Ammonia during vaporizing

[matious]

Hey guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Anyhow, I'll keep this short and straight to the point.

" However, a recent study has shown that vaporizing marijuana can lead to toxic levels of ammonia in the vapor. Ammonia can cause lung irritation, nervous system effects and asthma attacks. As there are many different types and models of vaporizers available, more research is needed to measure the chemicals produced by vaporizing marijuana and marijuana extracts."

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/M_RM_Marijuana-and-Methods-of-Use-FAQs.pdf

Thoughts? I've had my SSV for months now with no ill effects, but I wanted to see what the community here had to say.

 

[KeroZen]

Welcome on board!

Please read this thread: http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporization-health-research-real-facts.1597/ the ammonia keyword shows up several times.

 

[matious]

Yes, I've read that thread. I was wondering if any more developments have taken place in the four years since. Sorry to bother, does this community prefer bumping of old threads as oppose to new ones? I still have some questions I hope to get answered.

 

[KeroZen]

AFAIK I never saw anyone here complain when someone brought back dead threads to life...

I'm not aware of any new development regarding that particular topic though. Maybe someone else will chime in?

 

[max]

toxic levels of ammonia in the vapor

Must be true, since a "study" said so. Here's an interesting factoid about scientific studies, which over the years have been manipulated by drug companies and other industrial heavyweights for their own benefit-

In 2005, Dr. John Ioannidis, an epidemiologist at Ioannina School of Medicine in Greece, showed that there is less than a 50 percent chance that the results of any randomly chosen scientific paper will be true.

I'm not saying this toxic ammonia paper has been doctored for a specific result, just saying don't believe everything you read just because it looks scientific and may include initials like MD, PHD, etc.

My personal study of vaporization includes a childhood history of asthmatic bronchitis, which remains firmly and completely in my preteen years, and many years of cigarette and mj smoking. Cig smoking ceased 18 years ago, and mj smoking was ended almost 10 years ago after my tolerance for smoke of any kind was at an end. Daily vaporizing since then, apparently with tons of toxic ammonia included, has resulted in a person (with the help of good nutrition choices and exercise) much healthier than 20-30 years ago. Pardon me for trusting my own experience over a study by colorado.gov.

Other studies/testing on vaporization have shown toxic compounds like carbon monoxide, benzene, and toluene present at higher temps. Any of these chemical compounds can kill at high enough levels, but even at the higher levels present in smoke, they're not toxic enough to even cause illness, let alone death. Nor do they accumulate in the body over time like heavy metals do. The human body also has a specific mechanism to prevent build-up of ammonia, and I suspect (at least from my 'one person study') that the levels of ammonia produced by vaporization are easily handled by this process.

Everyone's body chemistry is different and there can be differing effects to various chemical compounds (something big pharma doesn't want you to know). A small number of people aren't going to do well with inhaling mj in any form, for whatever reasons, but if you're going to heat and inhale, a ton of people have proven, with real world testing, that vaporization is the safest method, vs. smoking. Personally, I have little to no concern over any amounts of ammonia I may be getting with vapor, while my heart and lungs are clearly much healthier since I've stopped combusting.

 

[Dafni]

If you are worried about ammonia in your vapor, just use water filtration. Ammonia absorbs/dissolves very readily into water.

Hence, if you vape a lot through the same water, it's pH value should increase if there are significant amounts of ammonia in your vapor. I never checked, might be worth a try. I doubt there is much ammonia in vapor though. City pollution is probably much worse to breath.

 

[MichaelAB]

If you are worried about ammonia in your vapor, just use water filtration. Ammonia absorbs/dissolves very readily into water.

Hence, if you vape a lot through the same water, it's pH value should increase if there are significant amounts of ammonia in your vapor. I never checked, might be worth a try. I doubt there is much ammonia in vapor though. City pollution is probably much worse to breath.

Interesting experiment for the aquarium enthusiast (because serious fish keepers have this capability on hand, usually): an Ammonia test of the water before and after. It wouldn't be rock-solid results but if there's more than a 1-2 ppm increase it should show in a liquid test.

 

[matious]

\
In 2005, Dr. John Ioannidis, an epidemiologist at Ioannina School of Medicine in Greece, showed that there is less than a 50 percent chance that the results of any randomly chosen scientific paper will be true.

Kind-off ironic right?
Thank you to those who've commented.
Please, if anyone could entertain some more dumb questions, I'd really appreciate it.

Would e-cigs give off comparable amounts of ammonia since it's(taking a wild guess here) the same virtual process? Or is it simply a matter of dry herb? Would using oil decrease the presence?

For those that grow, is there anyway to tell if nitrogen fertilizer was used on the crop?

If you are worried about ammonia in your vapor, just use water filtration. Ammonia absorbs/dissolves very readily into water.

Great! This is the sort-off answer I was hoping for. Do you have a particular one in mind? I see a large price range and am not entirely sure how much to spend to get the desired effect.

 

[GrilledGoat]

I see a large price range and am not entirely sure how much to spend to get the desired effect.

If you are getting a water piece specifically to filter out ammonia, you would want the vapor to spend highest possible amount of time in contact with the water. I think that this piece: D020-D would serve the purpose well, as it can accommodate a decent amount of water and has lots of diffusion. Perhaps though a Frit or Honeycomb would work better for this purpose.

 

[matious]

Okay, I'm about to purchase one. Just to confirm, this isn't the same assumption as with bongs correct? As in, it doesn't actually "filter" all that much.

 

[Radio]

Must be true, since a "study" said so. Here's an interesting factoid about scientific studies, which over the years have been manipulated by drug companies and other industrial heavyweights for their own benefit-

In 2005, Dr. John Ioannidis, an epidemiologist at Ioannina School of Medicine in Greece, showed that there is less than a 50 percent chance that the results of any randomly chosen scientific paper will be true.

I'm not saying this toxic ammonia paper has been doctored for a specific result, just saying don't believe everything you read just because it looks scientific and may include initials like MD, PHD, etc.

My personal study of vaporization includes a childhood history of asthmatic bronchitis, which remains firmly and completely in my preteen years, and many years of cigarette and mj smoking. Cig smoking ceased 18 years ago, and mj smoking was ended almost 10 years ago after my tolerance for smoke of any kind was at an end. Daily vaporizing since then, apparently with tons of toxic ammonia included, has resulted in a person (with the help of good nutrition choices and exercise) much healthier than 20-30 years ago. Pardon me for trusting my own experience over a study by colorado.gov.

Other studies/testing on vaporization have shown toxic compounds like carbon monoxide, benzene, and toluene present at higher temps. Any of these chemical compounds can kill at high enough levels, but even at the higher levels present in smoke, they're not toxic enough to even cause illness, let alone death. Nor do they accumulate in the body over time like heavy metals do. The human body also has a specific mechanism to prevent build-up of ammonia, and I suspect (at least from my 'one person study') that the levels of ammonia produced by vaporization are easily handled by this process.

Everyone's body chemistry is different and there can be differing effects to various chemical compounds (something big pharma doesn't want you to know). A small number of people aren't going to do well with inhaling mj in any form, for whatever reasons, but if you're going to heat and inhale, a ton of people have proven, with real world testing, that vaporization is the safest method, vs. smoking. Personally, I have little to no concern over any amounts of ammonia I may be getting with vapor, while my heart and lungs are clearly much healthier since I've stopped combusting.

 

[MichaelAB]

I'm not a scientist. This wasn't done in a laboratory. And I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

A "fun" experiment using a reputable-brand aquarium test kit that was not expired, tap water filtered through a Brita pitcher (the filter is probably half-way through its life), and a few sessions with a MFLB and Louts through a MF Orbiter (50 hits or so). I used a Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) meter for fun, too.


A 1/4cup of water was used; 5ml from the 1/4c was taken for the tests. (Likewise for the post-vape test: 5ml was taken from the Orbiter after swirling the contents.) The ammonia test was done per manufacturer guidelines.

Post-Vape:
-The TDS more than doubled. No surprise.
-The ammonia reading went off the chart, over 8ppm.

Left: before vaping. Right: after vaping.



"For what it's worth."

 

[darkrom]

Interesting. What this early test concludes is that vaporizing with water seems safer than vaporizing dry?

Obviously this is just a simple test, but those results are pretty shocking to me!

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations MichaelAB,

..."fun" experiment...

Indeed, that's quite stimulating and it should be relatively easy to replicate on top of that!



It might also be fun to take measurements from a long-neck VaporGenie, mine for example:

FC: VaporGenie (2013-Aug-16)​

Then compare with my FogBong scenario.

One might even want to evaluate exhales composition, i wonder!

In any case is it possible water vapor provides relief to those with irritable lungs by interfering with this amonia?

 

[MichaelAB]

Thank you for the room - realizing that it is indeed just a simple experiment.

A test of the vapor before and after it gets to the lungs would be interesting, too.

If the water is retaining harmful levels of _____, then it seems that filtering through water may be a good thing. This is assuming that filtering through water isn't problematic to begin with (e.g. a few things I've read suggest that a proportionate amount of THC is also retained by water filtration, so users [smokers in the 'study' I read] had to intake more for desired effects anyway, therefore increasing the amount of nasties they were inhaling, essentially offsetting the water advantage).

I dunno. My degrees are in the Humanities. lol

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations MichaelAB,

If the water is retaining harmful levels of _____, then it seems that filtering through water may be a good thing.

In that case lets call it neutralization (generally speaking) and hence that would imply distilled water may actually be required to achieve the best possible results.

This is assuming that filtering through water isn't problematic to begin with...

Perhaps i need to show you this:

​

A cotton ball filters just fine using my pipe and it also felt appropriate while playing with other configurations...

I've done this for a long while so it seems to me particles simply remain trapped there: the stickier it gets the more particles it captures i guess. But then it becomes clogged and a times comes when a new cotton ball is required.

And i like that nice smell!...

...THC is also retained by water filtration...

If that's bad for THC then there should be little need to insist over preserving delicate aroma/taste features! So i found my filtered cannabic vapor may not even have to make contact with water, after all: i filtered it early anyway.

...therefore increasing the amount of nasties they were inhaling...

It sure sounds like a reasonable matter to address. Do the immediate benefits of water imply some sort of trade-off?

 

[GR]

Using distilled water is something I have been doing for a long time for filtering all things. Still understand that every bubble coming through the water is an air pocket and not being filtered.

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations GR,

Using distilled water is something I have been doing for a long time for filtering all things.

Since i've switched to the pipe i benefit from having a pocket-format self-moisturizing "Plan-B" solution which happens to be based on sterile over-heated "inlet" water vapor - that's basically steam i guess... Which is one method to produce distilled water.

...understand that every bubble coming through the water is an air pocket and not being filtered.

Well no doubt all this contact surface must have some great cooling effect. I'm just glad i can be done without it!

 

[matious]

Post-Vape:
-The TDS more than doubled. No surprise.
-The ammonia reading went off the chart, over 8ppm.

Left: before vaping. Right: after vaping.



"For what it's worth."

So, this kind-off confirms prior studies?
We can assume this wasn't with "street" cannabis. It was a high quality vaporizer. That eliminates two variables that were in the study.

 

[biohacker]

I'm not too sure what to think of all of this, but it does scare me a little. I get horrible night sweats that smell like strong ammonia, and i'm attributing it exclusively to excess vapour at this point. My usage isn't crazy high, but I vape every day, multiple times a day. I have read much on the topic, so it could be caused by a variety of things, but everything keeps pointing toward the vapour. This has been the first time in my life that I have to really weigh the pros/cons of this medicine, but surely it's my fault from abuse. I admit when it comes to many things in life I have the strongest willpower ever, but with this plant, my willpower completely crumbles and shatters apart. Mmmmm...shatter......

 

[darkrom]

I'd love to see this tested with concentrates. There is a good chance this issue isn't present with concentrates.

Maybe its time to reach out to a lab to investigate this more? MCRlabs likes doing cannabis research, they could be interested since this is a fairly simple to test thing.

 

[Dafni]

I'm not a scientist. This wasn't done in a laboratory. And I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

A "fun" experiment using a reputable-brand aquarium test kit that was not expired, tap water filtered through a Brita pitcher (the filter is probably half-way through its life), and a few sessions with a MFLB and Louts through a MF Orbiter (50 hits or so). I used a Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) meter for fun, too.


A 1/4cup of water was used; 5ml from the 1/4c was taken for the tests. (Likewise for the post-vape test: 5ml was taken from the Orbiter after swirling the contents.) The ammonia test was done per manufacturer guidelines.

Post-Vape:
-The TDS more than doubled. No surprise.
-The ammonia reading went off the chart, over 8ppm.

Left: before vaping. Right: after vaping.



"For what it's worth."

Nice, thanks for sharing.

Now you should dillute the water until you get into the range of your kit. You would get a number that way. Try 1 to 10 for starters and go from there

 

[grokit]

The human body also has a specific mechanism to prevent build-up of ammonia

I'm guessing that's our renal/urinary system, as urine is basically an ammonia solution.

 

[Seren]

..... Ammonia is a by-product of protein digestion. It is usually absorbed by the intestine and carried in the blood to the liver to be metabolised to urea - which is then excreted by the kidneys and our urinary tracts. Very high levels of ammonia, caused by the body's inability to metabolise or filter ammonia - either because of impaired kidney or liver function - can have detrimental effects on neurotransmitters and brain function if left untreated.

The concentration of ammonia in blood is also increased by alcohol, barbiturates, diuretics, valproic acid, narcotics and smoking. So it would seem, even if vaporising does produce increased ammonia levels in our blood - it is not alone in doing so........ and there's nothing to say our body doesn't cope with this increase as it would an increase in dietary protein.

I guess ideally research needs to look at how much ammonia is produced by vaporisation and map this against upper tolerance thresholds for healthy individuals and those with compromised liver and kidney functions. Only then will we know for sure if it's worth worrying about. As an ex-smoker - the switch to vaping for me has been nothing but positive. I feel much healthier, so my gut tells me this is not an issue. But of course that's just my opinion.

 

[grokit]

What I know about urine is that because of the ammonia it's a sterile medium; besides having waste products in it, it contains valuable, individually-customized antibodies that can cure external issues like athlete's foot and hemorrhoids (piss on your feet/wipe your bum with it)
Ot, but this is why the yogis and other traditional medicine types also use it systemically/internally.