Are clouds of vapor counterproductive?

[Snappo]

Holding in does not help get you higher. This is just physical fact.

My experience tells me this is true. I never hold in for more than a few seconds (maybe 5 at most) and I get the effects I'm after. Accordingly, I no longer look to take huge lung-busting hits, as all they really ever did was have me choking for air and coughing stupidly. I certainly didn't feel all that great after all that. Taking smaller consciously metered hits allows me to dial in the measured effect I want. What I usually don't want is to be blasted into the next galaxy by way of asphyxiation, expatiation, and thc overload. Older & wiser I now enjoy the subtleties afforded by moderation vs. gluttony.

EDIT: I suppose it's possible that holding in a large amount of vapor may result in some of the excess to settle on the interior lining of the lungs only to be absorbed at some point gradually thereafter.

 

[slick]

Well here's one more piece of the puzzle to speculate on:

" In contrast, breathholding for 10 or 20 sec versus 0 sec increased plasma delta 9-tetrahydro-cannabinol levels but not CO boost or subjective effects."
edit for clarity: subjective effects = self reported high

Only the abstract so it's not very detailed. This part it seems to imply that holding it DOES absorb more, but maybe not to the point where it makes a difference.

http://m.jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/272/2/560.short

Sigh....SUPER EDIT:

Another study, seems to be getting more concrete:

"Typical marijuana effects (increased heart rate, increased ratings of “high” and impaired memory performance) were observed under each of the breathhold conditions, but there was little evidence that response to marijuana was a function of breathhold duration."

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0091305789905340

 

[pakalolo]

This comes into play in the whole "cough to get off" debate, as the lung walls are stretched during coughs, exposing fresh surface area.

Coughing is the way your lungs expel anything foreign to your system. According to the Mayo Clinic, "the velocity of air from a vigorous cough through the nearly closed vocal cords can approach 500 miles per hour." This is exactly the opposite of helping to absorb anything.

 

[archangelz001]

Getting closer to understanding this question.

The reason holding a draw in won't get you higher is because when you hold your breath carbon dioxide accumulates inside you which prevents the absorption of oxygen by the blood. Your blood cells need to be free of CO2 in order absorb more O2 and the THC in your vapor.

Our inhalations bring oxygen into the lungs, which gets absorbed into the blood and carried throughout the body. The oxygen is used or made into the energy we need to break down food, maintain bodily functions and do all physical activity. What then remains becomes carbon dioxide or CO2, a waste product. This residual CO2 is carried back into your lungs by your circulating blood and released when you exhale. This process of course will continue for as long as you keep breathing but when you hold your breath, the carbon dioxide accumulates inside you with nowhere to go preventing oxygen from being absorbed by the blood.

When you hold your breath the ongoing accumulation of carbon dioxide in your cells, in your blood and lungs will eventually irritate and trigger impulses from the respiratory center part of your brain. Rising levels of carbon dioxide signal the body to breathe and ensure our unconscious and autonomous respiration. The body has the ability to detect these C02 levels with great accuracy and relies on them to regulate our respiration, so that we don't have to.

Excellent post. As a retired RN, I believe this explanation is the best in the thread.

 

[Joel W.]

EDIT: I suppose it's possible that holding in a large amount of vapor may result in some of the excess to settle on the interior lining of the lungs only to be absorbed at some point gradually thereafter.

This seems plausible to me also if the above is true.

 

[Scott A]

Just to be honest, as a cloud chaser I dont really care if I waste medicine or not. The actives that I like are only available at high temps and at high temps it is inevitable that you will get thicker vapor or "clouds".

 

[His_Highness]

Getting closer to understanding this question.

The reason holding a draw in won't get you higher is because when you hold your breath carbon dioxide accumulates inside you which prevents the absorption of oxygen by the blood. Your blood cells need to be free of CO2 in order absorb more O2 and the THC in your vapor.

Our inhalations bring oxygen into the lungs, which gets absorbed into the blood and carried throughout the body. The oxygen is used or made into the energy we need to break down food, maintain bodily functions and do all physical activity. What then remains becomes carbon dioxide or CO2, a waste product. This residual CO2 is carried back into your lungs by your circulating blood and released when you exhale. This process of course will continue for as long as you keep breathing but when you hold your breath, the carbon dioxide accumulates inside you with nowhere to go preventing oxygen from being absorbed by the blood.

When you hold your breath the ongoing accumulation of carbon dioxide in your cells, in your blood and lungs will eventually irritate and trigger impulses from the respiratory center part of your brain. Rising levels of carbon dioxide signal the body to breathe and ensure our unconscious and autonomous respiration. The body has the ability to detect these C02 levels with great accuracy and relies on them to regulate our respiration, so that we don't have to.

Based on the above it seems that the L.I.T. technique would add some additional absorption then. The premise being that on the initial intake absorption occurs quickly and CO2 signals the end/exhale. If you exhale only to the point of being able to take in more oxygen to set off another round of absorption, and there is something left from the initial hit to absorb, you should get more in the bloodstream.

To me it sounds like just holding in the initial hit as long as you can isn't going to add anything since everything I've read in this thread implies that after a short time the transfer has maxed out and you have to exhale. Controlling the point of exhale so you aren't out of breath and can hold in the residual goodies long enough to take in more oxygen might allow for another absorption cycle of whatever is left. So ... it sounds like the critical factor is whether there are any residual goodies from the initial hit to warrant a re-inhale.

 

[cybrguy]

Right, I think. Smaller hits (not huge) are likely better, or less wasteful, but bigger hits can lead to more absorption from "reinhales" occurring during the exhale.
I think one of the more useful things that we don't know is how long the lung surface needs to recover and be able to reabsorb after absorbing. Would another hit 10 or 15 seconds later be past the recovery time period and "worthwhile", or should someone wait more time like a minute between hits?

 

[Michel]

I found 2 different studies on thc resorption, one of them even about resorption over time. On German, I'll give you the sources anyway and let google translate some interesting passages. Sadly they did not always include exact measurement methods and leaves some questions unanswered:

"As demonstrated in a recent study , the duration of breath holding does not affect so much on the state of intoxication as is commonly believed among marijuana users . The subjects had been instructed by the inhalation of smoke breath for a different length of time ( 0 , 10 or 20 seconds ) to stop . Although found with prolonged breath holding ( 10 and 20 seconds respectively over 0 sec . ) , A slightly higher plasma levels of delta-9 - THC , but it had no effect on the subjective state of intoxication ."

Source: https://translate.googleusercontent...e.html&usg=ALkJrhjkzMQj-w3u-twOUUwCFCwyZ2RptQ

The 2nd study is a book from Moeller, Laux and Kapfhammer. It's called "psychiatry and psychotherapy ". On page 193 they say the lungs are able to do a nearly complete resorption with each inhalation. Sadly no time frame (breath holding) included, but I would guess test persons where simply "smoking" joints in a regular way. (1g MJ with 5% in a joint was the dosage, 50mg. In the blood system where 25-50% of the inhaled activities depending on the test person)

So I have to assume I could be wrong with using L.I.T. and @steama has a "better", less "harmful" or at least a technique with same efficiency. I'll use L.I.T anyways in the future when I'm low on material. Since I'm luckily nearly never low on material I'll just be happy that I can apparently change my drawing style to a more comfortable one; simply deep inhale without holding breath like I did when combusting. A deep inhale will cause some re-breathing anyways. I'll see if I'll use more material per day when not holding breath at all...

But I'm still confused. If this all is true, all the talk about wasteful vapes and techniques was "nonsense"? Every inhalation style results in the same resorption rate? Is there a maximum of thc per inhalation? What's with the studies saying 1/3 is exhaled? Isn't this depending on the inhaled amount of vapor or activities, too? When someone dabs 0.5g BHO in one hit, how much does he exhale? Wouldn't re-breathing such a large amount of pure thc increase resorption or make a second person high? Or are human lungs able to handle such amounts of vapor? Just a mind play....
But I feel like I'm derailing know. I'll do some testings. For science. How much back-to-back-bowls with different breath holding times until I'll pass out . I will sacrifice some week-ends and start this Saturday with breath holding for 10 secs... At least I won't pass out first testing day because of lacking oxygen! sunday no breath holding at all. Next Saturday 20 secs. Then 30 secs with re-breathing and so on...

 

[cybrguy]

Good stuff, @Michel , thank you.

 

[grokit]

As somebody that's currently in the camp of those that prefer "lung-busters of super thick vapor", I can certainly appreciate this thread. Placebo maybe but I doubt it, it's all that works for me. I can sip on log stems all day long and not get the level of effects I get from just a couple sublimator or infinity hits.

 

[Snappo]

As somebody that's currently in the camp of those that prefer "lung-busters of super thick vapor", I can certainly appreciate this thread. Placebo maybe but I doubt it, it's all that works for me. I can sip on log stems all day long and not get the level of effects I get from just a couple sublimator or infinity hits.

Agreed! But for me, a few sips gets me where I want to be just fine - I simply don't enjoy getting blasted out of orbit ...I actually find it unpleasant and counter-productive. That said, I do like knowing that my vapes are capable of producing thick high intensity vapor, as all of them are (see sig), but dialing them down is how I usually do it. Now, to contradict myself on that score, I am in the process of having a custom Underdog made wherein the new standard model heater core will be adjusted to be hotter than most will ever need, just for those occasions when I want a faster even more powerful blast or two, especially for herb mixed with a drop or two of oil or concentrate - always good to have on hand, IMO ...and for friends who have a much higher tolerance and need for combustion-like vapor density, without the combustion of course.

 

[grokit]

...and for friends who have a much higher tolerance and need for combustion-like vapor density, without the combustion of course.

I suppose I'm one of those types

I do like the fact that 35% of my thc is going back out into the atmosphere, perhaps we can achieve lasting change in the world if we can achieve a critical mass of fully-decarboxylated thc in the air

 

[cybrguy]

I dated a woman many years ago who didn't like to smoke pot, but liked it when I shared my exhausted hits with her. Another opportunity for a kiss, I'm sure, but also a cough free way to buzz. And she never failed to get high.
Now, admittedly that was exhaust from combustion, but I did get someone high the other night with exhaust from vaping. There is no doubt in my mind that there are PLENTY of actives in that exhaust.

 

[421]

I suppose I'm one of those types

I do like the fact that 35% of my thc is going back out into the atmosphere, perhaps we can achieve lasting change in the world if we can achieve a critical mass of fully-decarboxylated thc in the air

420ppm thc in the atmosphere

 

[Jared]

Holding in does not help get you higher. This is just physical fact.

That simply isn't true and anyone with a vaporizer and a decent lung capacity can test it. Take a hit, instantly exhale. Then take a hit, breathe some fresh air, and hold it for as long as you comfortably can (at least ten seconds.) If you are anything like me (and plenty of other people I've talked to about it) you will get SIGNIFICANTLY higher when you hold it in. And it isn't oxygen deprivation.

Also as for clouds being a waste? Maybe so but I would imagine it's miniscule. I can't get nearly as high with a vaporizer that can't produce clouds as I can with one that can.

 

[ginolicious]

I get higher quicker if I see clouds. Why? Because I took a bigger hit.

I can achieve the same high sipping slowly and not seeing vapor. However a big pull for 15 seconds will provide more clouds and stronger vapor compared to that of a 5 second pull. However, I can achieve that "15 second pull high" by taking small pulls, just takes longer.

Sometimes I prefer seeing a nice cloud, so generally my first few pulls on my Rise 2.0 are long to get that nice initial effect and then to keep sipping to keep the high train rolling.

 

[His_Highness]

That simply isn't true and anyone with a vaporizer and a decent lung capacity can test it. Take a hit, instantly exhale. Then take a hit, breathe some fresh air, and hold it for as long as you comfortably can (at least ten seconds.) If you are anything like me (and plenty of other people I've talked to about it) you will get SIGNIFICANTLY higher when you hold it in. And it isn't oxygen deprivation.

Also as for clouds being a waste? Maybe so but I would imagine it's miniscule. I can't get nearly as high with a vaporizer that can't produce clouds as I can with one that can.

Two points: Disclaimer...Your mileage may vary because my tolerance may be lower than yours....

I know I get higher by holding it in, exhaling till I see a little vapor and then inhaling it all again. Rinse and repeat till no vapor shows up on exhale. I used to hold it in till I felt the affects of oxygen deprivation but after reading so many posts on how it doesn't take more than 5 seconds to absorb efficiently I just hold for a 5 second count. 5 seconds is way less than it takes to get light headed from lack of oxygen.

Clouds and higher highs.....I know I get higher quicker when I'm cloud based BUT I can get just as high without getting cloudy and here's the example....I got sucker punched by my MFLB this weekend. I rarely see any kind of serious clouds with the MFLB. The reason I didn't see it coming this weekend is because I've been using the Solo as my daily driver for so long I forgot how damn sneaky the magic flight can be. I was in a rush and the MFLB was already filled with a half used trench so I decided to hit it rather than fill and warm up the Solo. I took 4-5 small hits off the MFLB, never saw even a wispy trail and at hit 4 thought to myself 'I'm not getting a buzz, I'll have to come back later and use the Solo'.....10 minutes later the happy kicked in hard and I was reminded not to underestimate the lack of a visible vapor trail.

 

[lwien]

I got sucker punched by my MFLB this weekend. I rarely see any kind of serious clouds with the MFLB. The reason I didn't see it coming this weekend is because I've been using the Solo as my daily driver for so long I forgot how damn sneaky the magic flight can be. I was in a rush and the MFLB was already filled with a half used trench so I decided to hit it rather than fill and warm up the Solo. I took 4-5 small hits off the MFLB, never saw even a wispy trail and at hit 4 thought to myself 'I'm not getting a buzz, I'll have to come back later and use the Solo'.....10 minutes later the happy kicked in hard and I was reminded not to underestimate the lack of a visible vapor trail.

The vape signature difference when switching from the Solo to the MFLB could be an important factor in how high you got when you made the switch. I know that whenever I switch vaporizers, I kind of get the same affect as when I switch strains.............that is, getting much higher than I did previously.

 

[phooka]

if you are vaporizing, and you're blowing out anything visible, you're wasting material.

 

[lwien]

if you are vaporizing, and you're blowing out anything visible, you're wasting material.

I'm not convinced of that. What you may be blowing out may have very little if any actives in it.

I've gotten high off of a fresh bowl with very little cloud production and have hardly gotten high at all on a fairly used up bowl with huge clouds. Anecdotal evidence for sure but I think we need to see more studies on this before you can make a statement like that.

 

[stickstones]

if you are vaporizing, and you're blowing out anything visible, you're wasting material.

Why?

 

[Grim Chiclets]

I like to chase clouds personally, but only because I like to see a tiny bit before I re-breathe it- as I'm pretty sure a fair few others here do
Also for some reason the feeling of your lungs being stuffed with those tasty clouds is great, my favorite part

 

[grokit]

if you are vaporizing, and you're blowing out anything visible, you're wasting material.

Second-hand vapor is like second-hand smoke, less actives and more harmfuls.
A great analogy is second-hand food, which is literally crap!

 

[psychonaut]

Clouds have misled me before. Some of the best I've ever had produced about half the visible vapor I'm used to seeing, but the effects were huge (king kush).

As to waste, it's so cheap for me to medicate I don't even worry about it. I think I'm around 3ish dollars a day, thanks to shatter ecig juice and the crafty.