Arizer Air II

[stickstones]

I get it that folks want their favorite vapes to be convection

And lastly I'd like to point to PIU and their teardown of the new Air:

Just to set the tone here and make sure we are all on the same page...I don't care what the answer is to this heating question, I just want it answered once and for all. I find it unacceptable that knowledgeable and experienced people such as yourself, Randy, me and the engineers at Arizer, just to name a few, have differing views on something as simple as the type of heating used in a 6-year old vape technology. We all have too much influence in this industry to be on different pages on this, and it shouldn't be a mystery!

I've been telling people for years these vapes were conduction with very little, if any, convection going on based mostly on one test...letting a full bowl sit in one of them without hitting it until it shuts off. The bowl is always cooked - tada...conduction!

But now I'm doing a lot more testing, and deeper too, and we have a lot more vapes to compare to. Now that I have some actual test data on it I have a hard time reconciling the all-conduction model. The hybrid theory fits it perfectly and the conduction-only model doesn't anymore.

So, please let me know of any tests I can do to support either theory, and anything I can do differently in tests I'm already running. I'm all about testing them all out so we can get to the bottom of this. If test results sway me back to the conduction side, so be it, but it's gonna be data that gets me back there, not theories and analogies.

 

[OF]

So, please let me know of any tests I can do to support either theory, and anything I can do differently in tests I'm already running. I'm all about testing them all out so we can get to the bottom of this.

I think I've already said I ran into the same issue trying to read this way. But I knew it was a bogus reading from past experience and the theory of what's going on (and formal education in Thermodynamics long ago of course). If I had a suggestion on how to accurately read the load temperature in a better manner I would not only not be shy in suggesting it, but I would most likely have done the same long ago?

I have suggested a couple of experiments, like putting the load above the partition where there isn't any conduction and see if convection will do the job, that might help? Too many things (needed heat soak, excellent battery life, instant vapor availability and so on) seem to eliminate convection as a mode?

One (sure) thing you might consider: When the T/C reports 300F it's not lying. It 'reads' 300F at the 'hot junction', not 400F in the herb around it. The other herb in the load is obviously hotter (it's making vapor) it's just that the local heat in the load around the sensor is artificially low due to conduction up the leads (a known source of error in T/C systems sometimes). Consider that the T/C will report a different temperature if you poke it into firm contact with the cup (even though we know it's all the same temperature at idle, due to conduction)?

I get it it's frustrating and you'd like proof you can duplicate. And demonstrate. I wish I had it to offer. I don't really feel a driving need personally since I'm quite confident my 'take' on Thermodynamics is sound enough to cover this case. The more I think about it 'convection/conduction hybrid' seems like wishful thinking on the part of some 'suit' (Salesman). No Scientist or Engineer would make such claims in this case? Unless his boss tolt him to, of course........

Perhaps someone else can provide some more insight or explanations. As a fellow I once worked for was fond of saying, 'of course this stuff isn't simple or easy to do, if it was we'd have the Janitor do it and we could save money on your salary'.

So, out of curiosity, how hot is the heated air in Volcano? Does it deliver 390F air to the load? Dollars to doughnuts it doesn't.....it's hotter?

OF

 

[ohmygodimsohigh]

I still believe the Arizers have some convection benefit.
I've done tests and comparisons to eliminate the conduction and am still able to produce vapor (just not a ton)

I don't think the typical rules of convection apply when both convection and conduction are used.

Just because the convection isn't strong enough to stand on its own doesn't mean it's not having a positive effect on the experience.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i think we're all talking around the issues due to the need to type out the questions and answers ... we need to get in the same room and pass the vape and get down to terms ... but just one point:

That is you sense with a T/C the heater temperature and hold it to some controlled value? Any idea in degrees F what that temperature is? If it's really using a lot of Radiation (IR) to transfer heat through the glass (entirely possible, that's the only mode for Bender after all.....which has an incandescent heater) it must be quite a bit warmer than 400F? IR is just not a realistic heating mode unless the temperature difference is quite large and the distances small?

i'm measuring the hottest part of the heater surface (glass) with the front mount display, so i know the maximum temp is 390°F ... what i am measuring with the probe in the middle of the herb, is the air temperature after the incoming air has been heated by the heater ... evidently, the T/C (and mega amps of the batteries) can maintain the setpoint with no drop in temperature of the heater, regardless of the cooling of the incoming airflow.

the k-type is mashed against the hottest part of the heater coil - very small probe with fast response - more of an instantaneous temperature measurement, while the BBQ thermometer on the glass is more of an average temp reading.

However, it is not possible to transfer as much heat into the airflow if the air is moving too fast - but a nice slow draw is enough to heat the airflow to the heater temperature, which does the vape thing on the herb.

i think the IR that is going on is just enough to melt the plant waxes that form the shell of the trichomes, so the 390°F air is enough to do the vaporizing phase transition.

i don't get vaporizers that run so hot - like 1200°F just to deliver 400°F - weird design to my mind.

there is a tiny bit of conduction going on in the Bud Toaster, cause the herb is sitting in the vial, and a little bit of herb is touching the sides and bottom of the vial - however i never grind, only finger shred, so large-ish pieces of herb in the vial ... not much conduction.

this is compared to the PAX = conduction only, where i had to mash the herb down against the heater plate for best extraction - i made a special mashing tool.

 

[stickstones]

I think I've found my favorite wire to use, so hopefully I start getting some consistent results. I'll get some stuff up next week.

___________________________________
EDIT:

@OF - I'm going hard at it with all these wires and multiple thermometers, and everything so far seems fine on other vapes, but I'm all over the place with this Air 2. I Frankensteined one configuration that got a nice conduction curve, but it was still 40 degrees too low on the readings. I'm gonna have fun over the weekend testing things out looking for consistency. I'd love it if you would break out your meter and any of your Arizer portables and see if you can get a consistent conduction curve. Then I could repeat your technique and results and put this to bed!

 

[bankxrupt]

Hey guys I'm looking into purchasing my first Arizer product. Initially I wanted a desktop unit to complement my mighty but most desktop vapes are bulky and expensive, I'm more into portables.

I like the ability to change batteries on the Air and the ease of use of loading up a stem along side easy cleaning, the mighty CU is often a pain to clean...

My idea was to buy a bunch of batteries and multiple stems ready to load and turning the Air into a chill session group vape to again complement the mighty during sessions with friends. Most of them combust and the the only problem with them is that vaporizing takes upwards 10-20 minutes per bowl and we often blast 3 - 4 back to back dosing capsules before they start to feel any effects. ( For reference after the first I'm plastered ) We do vape-bong and I was going to buy additional air attachments and and a new water piece. By the 5th bowl the batteries are almost dead, so replaceable batteries will do justice. The stems would be easier to clean and easier to swap out quickly if one gets too dirty or clogged during a session. Aside from the group setting, i would like a another cordless desktop vape to take around with me that offers similar flavor and effects given by the Mighty. Also I would like a general " back up " vape as I only have a pax 3 and a flip brick, I also dislike butane vapes, not my fancy,

Just wondering if the Air II fits to, what I need it for?
( Also VAS is twitching )

 

[UnevenPizza]

Just to set the tone here and make sure we are all on the same page...I don't care what the answer is to this heating question, I just want it answered once and for all. I find it unacceptable that knowledgeable and experienced people such as yourself, Randy, me and the engineers at Arizer, just to name a few, have differing views on something as simple as the type of heating used in a 6-year old vape technology. We all have too much influence in this industry to be on different pages on this, and it shouldn't be a mystery!

I've been telling people for years these vapes were conduction with very little, if any, convection going on based mostly on one test...letting a full bowl sit in one of them without hitting it until it shuts off. The bowl is always cooked - tada...conduction!

But now I'm doing a lot more testing, and deeper too, and we have a lot more vapes to compare to. Now that I have some actual test data on it I have a hard time reconciling the all-conduction model. The hybrid theory fits it perfectly and the conduction-only model doesn't anymore.

So, please let me know of any tests I can do to support either theory, and anything I can do differently in tests I'm already running. I'm all about testing them all out so we can get to the bottom of this. If test results sway me back to the conduction side, so be it, but it's gonna be data that gets me back there, not theories and analogies.

Thank you, and @OF, for the work you're doing. I wish I could reimburse you guys some way! Maybe once my woodcarving carreer takes off haha ;D

I was thinking, regarding the two theories you had about convection/conduction, instead of trying to prove either one is right/true, is there any way we can prove either one is false?
I'm only just starting to embark on a scientific carreer (very generous wording), but one of the things I heard/read is that we can never 100% prove something is true, just that it can't be falsified.

So maybe some way if it really was convection (or more convection than conduction), we could see certain results which we wouldn't if it was pure conduction.

I just woke up, so I may be missing something obvious though, or misunderstanding the post, or I may have not read an important sentence

I really wish we could get one of the Arizer engineers to hop in to this thread and confirm/disconfirm our suspicions, or reveal how they test the temperature (and with which devices). Maybe someone could persuade them to do an AMA on r/vaporents?

Maybe the have a huge (like 20x larger) replica of the Oven/entire vape, and because the bowl size is magnified by so much, they can have multiple points of measurement, which can then be re-calculated to what it would amount to in a smaller scale, in the actual vape.

That's the other thing I thought of when reading your posts (and I am sadly not that well versed when it comes to these types of things, I'm more of the 'ideas' guy haha ), but maybe it's possible to have heat sensors in different areas of the bowl/heating pathway and then merging the data to give some kind of total result (not necessarily average..I don't know!)

Also, can you guys control the ambient temperature? I only had the air 2 outdoors once (good thing it's a portable haha!) but I had to crank it up quite a bit higher (20-30°) than usual (it was very cold and windy)
I don't know if fluctuations in ambient room temperature can account for the kinds of variation you got in your measurements though.


Another thing that I thought of was if you guys do tests only with the dry stems, or also with GonGs?

I often use my OG Solo and the Air 2 through a bubbler, where it rests upside down. If I don't fill the bowl up too much, or pack it down a bit, it doesn't touch the bottom of the bowl, so theoretically it would only get a conduction effect from the glass, which appearantly is not so great at conducting heat?

I haven't ever let it sit for a full 12 minutes turned on at temp (I usually do around 380 this way) on purpose to see if the material turns brown, but I have forgot that I turned it on and let it sit for almost the entire session without taking a draw (haven't we all? ).
The herbs where definitely a little browner on the side that faces the heater, but they where also touching it a little. Also you can smell the terps if you just let it sit without taking a draw, which is one of the ways I get reminded that I have the vape on xD

I'll have to try that with some CBD flower, I don't feel as bad if I waste that in case anything goes wrong. Gonna write that onto my to-do list.

I also feel like if I take longer, slow-ish draws, I get better hits. For me this would speak for more of a convection effect, since if it was the metal part of the bowl that was heating the herbs, it would drop off and not be able to keep up with a long draw? Unless it can constantly increase the temp in relation to how much it cools off due to draw speed.
But then it would be heating the metal, which heats the air that passes over it, and that heated air then passes over the herbs, so also convective?

I think it's good to see this as one group of people trying to figure out the truth, or at least come closer to it (or finding out what is not true at least!) and not as 2 camps/sides fighting over which is true/better.

Obviously the vapes kick ass!
The vapour doesn't suddenly taste worse after 5 years because we find out it actually isn't a convection vape or even a hybrid

 

[stickstones]

I think it's good to see this as one group of people trying to figure out the truth, or at least come closer to it (or finding out what is not true at least!) and not as 2 camps/sides fighting over which is true/better.

Obviously the vapes kick ass!
The vapour doesn't suddenly taste worse after 5 years because we find out it actually isn't a convection vape or even a hybrid

Right on...thanks for joining the discussion! I love this community. It’s always proven to me to be a good place to work stuff like this out.

Now I gotta factor in radiation. That nice conduction curve I got once was with a dangly wire touching nothing. This might just keep getting deeper and require more work!

 

[UnevenPizza]

Right on...thanks for joining the discussion! I love this community. It’s always proven to me to be a good place to work stuff like this out.

Yep! I've only been around since this year, but I can say it's the most positive community I've been in (at least the threads I've seen/posted in). Much more chill than reddit haha.

I knew FC existed for a while though, but never checked it out. I think that was when the Solo came out and it was the exciting new device. Someone had posted a guide on how to change the battery in it, which always fascinated me.

And yeah, I love being proved wrong, that's how we learn. If someone proves "Yep, the Solo/Air lineup are basically only conduction, not as you thought convection." then I will be glad, for I am now smarter

 

[OF]

Also, can you guys control the ambient temperature? I only had the air 2 outdoors once (good thing it's a portable haha!) but I had to crank it up quite a bit higher (20-30°) than usual (it was very cold and windy)

I also feel like if I take longer, slow-ish draws, I get better hits. For me this would speak for more of a convection effect, since if it was the metal part of the bowl that was heating the herbs, it would drop off and not be able to keep up with a long draw? Unless it can constantly increase the temp in relation to how much it cools off due to draw speed.

This one is kind of a tough nut without resorting heavily on formal Thermodynamics I think. But I think you just came up with two other observations/arguments in favor of Conduction?

Taking the unit outdoors (lower temperature, more loss due to wind) doesn't effect the heater temperature, right? It only takes a bit longer to heat up. Convection, such as it is, is not really effected? However heat losses are now higher for the two reasons above (conduction to colder outside and wind adding to losses). So you have to crank up the power (improve conduction heating) to compensate? If the correctly heated air was doing all the work this would not be so?

Convection vapes thrive on high flow hits. Have you ever tried say VG or Evolution/T1/Cera from TV? Pulling hard brings LOTS of superheated air in bringing lots of heat to make lots of vapor. Just the opposite of what you suggest? If, OTOH, the air is not being fully heated (above vaping temperature) the effect would be just what you describe?

Thermodynamics is the study of heat FLOW. Not static situations, but how heat moves. In those studies the load receives heat to make vapor by conduction. No flow of air is necessary to heat the load up, it browns nicely by conduction alone? Heat up VG or TV products but don't draw on them and that doesn't happen. The heat stays in the heat exchanger in VG or the thermal core in TV stuff. Since they have no conduction going on (for practical purposes) and no flow to make convection happen no vapor?

I think it would be swell to have a rep from the maker on to 'answer the questions we're demanding answers to' but I'd sure advise against it given 'our' history of abusing such guys who come to help. We drove one maker out of business (PD) and ran off no less that THREE guys from Ascent? Polite is not one of our collective strong suits. Arizer has taken an 'official position' on this (it's both and you can fine tune it to an extent) any rep they send here will have to support that or work on his resume? Call me cynical if you must, but I smell a Sales, not Scientific influence?

Perhaps there's a clue with Ed's stems? You need more heat conducted in because larger heat losses up the metal stem must be overcome. Convection doesn't see stuff like that typically? You'd just hit a little harder......

In the end it doesn't really matter, a 'rose by any other name', when it comes to making vapor. How is not as important as what? But if an incorrect/inaccurate claim is made that becomes an issue IMO if it's not technically honest. We don't have a big enough temperature difference to support Convection, let alone Radiation as the way we move the large numbers of calories we need into the load. It's about moving heat energy around, you can't use 'static thinking' to explain it. How does the energy get from the hotter place we don't need it to the cooler place we do? I suggest it does by conduction ''by exclusion" as you suggest (since Thermodynamics rules out Convection and Radiation). As Sherlock Holmes said, 'if you eliminate all the other possibilities, the one remaining one, no matter how unlikely, has to be the solution'. The Thermodynamics formulas for heat transfer RATES for Convection and Radiation both include temperature factors that say the transfer is dependent on the difference between source and load. A source with the same basic temperature of the load (like we have here with a 390F cup) cannot move enough energy with modest differences, none at all when there is no difference.

Clergy amused themselves through the Dark and Middle ages in their cloisters by debating the number of angels able to dance on the head of a single pin and such. IMO we should avoid such traps.

Regards to all.

OF

 

[UnevenPizza]

I just let a bowl of some (0.09g) fairly dry CBD flower sit in my GonG upside down (in a bubbler) at 185°C (~365°F) for 12 minutes, and it was pretty brown /dried out.
I packed it down with my finger so that there was space between the herb and the bottom of the chamber.

It was pretty dry to start with, but I guess it does get roasted even if you don't take draws.

Probably depends on the temp + moisture content of the material.

Since I felt bad for basically wasting a bowl (ok, it wasn't a waste since it shows that it cooks the herb even when you don't inhale, but you know what I mean ), I had another with some of the same flower and noticed somthing I already had when I first got the Air 2.
The first few hits where really big and tasty. Then at about the 4th or 5th I got almost nothing, then after about 6-7 minutes (or sometime around the last third of the session) I got consistently decent hits, which got a bit whispier towards the end.

I don't recall noticing that with my OG Solo, but I may be mistaken..too much experimentation over the years

This one is kind of a tough nut without resorting heavily on formal Thermodynamics I think. But I think you just came up with two other observations/arguments in favor of Conduction?

Taking the unit outdoors (lower temperature, more loss due to wind) doesn't effect the heater temperature, right? It only takes a bit longer to heat up. Convection, such as it is, is not really effected? However heat losses are now higher for the two reasons above (conduction to colder outside and wind adding to losses). So you have to crank up the power (improve conduction heating) to compensate? If the correctly heated air was doing all the work this would not be so?

Convection vapes thrive on high flow hits. Have you ever tried say VG or Evolution/T1/Cera from TV? Pulling hard brings LOTS of superheated air in bringing lots of heat to make lots of vapor. Just the opposite of what you suggest? If, OTOH, the air is not being fully heated (above vaping temperature) the effect would be just what you describe?

Thermodynamics is the study of heat FLOW. Not static situations, but how heat moves. In those studies the load receives heat to make vapor by conduction. No flow of air is necessary to heat the load up, it browns nicely by conduction alone? Heat up VG or TV products but don't draw on them and that doesn't happen. The heat stays in the heat exchanger in VG or the thermal core in TV stuff. Since they have no conduction going on (for practical purposes) and no flow to make convection happen no vapor?

I think it would be swell to have a rep from the maker on to 'answer the questions we're demanding answers to' but I'd sure advise against it given 'our' history of abusing such guys who come to help. We drove one maker out of business (PD) and ran off no less that THREE guys from Ascent? Polite is not one of our collective strong suits. Arizer has taken an 'official position' on this (it's both and you can fine tune it to an extent) any rep they send here will have to support that or work on his resume? Call me cynical if you must, but I smell a Sales, not Scientific influence?

Perhaps there's a clue with Ed's stems? You need more heat conducted in because larger heat losses up the metal stem must be overcome. Convection doesn't see stuff like that typically? You'd just hit a little harder......

In the end it doesn't really matter, a 'rose by any other name', when it comes to making vapor. How is not as important as what? But if an incorrect/inaccurate claim is made that becomes an issue IMO if it's not technically honest. We don't have a big enough temperature difference to support Convection, let alone Radiation as the way we move the large numbers of calories we need into the load. It's about moving heat energy around, you can't use 'static thinking' to explain it. How does the energy get from the hotter place we don't need it to the cooler place we do? I suggest it does by conduction ''by exclusion" as you suggest (since Thermodynamics rules out Convection and Radiation). As Sherlock Holmes said, 'if you eliminate all the other possibilities, the one remaining one, no matter how unlikely, has to be the solution'. The Thermodynamics formulas for heat transfer RATES for Convection and Radiation both include temperature factors that say the transfer is dependent on the difference between source and load. A source with the same basic temperature of the load (like we have here with a 390F cup) cannot move enough energy with modest differences, none at all when there is no difference.

Clergy amused themselves through the Dark and Middle ages in their cloisters by debating the number of angels able to dance on the head of a single pin and such. IMO we should avoid such traps.

Regards to all.

OF

Again, great explanation! I also really only am curious for the sake of knowing, even if it's 98% conduction, it's great quality vapor.

I didn't know about the history of service reps here, I guess that's not happening, then .

 

[OF]

I just let a bowl of some (0.09g) fairly dry CBD flower sit in my GonG upside down (in a bubbler) at 185°C (~365°F) for 12 minutes, and it was pretty brown /dried out.
I packed it down with my finger so that there was space between the herb and the bottom of the chamber.

I didn't know about the history of service reps here, I guess that's not happening, then .

Yep, Conduction will do that all right. Now for the run part? The THC is still there! Where could it have gone? I wasn't destroyed by heat that low, it simply condensed somewhere handy. Either elsewhere in a momentarily cooler part of the herb or up the stem when it cooled off enough. Hit it and you'll be rewarded even though it looks 'spent'. We saw this in PD. Some of us would get a bit drifty and put a loaded stem in to heat (normally several seconds) by conduction and pass out, wonder off to get a pizza or something else more important at the moment. You could come back the next morning (PD runs 24/7 often) and find very dark ABV that still delivers potent hits.

Absent any 'forced' air flow (Convection) the load still gets heated to magic temperature by Conduction?

Yeah, we can be brutal. And nasty to our guests all right. I'm sure you can imagine how that works. One fellow couldn't take the pettiness and egos picking fights. And Ascent went through at least 3 Reps. I had extensive dealings with one (he is stationed in China at the factory but is a local originally). To say were were demanding of him is a big old understatement. Hopefully others will join us and improve the discourse (Rene, maker of VapMan is a great example of this, check him/it out?) but I could not honestly recommend it to anyone. Too many anonymous folks in too many Parent's basements with agendas?

Still, we have each other..........

Regards to all,

OF

 

[UnevenPizza]

I'll have to remember that! I kind of thought it was wasted.

I was just thinking, maybe the first part of the vapor you inhale is produced by conduction, but after that heat has been "taken" from the conductive material, the air passing by the heating element gets warmed up and produces the rest of it?

I'm gonna have to look for the "official" arizer explanation haha.

I could only see myself getting upset/angry with a rep if they where knowingly bullshitting.

In other news, has anyone noticed their short stem collecting a lot/big globs of condensate/honey?

I don't feel like I've been using my A2 that much, but I seem to be getting much more buildup than with my solo.

This is after one month of medium use, probably an average of 1 hit per day.

I have been leaving the stem (with avb emptied out) in the vape though after I'm done, so that seems like it has something to do with it.

 

[OF]

I'll have to remember that! I kind of thought it was wasted.

I was just thinking, maybe the first part of the vapor you inhale is produced by conduction, but after that heat has been "taken" from the conductive material, the air passing by the heating element gets warmed up and produces the rest of it?



I could only see myself getting upset/angry with a rep if they where knowingly bullshitting.

Not wasted, just hiding...... Check it out. Fun stuff, not what you'd expect?

What I think most guys don't realize is making vapor is Work (as it's traditionally defined in Science). Changing to vapor takes energy (the definition of Work). You don't just have to heat it to 390F but you need to keep supplying heat after that to make vapor. Like boiling water on the stove. The element (electric) gets very hot and conducts heat to the pan which heats. Fire in gas stoves does the same by Convection and Radiation. The pan of water heats. Each gram of water needs one calorie to rise one degree C. Count the calories going in (and account for losses and the pan) and you know how hot it's getting. XX degrees per minute. But, when we reach 100C (or 212F in the civilized world.....) the water stops getting any hotter? Instead all the energy going in, that moments ago was making it hotter, now goes into making vapor and the temperature of the load is constant as long as there's water left? Remove the heat and the boiling (conversion to vapor) stops but the temperature is still the same 'boiling hot'.

Same thing happens in vapes. Of course, the same rules are in play? In say Convection, hot air, hotter than 390F by a fair bit, adds heat to the load raising the temperature (typically at a linear rate, give or take) until evaporation starts after which all the energy that's still going in (that used to make it hotter) now makes vapor instead. That's real energy, doing real work, it has to be 'made up' or production will stop and temperature drop due to losses. Making vapor demands a constant input of energy. Even though the temperature isn't going up (it's set by the 'boiling point' of the load) Work is still going on. This 'hidden' heat is called "latent heat". It takes a bit over 4 Joules of heat energy to raise a gram of water on degree C IIRC. 40 to 41 takes the same as 98 to 99C. However, making a gram of steam out of it takes over 2000J. Enough to heat the liquid most of the way to boiling from room temperature? That's real Work. And this also explains why steam burn are so nasty. When the vapor condenses again that 2000J rears it's ugly head like 'right now'. Very bad karma.

BTW, there's another 'logic trap' out there in all this, our favorite vapor isn't really a vapor (that is it's not the gas phase of THC the way steam is a phase of water). It's really an aerosol (finely divided solid suspended in air, like smoke or fog) The individual particles (a few microns typically) are, of course, obeying Science, they go solid as they cool but they do go solid again. Unlike vapor which remains individual molecules in a soup of other gas molecules.....all at the same temperature, give or take.

Yeah, guys can get pretty rude when they even think they're getting mistreated. Especially if nobody knows who they are or where they live. Facts aside, it's easy to lash out when you can do so from a coward's position.....even when you're dead wrong? Paranoia can even come into play? And we've got a whole lot of monkeys at a whole lot of typewriters going on here......... For those not 'in the know' on that comment it's a 'standard lesson' in Statistics. The idea is 'if you put enough monkeys at enough typewriters you'll eventually get Shakespeare'. Nothing derogatory to either the monkeys or the typewriters. Of course. Or Shakespeare come to think of it.

Works the other way too, I think?

Or, as Murphy put it so well, 'if something can happen, it will happen' eventually. He also postulated 'nature loves the hidden flaw' which also seems true.......

Regards,

OF

 

[UnevenPizza]

Hmm , I feel like I'm being made smarter without even knowing it, reading your Posts @OF xD

That sounds to me like the challenge in designing a vape isn't getting "something" to heat up, but to balance the heat/energy dispensed against the inhalation.

That would explain why with for example an Extreme Q you could (as a manufacturer) guarantee that the airflow is always the same because of the fan speed, and if you use the balloon, the only variable would be the temp you set on the device...I guess it just depends what the display reads, if that is the temp the heater is set to or the heat that will be flowing over the material eventually.

Sorry if this is all old news to you. I feel a little like someone who's seen the first season of a really good TV-Show and is all giddy, but you guys are already on the 6th Season ;D

BTW, there's another 'logic trap' out there in all this, our favorite vapor isn't really a vapor (that is it's not the gas phase of THC the way steam is a phase of water). It's really an aerosol (finely divided solid suspended in air, like smoke or fog) The individual particles (a few microns typically) are, of course, obeying Science, they go solid as they cool but they do go solid again. Unlike vapor which remains individual molecules in a soup of other gas molecules.....all at the same temperature, give or take.


Regards,

OF

So it's suspended in a sort of cushion of Gas phase air molecules?
And also:
"it's an aerosol."
So, our vapes are actually aerosol creators..aerosol-vaporizers..aerosol-izer...a-rizer..


I've kind of accepted that there is anonymous hate, but yeah if it's anonymous I feel I can easy let it go, since there's no weight to it.
Of course I know we're all people, and I could never see myself cursing someone and just being rude in text form, maybe when I was still drinking? But even then I don't think so.

As the Comedy Trio Stella once rapped:
"Fighting's not good activity, let's use our creativity!"
(From the "Friendship song" )

Peace yo!

 

[stickstones]

I did some testing over the weekend...this stuff is fun!

I played with a lot of wires and configurations and at one point was able to get what looked like a conduction curve from a j-hook attached to a 14mm gong stem with the temp probe pushed all the way through and dangling in the empty bowl after a 3 minute heat soak using a temp probe from one meter used on a newer meter. I haven't been able to replicate this curve again.

So I started by calibrating the probe I wanted to use...one with a small ball on the end that would fit through the stems' holes. Turns out it registers about 2 degrees F higher than an ice bath, so that's close enough for me.

Then I used the Herbalizer to baseline test some temps so I would know what to expect in the Air 2. Here are two curves from that test.

The first curve is with the probe in an empty bowl at 390 and the fan on. It started to flatten out around 340 to 360 before the fan shut off, so it appears readings on an empty bowl can be expected to be 40 to 60 degrees lower than actual. The second curve was with hemp fiber in the bowl, and the temp gets higher. Bowls with hemp fiber in them read 10 to 20 degrees lower than expected.

Then I went straight to the Air 2 with a hemp fiber bowl and got this curve. The wire was run through the black mouthpiece through the stem and into the bowl, set on 390. For all these curves, the temp starts to spike when I start my draw and then falls off when the draw stopped.

This session curved out like when I first started posting this stuff. It reads about 20 to 30 degrees lower than expected and even after four hits would still cool off to 270 between hits.

So for shits and giggles I did it with an empty bowl at 390 and got this curve:

Similar results, just 50 degrees lower on the readings, which is consistent with the difference I saw on Herbie, only more exaggerated. After the 3rd hit I let it sit until it auto-shut off.

Finally, I did one with it sitting idle for over 7 minutes before one hit just to see what a heat soak would do, and this was on an empty bowl so it reads pretty low.

This looks like mostly convection heating to me. My only hesitancy is the one rogue conduction curve I got last week. It was with what I would consider an inferior configuration, but it was there nonetheless.

If anyone has any thoughts about how to test, especially if you see any problems with my methodology, please chime in. I'm happy to run variations or repeats on this vape or others.

I'll also need to get confirmation from someone else before I feel good about these tests. Science needs to be repeatable, right? Who wants to jump in and do some readings?

 

[metaknight]

I like that curve, it's a lot more accurate to the temperature readout. So maybe we can use this information to create an ideal load temperature, knowing that the load will be about 20-30F lower than the digital readout.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

This looks like mostly convection heating to me.

i agree --- convection heating.

now that you're calibrated, how about some curves with the temp probe smashed against the inside surface of the bowl, and against the surface of the heater wall (outside the bowl) unless the bowl can fit tight against the heater wall, so the temps will be the same.

 

[stickstones]

I like that curve, it's a lot more accurate to the temperature readout. So maybe we can use this information to create an ideal load temperature, knowing that the load will be about 20-30F lower than the digital readout.

This still needs a little more work, but I'm with you. I still need to compare a load of ground herb to the hemp fiber to see if the fiber is truly a good way to fake a loaded bowl. I'll be doing that some tonight.

Thanks @Hippie Dickie - good suggestions...I'll give those a run. I'll do one against the inside of the glass bowl. The bowl is held in place by the tension ring, but there is still some contact...it doesn't just float in there, so I'll probably not be able to wedge it between the glass and stainless steel. Would a curve with the probe in direct contact with the bottom of the heater be as good?

 

[OF]

If anyone has any thoughts about how to test, especially if you see any problems with my methodology, please chime in. I'm happy to run variations or repeats on this vape or others.

Basically what I saw and would expect/predict. I suggest the 'fifty or so degrees of offset' is an artifact of heat sinking up the leads (locally the herb is colder because of it, it 'catches up with the average' once heat starts moving about in the load with the hit). It comes up in temperature to match what the rest of the load was at at idle. We know the load is more than 280F 'just sitting' as it turns dark over time?

I suggest you repeat the experiment with a different T/C with larger or smaller diameter leads. I'd expect the offset to change in proportion to the cross sections. That is fat leads will read lower in the same position?

Or not.

OF

 

[stickstones]

actually, @Hippie Dickie the probe can get squashed in there with the bowl and stem. I'll give that a try.

I suggest you repeat the experiment with a different T/C with larger or smaller diameter leads. I'd expect the offset to change in proportion to the cross sections. That is fat leads will read lower in the same position?

I have several like the one I'm using now, one with a bigger ball (the one that was in the jhook configuration), and one that is two wires at the end with no balls on them. Would this two-wire one qualify as being smaller than the one I'm using now, or is that a different type of probe altogether? I didn't see anything in the manual to answer this question for me.

EDIT:

@OF - the larger temp difference was when the probe was in an empty bowl just dangling in the air. the smaller temp difference was with hemp fiber in the bowl. I'm not sure if that makes sense with the heat sinking you are talking about or not. Hopefully that detail helps a little. Does that support the wicking away of heat?

 

[stickstones]

This one deserves is own post despite the edit time. T1, or the red line, is the T/C in a hemp bowl, while T2, or the green line, is the T/C between the oven and the bowl. This is a great representation of the combo that is going on here.

EDIT----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Check this out. This is a real session (not hemp fiber) I had with the Air 2 starting at 390 for 5 hits then bumping up to 428 til auto-shutoff. Herb makes a difference! I'm gonna record all my test sessions like this from now on. Same as the graph above...draws start when the red line spikes.

 

[OF]

actually, Would this two-wire one qualify as being smaller than the one I'm using now, or is that a different type of probe altogether? I didn't see anything in the manual to answer this question for me.

EDIT:

[USER=7683]@OF - the larger temp difference was when the probe was in an empty bowl just dangling in the air. the smaller temp difference was with hemp fiber in the bowl. I'm not sure if that makes sense with the heat sinking you are talking about or not. Hopefully that detail helps a little. Does that support the wicking away of heat?[/USER]

No, sorry for not being more clear. All probes of the same type (in our case "K") have the same two metals (or alloys) used (although purity can be a problems sometimes) and therefore normally give the same results. However, in cases like we have, heatsinking can be tested by using different gauge wires, lots are available, for instance:
[URL]https://www.omega.com/pptst/XC_K_TC_WIRE.html[/URL]

Typical sizes are things like 20 Gauge (about .030 inches, like a paper clip), but you can also use 40 Gauge (about .003 inches instead). If the thin leads 'read higher' it's an indication that significant heat is indeed being conducted away and neither reading is accurate. That is leads of 'zero thickness' would read still higher.

BTW, there is nothing scared about the weld or bead. Or any jacket. I know it's counter intuitive but the weld plays no part in the signal really. It's a short circuit, but definition the two pieces of metal at the weld are at the same voltage. The signal (actually two, one for each lead which compared in the reader) is actually developed along the lead as the temperature drops. Heat loss up the leads, ironically, is necessary to the system. Anyway, within limits you can twist, clamp, mount under a handy screw or connect them most any way and get the same answers (no weld needed). In fact you can weld (or clamp....) the two wires to something different (say spot weld them to the cup in two different spots) and it will work fine. In that case the SS 'contribution' to the reading will happen to each lead and will therefore cancel.

It's the Chromel and Alumel (very Nickle rich alloys) of the Type K that does the magic. Different types have different metals (and therefore settings and useful temperature ranges). Platinum/Platinum-Rhodium is mighty tough stuff for instance. Able to deal with caustic places and very high temperatures. Good way to kill your budget too. Platinum wire is mighty expensive to go stringing around....... Gold is a lot cheaper.

And yes, that observation that the empty bowl (with poorer conduction in 'heat soak') reading a bigger drop than when loaded with anything that will improve that transfer is exactly what I'd expect. Consider the walls are the same temperature in both cases? At least the cup is. Why should one reading differ from the other if there was not indeed [B]heat flow[/B] going on? [B]You only get drops (changes) in Thermodynamics where there are flows of heat[/B]. No flow, same temperature......

OF

 

[Stu]

This one deserves is own post despite the edit time. T1, or the red line, is the T/C in a hemp bowl, while T2, or the green line, is the T/C between the oven and the bowl. This is a great representation of the combo that is going on here.

EDIT----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Check this out. This is a real session (not hemp fiber) I had with the Air 2 starting at 390 for 5 hits then bumping up to 428 til auto-shutoff. Herb makes a difference! I'm gonna record all my test sessions like this from now on. Same as the graph above...draws start when the red line spikes.

@stickstones did you sneak a final puff after auto-shutoff?

 

[thx1138]

@stickstones - you created a niche for yourself with this, the likes of which I have never seen. I can envision you doing this with alot of vapes.