPN]

No, they're not. At least I don't think there are. There are no such animals in fact? Conduction and convection are two different processes running at two radically different temperatures. For convection to work you need a LOT more than 400F air to heat the herb...... Combustion temperatures, not possible with conduction?

Good marketing, though. Everyone wants convection, right? It's always better........
....

Merry Christmas to all.

OF

Thanks for your explanations, I was close to reply "it depends, there is a debate about this topic", but your reply means a lot more!

Maybe they didn't sold the Air2 and Solo2 very well and decided to go for another design...
edit: while I was typing here the debate already begin!

 

[tashian]

First off, for sure there "the bowl get (sic) heated by radiation from the heater" is not right. Thermodynamics says so.

Sorry, wrong take. All object emit radiation and exchange it...see the law of Stefan-Boltzmann....

 

[tashian]

Sorry, wrong take. All object emit radiation and exchange it...see the law of Stefan-Boltzmann....

And sure there is convection, without any doubt. By definition if there is an exchange of energy by mass flow of a fluid (read air) then there is partial convection going on...I do not argue if the effect is mostly conduction or not, but sure there is convection going on.

 

[Sonicboom1991]

And sure there is convection, without any doubt. By definition if there is an exchange of energy by mass flow of a fluid (read air) then there is partial convection going on...I do not argue if the effect is mostly conduction or not, but sure there is convection going on.

By that standard wouldn't pretty much all vapes have a convection element...

 

[biohacker]

Everyone wants convection, right? It's always better........

Nope! I absolutely cannot stand full on convection vapes (at least my lungs can't). And IMO, they are inefficient compared to hybrid vapes (sorry I don't fall for convection OR conduction... just IMO).

there is no such thing as a 'hybrid vape' in the real world

I can't believe this keeps coming up over and over and over again!

In the real world, my favourite vaporizer, the supreme v3 can be used as a conduction vape, OR convection vape depending on how it is used. And yes, even as a hybrid - which is my preferred way of using it.

I personally feel that these Arizer products are mainly conduction, with some convection - hybrid - maybe 80/20. The S&B Mighty on the other hand I feel is reversed, mainly convection with some conduction. Just my opinions based on owning over a dozen Mighty's and over 2 dozen Arizer portables.

The ArGo looks like lipstick on a pig IMO, although I can see some advantages of preloads and protecting the stem if the unit moves up and down as shown.

When Arizer really INNOVATES, they will have my attention. But all i'm seeing is repackaging of the same ancient technology of the og solo back in the day. But perhaps that is what so many fans like about it?

After the Air 2 release, I just don't see how the ArGo makes sense.

 

[Andreaerdna]

@OF always on topic, but some new data is available
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vape-temp-profile-charts.25780/

Thank you @stickstones for the chart showing temperature of air2 while in use

Temperature raise before hitting so radiation/conduction is a thing
When stickstones starts to hit we can appreciate how the temperature climb faster than before, and also how temperture drops after hit finished, so convection too is proved in a noticeable ratio

Anyone can believe what anyone wants, facts are facts and words have a meaning, air2 is proved to be an hybrid (convection/conduction-radiation vape IMO)

 

[tashian]

By that standard wouldn't pretty much all vapes have a convection element...

Yes, meaning all have conduction and convection going on but the relative importance of each of these is difference so can be predominantely convection or conduction but both are always happening whenever air is forced thru the herbs and the walls of the ball have any sort of heat capacity.

 

[JCharles]

Conduction, Convection, Radiation Rap

On a more serious note...

And please remember that glass is an insulator of heat and not a conductor. A simple way to keep track is most conductors of heat are also good conductors of electricity (ie metals). Electrical isulators like glass, wood, ceramic, are also insulators of heat.

 

[Bologna]

Why does it hurt my hand when I try to pick up my glass cup of hot tea..?

 

[KeroZen]

Because it's a poor conductor and a poor insulator. Depending on the source and the kind of glass under consideration, you can find thermal conductivity coefficient values for glass in the 1.05 to 0.95 range. Anything above 1 is a conductor, anything under is an insulator.

But even good insulators do conduct heat over time, just more slowly. So even your hypothetical rock-wool tea mug would get warm given enough time. Would your tea get cold before the mug gets hot enough to hurt your hand, that would make a nice exam question.

 

[OF]

Why does it hurt my hand when I try to pick up my glass cup of hot tea..?

But even good insulators do conduct heat over time, just more slowly. So even your hypothetical rock-wool tea mug would get warm given enough time. Would your tea get cold before the mug gets hot enough to hurt your hand, that would make a nice exam question.

Love it. The short answer is you gave it enough time to get hot enough? It's a 'rate of rise' game.....with a pretty short time constant, drink fast. Or do what they do in some places in the world, hold the glass on fingertips on the rim and base/corner where losses are greatest so the surface is cooler than other places?

In heatsinking electronic components, this is modeled as 'degrees C per Watt' of heat flow. The bigger the fins or faster the fan the smaller that number gets. Figured backwards, you can calculate the temperature at the actual die in the package (since the package itself has a different degrees/W number.

It would make a fun exam question for the truly serious. It's exactly the sort of thing you do for life/death in space vehicles? From Mercury through the Shuttle, this was critical. It's also in play in places like glass plants where a 'melt' might run months. The heat has to be 100% contained for that entire time or else....... Tons and tons of hot glass, not good.

Would be a fun/useful rating I think. Being able to say 'no exposed surface is more than XX degrees hotter' would be nice. Some, like FMs, can be out right dangerous. Others just uncomfortable to hold with heavy use. Smaller units, like here, are most likely to suffer this. Trying to keep track of which parts aren't too hot to hang onto can harsh your mellow fast, as any Iolite owner will tell you.

Hopefully this (heat buildup) won't be a big issue with ArGo, but I bet it's a factor.

OF

 

[invertedisdead]

I'm really surprised at the lack of concentrate accessories in the Arizer line-up. Especially being based in Canada. I actually sent Arizer my design for a stem based concentrate dish. Maybe I should again consider producing this product myself just like Ratchett does. I've been doing a ton of material research for my own vaporizer designs lately and found some pretty interesting stuff not really being implemented in this field yet.

 

[JCharles]

I'm really surprised at the lack of concentrate accessories in the Arizer line-up. Especially being based in Canada. I actually sent Arizer my design for a stem based concentrate dish. Maybe I should again consider producing this product myself just like Ratchett does. I've been doing a ton of material research for my own vaporizer designs lately and found some pretty interesting stuff not really being implemented in this field yet.

With the upcoming cannabis legalization in Canada we are getting flower (and LPs currently also have oils).

Concentrates may be legal eventually (a year or two maybe).

As a Canadian company alot of Canadians will be comfortable ordering and using Arizer products. As such I think they are doubling down on the recreational market and consumers wanting uber portable. They are releasing a product that will need no regular maintenance and the most complicated aspect to use is replacing a battery.


It's only recently that legal cannabis is available for the recreational user, and it's going to be an ever growing market.


Our demographic is more cannabis enthusiast and as a medicine - we have been asking for specific upgrades/have expectations for our hobby, and manufactures are generally listening.

But we are also very forgiving with those manufactures when things go wrong - and I think that will be the biggest difference to the companies we support - the recreational market will not have the same loyalty or patience.

Can you imagine a new rec user buys a Grasshopper as their first vape only to need to RDA it later that week. Chances are we would lose a vaporent back to combustion or worse (abstinence).


Look at how GPens, Kandy Pens, Atmos and Grenko get shat on by the vaporent community and yet they are still top selling vaporizers by volume. The recreational user isn't interested in the healthiest, most efficient, reputable merchant. They want something Snoop Dogg has endorsed because 'weed.

The Plenty is a beast but due to its aesthetics and plug, it will never be adopted by the general recreational user that wants something small/pocketable, that looks cool and can blow huge clouds (even if the vapor path is dirty or the unit is a generic re-labeled pos) with their favourite celebrities name on it.



In time, hopefully the rec market will see the error in their ways and our favourite companies like Underdog, Arizer, Boundless, DynaVap, 7th Floor... will become trusted household names.

 

[Simple10]

Is this another session vape or does it have on-demand mode?

 

[Dynavaper]

Is this another session vape or does it have on-demand mode?

I would call nothing with a heat-up time above 10secs. "on demand", so it's just another session vape.

 

[JCharles]

@Simple10 @Dynavaper
If you watch the promo videos you'll see within the menu you can set the auto off/session timer with the same options we have for Air and Solo (with the video showing a 10 minute session)

 

[OF]

@Simple10 @Dynavaper
If you watch the promo videos you'll see within the menu you can set the auto off/session timer with the same options we have for Air and Solo (with the video showing a 10 minute session)

I was thinking it's too bad you can't turn the screen brightness down to zero (stealth mode) like you can with many mods. That light lighting up your face is kind of a give away sometimes?

Not so important to Solo/Air I guess, but they advertise it being 'small enough to palm'.......not very realistic if it's carrying 'running lights' in the dark. Perhaps there's a way to hold it that blocks the light (or most of it)?

Time will tell.

OF

 

[Meach]

With all these vapes taking similar form factor to e-cig box mods..I don't think the lights are that much of an issue anymore...have you seen these box mods out lately..they look like a video game when you fire them ..lol

 

[OF]

With all these vapes taking similar form factor to e-cig box mods..I don't think the lights are that much of an issue anymore...have you seen these box mods out lately..they look like a video game when you fire them ..lol

Good point, but in some cases dark is much better I think. If you don't draw attention, you don't have to count on being assumed a 'harmless e-cig user'.

They also are kinda like a cell phone as well?

It would be an easy thing to add stealth (dark) you'd think?

Real paranoia demands as much as possible you know. And more.

OF

 

[The Beagle]

in some cases dark is much better I think. If you don't draw attention, you don't have to count on being assumed a 'harmless e-cig user'.

I totally agree with you on this, I ordered a Fury 2 instead of one of the way cheaper rebrands available here mainly because of its stealth mode.
A lot of unlucky people like me still lives in illegal countries so features like this one can be a big selling point, and they are (I guess) very easy to implement.

 

[ataxian]

Nope! I absolutely cannot stand full on convection vapes (at least my lungs can't). And IMO, they are inefficient compared to hybrid vapes (sorry I don't fall for convection OR conduction... just IMO).



I can't believe this keeps coming up over and over and over again!

In the real world, my favourite vaporizer, the supreme v3 can be used as a conduction vape, OR convection vape depending on how it is used. And yes, even as a hybrid - which is my preferred way of using it.

I personally feel that these Arizer products are mainly conduction, with some convection - hybrid - maybe 80/20. The S&B Mighty on the other hand I feel is reversed, mainly convection with some conduction. Just my opinions based on owning over a dozen Mighty's and over 2 dozen Arizer portables.

The ArGo looks like lipstick on a pig IMO, although I can see some advantages of preloads and protecting the stem if the unit moves up and down as shown.

When Arizer really INNOVATES, they will have my attention. But all i'm seeing is repackaging of the same ancient technology of the og solo back in the day. But perhaps that is what so many fans like about it?

After the Air 2 release, I just don't see how the ArGo makes sense.

Your assessment I like a lot!

My all time favorite is a JOINT.
UNFORTUNATELY not very healthly and coughing is kine of uncomfortable?

You have to run a business and make a few job's in the process.

Last night I realized I live in ISOLATION.
Saw a friend from HS that has a completely different take on life?
We went to the same school even?

My view are my view's and I see thing's different than most.

This little portable is perfect for some.

Enough said!

My SOLO fills a void in my life and find it perfect for study.

We need different thing's to fit us!

This device (ARGO) is useful to some!

 

[justcametomind]

I bought a Jyarz herb container and it only took one hit to the ground from 1 meter high to break the inside glass. And that had also a padding at the bottom and at the top of the jar. S&B capsules are so much more convenient than a glass stem. One could think that a glass stem is safe inside the Argo, my experience with glass stuff suggests it is not. Preloaded stems even worse imho.
I like it being small, I could be interested if it was an on demand vape, non just another session vape.

 

[ataxian]

I bought a Jyarz herb container and it only took one hit to the ground from 1 meter high to break the inside glass. And that had also a padding at the bottom and at the top of the jar. S&B capsules are so much more convenient than a glass stem. One could think that a glass stem is safe inside the Argo, my experience with glass stuff suggests it is not. Preloaded stems even worse imho.
I like it being small, I could be interested if it was an on demand vape, non just another session vape.

@justcametomind I have jarz, however I broke all the inside glass several time's?

I just use left over make up jars (L'OREAL) or SORBET JAR'S. Sometimes I use empty vitamin jar's?

Storage for your cannabis is pertinent!

My wife think's I've lost it!

I like to be with her so the jar's I use work out?

Now CANNABIS is why we are here?

VAPORIZING make's it doable!