Consider New Technology - Pyrolysis is sweet spot between vape and combustion

Perfect_Speed4069

I am the beetle in a box that only you can see
You should get your health and safety information from a qualified source, which does not include this forum.
Mate, this isn't going to end well. You've started a thread, asked for opinions and decided to take issue with the options of the folks who replied. This isn't Twitter or Reddit. We don't pick fights. There's also a whole bunch of back story on not discussing safety of materials. Genuinely, read up, consider, and then come back to this discussion. For now, digging in won't end well. Best of luck.
 
Mate, this isn't going to end well. You've started a thread, asked for opinions and decided to take issue with the options of the folks who replied. This isn't Twitter or Reddit. We don't pick fights. There's also a whole bunch of back story on not discussing safety of materials. Genuinely, read up, consider, and then come back to this discussion. For now, digging in won't end well. Best of luck.
Please stay on topic: pyrolysis

It was done when the Dr dabber switch came out in 2018 so 7 years ish ago.:tup:
Please point me to documentation of that so that the info can be forwarded to patent examiner.
 

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
I've seen "pyrolysis" claimed by a few new vape-makers here over the years that I've been into this vaporizing hobby, but it never seemed to amount to much. Also the sellers making the claim seem to always be very confrontational with anyone on here who questions their claims.

It's very odd every time.
 

Andreaerdna

If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
Nothing, except silver, can match copper's heat conductivity, and it it is totally safe as having been used in cookware for many many decades.

I have some copper cookware, but the food isn’t in contact with copper (copper is lined with other « safer » metals to avoid that, like Vapman) and while the copper outer part of the casserole is in contact with a blue flame, it rarely pass 100*C as there are many ways of dissipation (its huge radiating mass and the food inside, boiling and evaporating).
in your device copper should reach higher temps, so maybe it is not the same-same

I also use copper in the garden, to kill fungus and other micro organisms and protect my veggies, it is not safe to inhale that

again, different applications different risks…

also: pyrolisis or charring tastes really awful IMO
 
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potatobass

Well-Known Member
Hello! Just throwing my 2 cents here....
It's been 20years since I switched to vaporization, and I still consider that the main advantage is to be able to taste those delicious terpens in all their complexity. Never felt like I was wasting precious cannabinoids.
I kinda doubt any seasoned vaporist will sacrifice taste for more extraction , especially with todays vaporizers performances.
However, if this device work as described , it could be interesting for someone who want to quit combustion.

Just to say that you might be preaching the wrong crowd here since , IMHO, your target audience probably don't hang out here.

Anyway , best of luck with your product launch!!
Always good to see new approach.
 

General Disaster

Schrödinger's rat!
Please stay on topic: pyrolysis
Well, an interesting alternative take on vaping for sure.
Sadly, you're making some major league claims that you've not explained, or provided any references that you've used as resources to your thoughts (e.g. how do you know all the definitive claims you're basing this on?).

Some of the comments are not very scientific - e.g. "It takes a tremendous amount of energy to transform a liquid into a gas, and heated air is a poor means of transferring heat to the essential oil in the dried herb."
This doesn't really say anything about what's going on. You're talking about heat of vapourisation, but not describing it correctly, just saying something is enormous says little with nothing to compare against or quantify, and all vapes have to achieve this. It's not helping to understand what you're trying to say. And why is heated air a poor means of transferring heat (i.e. convection)? And with respect to what?

Also, how have you determined the amounts of terpenoids being extracted from the weed in normal vapes at a range of temps vs. your device, so as to provide empirical comparisons to show the advantages and quantify them? In addition, how are you measuring the output to compare between a normal vape and your device? I would imagine you'd need to be passing the vapour through a gas chromatograph to see the components and quantities. How can you tell whether only pyrolysis is taking place and no oxidation is occurring (see previous comment - chromatograph and/or spectrometry analysis probably required).

You ideas sound interesting, but the descriptions given are not convincing (which doesn't mean your thoughts don't have value, just that I can't assess that value without real data on how all your conclusions have been discovered and how accurate they may or may not be).

I could go through your OP bit by bit on specific parts but I don't think that would be especially engaging to read or helpful, frankly, and would just produce reams of boring text, so I just threw in some examples of why I find the post hard to be more enthusiastic about without more info on sources of information and how you've come to your conclusions. Just saying something without that appears to be an opinion more than anything.
 

seedy53

Well-Known Member
dr dabber og switch uses this method and many users i've had conversations with, say it does not do well for flower vaping. idk but this is something i found a bit shocking result to me. esp about the praise i read about this process on this thread.
 
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seedy53,
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Steady on. So far my questions have been nothing but respectful and open minded. If you consider them stupid or asinine, check yourself. Or maybe you got a thing for Flemish Poets. In which case, apologies
Asking if someone's project is a joke is not respectful. Lol.

Mate, this isn't going to end well. You've started a thread, asked for opinions and decided to take issue with the options of the folks who replied. This isn't Twitter or Reddit. We don't pick fights. There's also a whole bunch of back story on not discussing safety of materials. Genuinely, read up, consider, and then come back to this discussion. For now, digging in won't end well. Best of luck.

I don't really get what this person did wrong. They posted and everyone asked if they were a joke and laughed. A couple of people who didn't understand the post said the design wouldn't work because of a point addressed in the original post. Why so hostile and then acting like there was no reason a newcomer would be upset by all the mocking? It's weird and off putting.

I've been lurking here for years and I don't usually see this kind of nasty shit on here. I'm surprised. It makes me, and trust me, any other people that might have things to share in the future, not want to come here to share them. Why would they want to?

If that's what you want, cool. If posters on this thread want new blood to come here and people of good faith to be welcome and become part of the community, you should show humility and kindness in this special place that is important for people's health. Or things won't go well for the website. Mate. And fewer people, not more, will vape. And that's the opposite of the point, right?
 

General Disaster

Schrödinger's rat!
Asking if someone's project is a joke is not respectful. Lol.



I don't really get what this person did wrong. They posted and everyone asked if they were a joke and laughed. A couple of people who didn't understand the post said the design wouldn't work because of a point addressed in the original post. Why so hostile and then acting like there was no reason a newcomer would be upset by all the mocking? It's weird and off putting.

I've been lurking here for years and I don't usually see this kind of nasty shit on here. I'm surprised. It makes me, and trust me, any other people that might have things to share in the future, not want to come here to share them. Why would they want to?

If that's what you want, cool. If posters on this thread want new blood to come here and people of good faith to be welcome and become part of the community, you should show humility and kindness in this special place that is important for people's health. Or things won't go well for the website. Mate. And fewer people, not more, will vape. And that's the opposite of the point, right?
Are you saying all the comments are unreasonably hostile or just some? And which one's (unless you're claiming all are BS?). If it's only some posts you object to, then you're tarring all with the same brush, which hardly seems fair either - maybe be specific about what claims you think are wrong and/or abusive, because they are two different things, and without being specific, who knows which one's you're complaining about?

As for the joke thing, did you not notice the date of posting? Surely you can see why many would question it? Especially with the science being questionable? I don't believe there's anything established as showing the major but unsupported claims made for pyrolysis in the OP, and I questioned some of this but got not reply - that doesn't help in making a good case for the OP. Neither is your non-specific indignation.

If someone willingly posts an idea for others to comment on, to be outraged that not everyone may agree on the OP's idea's defeats the whole point of posting in the first place (at least if an honest and open opinion is sought after)? Maybe what you're posting will put people off giving honest opinions because they aren't popular, regardless of accuracy? Why would they want to? You've just made a personal judgement on others yourself, but not had the courtesy of saying exactly what or whom you're arguing against.
 

Ramahs

Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
bitcoin cryptocurrency GIF
 
Ramahs,

Perfect_Speed4069

I am the beetle in a box that only you can see
Asking if someone's project is a joke is not respectful.
An apology costs nothing and I'm happy to apologise if I've caused offence to anyone anywhere for anything. I've no beef with anyone, except for those who make assumptions/don't ask questions and /or assert their opinion as fact.
 

Cheebsy

Fermentation Fiend
I've been lurking here for years and I don't usually see this kind of nasty shit on here.
Yet you choose to argue this subject and for it to be your first post? Hah! Welcome to the forum, we don't like trolls here!

The first post reads either as a trolling post (considering the audience) or April fools joke, commenters choose to be generous and assume joke. It could have been much uglier but that would have got shut down quickly by the mod team.
 

0796

Dangerous proposals - Treat with limited trust
extreme temperatures
Hey!
Could you explain, please, how pyrolysis will eliminate benzene, toluene and naphthalene?

According to NORML/MAPS article -

“The vaporizer produced THC at a temperature of 185° C. (365° F.) while completely eliminating three measured toxins – benzene, a known carcinogen, plus toluene and naphthalene.”

“Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200° C.”
 
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General Disaster

Schrödinger's rat!
I wouldn't take a great deal of stock from that article, certainly what was written in the link was not especially scientific, and in addition it's nearly 25 years old. I would question their whole experimental setup for starters, plus they say benzene started at 200℃ and attribute to combustion, but combustion they put at 230℃, so combustion isn't the only cause for toxic carcinogens. Lots of other dodgy points, it doesn't sound like it's based on a published scientific paper from a recognised journal.
Regardless, it's not pyrolysis anyway. Oxygen isn't excluded.
 
General Disaster,
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0796

Dangerous proposals - Treat with limited trust
I wouldn't take a great deal of stock from that article, certainly what was written in the link was not especially scientific, and in addition it's nearly 25 years old. I would question their whole experimental setup for starters, plus they say benzene started at 200℃ and attribute to combustion, but combustion they put at 230℃, so combustion isn't the only cause for toxic carcinogens. Lots of other dodgy points, it doesn't sound like it's based on a published scientific paper from a recognised journal.
Regardless, it's not pyrolysis anyway. Oxygen isn't excluded.
Full study on Researchgate:

Page 16:

8-BA4-F8-AF-A930-4-E5-D-B686-DFC1-EAAF3-DC3.jpg


For my unprofessional eyes it looks pretty scientific.

General chemistry note:
Chemical reaction that synthesis benzene not require oxygen.

About combustion temperature:
Combustion is not about cannabis fibre only with 232C.
Different compounds - different auto-ignition points.

PS:
S&B medical vaporisers limited for some reason on 180C.

Upd.
That’s funny. Just realised, that original poster last visit was at 2 April.
Very interesting, how I got into this story)))
 
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General Disaster

Schrödinger's rat!
For my unprofessional eyes it looks pretty scientific.
"The NORML-MAPS study tested a device called the M1 Volatizer, an aromatherapy vaporizer
developed by Alternative Delivery Systems, Inc. It consisted of an electric heating element in a chamber that radiates heat downwards over a sample of marijuana sitting in a standard pipe or “bong” bowl. Output from the vaporizer was analyzed and compared to smoke produced by combusting the sample with a flame."

No mention of experimental apparatus at all beyond a vape that was used as part of the setup but hardly the only important component, no mention of how temperature was measured, no mention of how the vapour was extracted from the vape and how it was analysed (GLC, MS, IR or UV spectroscopy,... etc) and gives no actual fractions (so THC was given off, how much? A microgram? A milligram? (etc etc)). Have you considered how they collect all the vapour? This is very important yet neglected here, in fact they imply the weed is open to the atmosphere talking about wisps of vapour coming off. Have they analysed what was actually in the weed sample and how much of each component (effects what's produced and how much). No mention of the gas used to pipe into the device to pressurise and force out the vapour into some capture apparatus such as a solid CO2 + ethanol cooled condenser.
I won't even mention those photos lacking both grey-scale and size scaling, pretty useless apart from showing very roughly what avb looks like (but saying nothing about the experiment) - oops! I gone an mentioned it, sorry!
All these things and more will effect the results - big time.

And worse...
"Although the study was not designed to detect the highly carcinogenic tars known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are thought to be a leading culprit in smoking-related cancers, there was good reason to believe that they were suppressed, since they normally form at much higher temperatures of combustion."

"Good reason..."? "Thought to be..."! That's about as unscientific as I could think of! And where are all the references to all the knowledge and facts they've assumed? Any real scientific paper published in a respectable journal will quote the papers from where all facts used by them came from (while also giving credit for using other peoples work), not just make an unsupported claim, the whole point is someone else has to be able to fully reproduce the whole experiment and get exactly the same results, without all the details that's impossible.

General chemistry note:
Chemical reaction that synthesis benzene not require oxygen.
That doesn't relate to my comment about their suggested cause of those cyclic aromatics as being from combustion, in fact the only thing I said about oxygen is that actual pyrolysis must exclude all oxygen - I even hinted the cause of the creation of those toxins could be other than combustion, but never said that required oxygen, it's the combustion that requires oxygen.

High temp dabbing will also produce those cyclic compounds and yet not a trace of combustible cellulose in sight!

You want some more?
"The vaporizer produced THC at a temperature of 185° C. (365° F.) while completely eliminating three measured toxins – benzene, a known carcinogen ..."

There's no elimination going on here at all, and if there was there should be all the details as to what's happening to those toxins that causing them to be eliminated - of course the real situation is that the terpenoids (the terpenes and cannabinoids) can be broken down themselves through excessive heat (no oxygen required) to form unstable 2 and 3 carbon chain molecules which as they cool down reform into many different compounds. The cyclics like benzene and other six membered rings are one of the more stable configurations and hence benzene tends to be the most common product (remember what I said about them specifying no fractions or percentages etc?).

I could probably bore everyone even more but if you can argue just those points above, then I'll admit I was wrong and be happy to have learnt something (if I am wrong).
Educate me?
 
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0796

Dangerous proposals - Treat with limited trust
"The NORML-MAPS study tested a device called the M1 Volatizer, an aromatherapy vaporizer
developed by Alternative Delivery Systems, Inc. It consisted of an electric heating element in a chamber that radiates heat downwards over a sample of marijuana sitting in a standard pipe or “bong” bowl. Output from the vaporizer was analyzed and compared to smoke produced by combusting the sample with a flame."

No mention of experimental apparatus at all beyond a vape that was used as part of the setup but hardly the only important component, no mention of how temperature was measured, no mention of how the vapour was extracted from the vape and how it was analysed (GLC, MS, IR or UV spectroscopy,... etc) and gives no actual fractions (so THC was given off, how much? A microgram? A milligram? (etc etc)). Have you considered how they collect all the vapour? This is very important yet neglected here, in fact they imply the weed is open to the atmosphere talking about wisps of vapour coming off. Have they analysed what was actually in the weed sample and how much of each component (effects what's produced and how much). No mention of the gas used to pipe into the device to pressurise and force out the vapour into some capture apparatus such as a solid CO2 + ethanol cooled condenser.
I won't even mention those photos lacking both grey-scale and size scaling, pretty useless apart from showing very roughly what avb looks like (but saying nothing about the experiment) - oops! I gone an mentioned it, sorry!
All these things and more will effect the results - big time.

And worse...
"Although the study was not designed to detect the highly carcinogenic tars known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are thought to be a leading culprit in smoking-related cancers, there was good reason to believe that they were suppressed, since they normally form at much higher temperatures of combustion."

"Good reason..."? "Thought to be..."! That's about as unscientific as I could think of! And where are all the references to all the knowledge and facts they've assumed? Any real scientific paper published in a respectable journal will quote the papers from where all facts used by them came from (while also giving credit for using other peoples work), not just make an unsupported claim, the whole point is someone else has to be able to fully reproduce the whole experiment and get exactly the same results, without all the details that's impossible.


That doesn't relate to my comment about their suggested cause of those cyclic aromatics as being from combustion, in fact the only thing I said about oxygen is that actual pyrolysis must exclude all oxygen - I even hinted the cause of the creation of those toxins could be other than combustion, but never said that required oxygen, it's the combustion that requires oxygen.

High temp dabbing will also produce those cyclic compounds and yet not a trace of combustible cellulose in sight!

You want some more?
"The vaporizer produced THC at a temperature of 185° C. (365° F.) while completely eliminating three measured toxins – benzene, a known carcinogen ..."

There's no elimination going on here at all, and if there was there should be all the details as to what's happening to those toxins that causing them to be eliminated - of course the real situation is that the terpenoids (the terpenes and cannabinoids) can be broken down themselves through excessive heat (no oxygen required) to form unstable 2 and 3 carbon chain molecules which as they cool down reform into many different compounds. The cyclics like benzene and other six membered rings are one of the more stable configurations and hence benzene tends to be the most common product (remember what I said about them specifying no fractions or percentages etc?).

I could probably bore everyone even more but if you can argue just those points above, then I'll admit I was wrong and be happy to have learnt something (if I am wrong).
Educate me?
You definitely have strong arguments in area, that I have zero expertise, just little bit common knowledge.

I will appreciate, if you can point me to a research, about “vaping temperatures/cannabis compounds toxicity”.
🙏
 
0796,
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