VapingYogi
Pranayama; of a sort.
Just another mega globe video for fun
The Tempest by Mad Heaters & Phatpiggie
- Thread starter oddjobold
- Start date
General Disaster
A Country Member
I would guess that generally speaking, the Wand puts out a specific amount of power, or energy/heat whatever you want to call it regardless of the make up (the amount and distribution of suitable metals) of the heater within the IH coil.
If the magnetic eddy currents from the IH's coil could reach past the outer steel sheath, that's there to take those currents and convert to heat through electrical resistance (as best I can work out), then even if those magnetic forces could partially pass through the steel (which makes me wonder where that excess would be going if balls were not metallic), it would just be distributing the same energy differently, but not adding more or less for the power and time the Wand is applied.
Very nicely filmed!
Is that a 500 or a litre?
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vappingallnight
Active Member
Ive been struggling to go through all 171 pages and find images of the Tempest while dirty. Do you guys mind posting some ugly shots of when the end is all dark from the torch?
Still trying to decide between Black or Raw Ti base color for the bowl.
Still trying to decide between Black or Raw Ti base color for the bowl.
General Disaster
A Country Member
Sorry, nothing set up to put images on, too much like work, I prefer to let my fingers rest on k/board and make like an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters, waiting for that msg to appear at random that makes sense (sorta)!
But FWIW on mine the steel sleeve with the two bands for directing the heating, has gone grey-ish but not black-ish, though I'd reckon this will have much to do with the type of torch and how it's used. Of note is that I found the top 1/2cm of the Ti part of the bowl (where it screws on) has slightly lost it's colouration (I chose the blue) from heating up. Nothing horrible, just noticeable. This maybe shows less on a raw Ti finish?
The top part of the head that houses the indicator and clicker has stayed the same polished finish. I was tempted by the black but availability and blue being second choice, I went for that.
But FWIW on mine the steel sleeve with the two bands for directing the heating, has gone grey-ish but not black-ish, though I'd reckon this will have much to do with the type of torch and how it's used. Of note is that I found the top 1/2cm of the Ti part of the bowl (where it screws on) has slightly lost it's colouration (I chose the blue) from heating up. Nothing horrible, just noticeable. This maybe shows less on a raw Ti finish?
The top part of the head that houses the indicator and clicker has stayed the same polished finish. I was tempted by the black but availability and blue being second choice, I went for that.
BreadStick
Well-Known Member
The eddy currents generated in the heater by the induction coil are AC signals. I'm not a big enough nerd yet to understand why but AC electricity likes to travel along the outside of the conductor it's travelling through, it's called the skin affect if you want to try understand it. This is why I'm guessing the non metallic balls are more efficient. From my understanding there's no excess energy being left behind not using metal balls, it just leaves all the magnetic field energy to be absorbed by the metal cylinder. If you added metal balls they'll start stealing the induction coil's energy but will have a worse specific heat capacity than Zirc or whatever other non-metallic media you might use so you might have less lag between the VI and actual vape temp but you're gonna have to re-heat way quicker.
General Disaster
A Country Member
Electricity is not a subject I've studied (so this isn't gospel!), but I think calling it a flow is incorrect, at least in the sense that we understand an electric current in a circuit. This also may make calling it AC (or even DC for that matter) also incorrect, as that implies current flow too.
To put it unscientifically I think it essentially has 'infinite' resistance, so (almost) all the electromagnetic energy is converted to heat, as it can't flow as current. You may be conflating the 'pulsing' current in the IH coil with generating AC, but it actually generates a changing magnetic field that's required for the induction to occur.
And it's not really clear (in the forum at least, it seems) that the changing electromagnetic fields can actually penetrate the outer steel sheath and penetrate into the matrix, regardless of what material is used for the balls. I'd guess you'd need to put some steel inside the balls container and remove the outer steel sheath to allow heat to be generated inside the matrix. Maybe a mix of steel bearings and some crystal material like AlO and ZnO etc. would work well?
Smknbud
Well-Known Member
Page 165 post #4112 by @HaggisHunter
TedJones
Well-Known Member
I’ve only used a torch. Mine from a couple months ago:
Ebony sleeve arrived! It’s a bit darker in color and lighter in weight than I expected. Awesome! What I really didn’t think too much about was the feel of it. Really smooth while spinning for up to a minute. Some added steadiness first twirl. Measuring only a couple mm smaller diameter than the metal shield though. Will use both
BreadStick
Well-Known Member
Yes you're right about my mistake referring to the eddy currents as an AC signal. I was thinking the the eddy currents as being one constant current source that was changing and not a bunch of small signals that exist for a tiny piece of time. Yes this is because I was thinking of the AC signal you give the induction coil to make an alternating magnetic field to induce the eddy currents. This also made me misunderstand the impact of the skin affect on induction heating.
Current still has to flow, if the resistance of the tempest head was near infinite we would be suggesting that steel is a really good insulator. The heat is generated by the current flow, the resistance of the tempest head acts like friction against this current flow which is what generates the heat. (This friction comparison is probably inaccurate but it helped me get through college lol)
Here's an article I found about the penetration depth of induction heaters & how induction heaters work in general. It looks like the higher the frequency your magnetic field changes at the thinner the penetration depth of the induction coil. Lower frequencies give deeper penetration depths but slower heating times. This is probably why the tempest wouldn't work in the wand with metal balls as the controller is programmed to switch the inductor at high frequencies.
TigoleBitties
Big and Bouncy
Thought I'd link this thread here since it's discussing a very similar topic.
BreadStick
Well-Known Member
Thank you should probably move my responses there as this is probably off the topic of the tempest? My bad if so!
TigoleBitties
Big and Bouncy
No worries, not trying to police the thread, just thought it was related.
oh shit, thanks i'll give that a go
cybrguy
Putin is a War Criminal
@HaggisHunter has about the most discolored Tempest head I have seen. Here is a link to his post... https://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-tempest-by-mad-heaters-phatpiggie.54063/page-165#post-1779772 He has it on revolves in this post.
I see @Smknbud already mentioned this above. Sorry to be redundent...
what newsletter? i don't remember seeing anything about a newsletter when i bought mine.
General Disaster
A Country Member
I disagree about the 'infinite' resistance suggesting current still has to flow, think about it, where is it going to flow to? The current creates constantly changing magnetic field, that field when it interacts with a suitable conductive material (e.g. steel, copper), it tries to create a current, but in the case of something like a tempest, there's no conducting circuit around which a current could flow. Maybe imagine it as water flowing through pipes? Like central heating, you need a complete circuit for the pump (the magnetic induction) to force the water (current) round the system.
Because the sleeve is going to have the same potential difference induced by the magnetic field at all points in it's surface, there's no flow. Flow must go from uphill (higher voltage (potential)) downhill (to a lower voltage), and it's a resistance across the circuit that creates that voltage drop (V=IR).
I'm pretty sure I'm drastically simplifying it (eddy currents alone are pretty complex I think), but I believe the principal holds (maybe someone here with a degree or whatever in electrical engineering or similar can say?). If you look at a transformer, you'll see the side where the magnetic fields induct a current, it requires insulated windings of (usually copper) wire, leading to some sort of circuit with a load of some sort, to be able to have that current flow. If you wrapped insulated wire round the sleeve on the pest, and connected to a load in circuit (a bulb say), then you would get some current flow and the bulb would light (assuming it could run on the amount of current).
HaggisHunter
Well-Known Member
Took that just now.
I'll avoid grossing you out too much but I have a bit of hyperhidrosis in my hands so they sweat a little more than most folks do...
Thanfully it's just in my hands, and not as bad as some people get it.
Basically means it's near impossible for me to keep this stuff nice given what the metalware is subject to, isn't the fault of the metal, seen it on loads of other things too. The metal does clean up fine, but it's a losing battle for me so I don't stress about it.
BreadStick
Well-Known Member
I had actually been writing my earlier replies from my day job as a graduate electrical engineer
I'll admit I only work in harness design & PLC programming for 12V DC systems but I found your comments interesting so I had a go answering! I was far from the best student so I make mistakes as per my initial response and there's probably more in my 2nd and even more in this one!I find eddy currents really confusing, I remembered what I had to know for college and forgot it straight after the exam. However the eddy currents are electrical currents that flow in the body of the affected metal, they form little circuits perpendicular to the magnetic field passing through them.
You're assuming the magnetic field has a constant magnetic flux at every point that interacts with the tempest which I'm pretty sure would be incorrect as the strongest field lines would be those closest to the coil and they would get weaker as you move out. The AC signal powering the coil also induces a changing magnetic field. This might be where the different potential differences that allow current flow would come from?
You're analogies comparing electricity to water and the uphill and downhill slop for potential difference has given me flashbacks to the 1st and 2nd year of my degree!
General Disaster
A Country Member
Phew! This ain't so easy without graphics!I had actually been writing my earlier replies from my day job as a graduate electrical engineer
I find eddy currents really confusing, I remembered what I had to know for college and forgot it straight after the exam. However the eddy currents are electrical currents that flow in the body of the affected metal, they form little circuits perpendicular to the magnetic field passing through them.
You're assuming the magnetic field has a constant magnetic flux at every point that interacts with the tempest which I'm pretty sure would be incorrect as the strongest field lines would be those closest to the coil and they would get weaker as you move out. The AC signal powering the coil also induces a changing magnetic field. This might be where the different potential differences that allow current flow would come from?
You're analogies comparing electricity to water and the uphill and downhill slop for potential difference has given me flashbacks to the 1st and 2nd year of my degree!
Ok, first off, I tend to focus on what's wrong and point that out (while trying to say why), so if I come across a bit shitty or arrogant or nitpicking whatever, that's just my poor comms! My brain tends to home in on logic breaks, so I sound really critical but it's not personal.
So first, the flux. For induction to work, you need a constantly changing flux, so it's never constant, it can be averaged, but only over the course of a full cycle (one full sin wave - I'd guess it's a sin or close). In something like a transformer - it's well worth googling and looking at the diagram as that may make my comments above make more sense - you'll see what I meant about needing a coil leading to some sort of circuit at the 'receiving' end to get an actual current flowing. The lack of current is why you get heat, you're putting energy into it, if it can't come out as a current, it has to come out in some other form, and that's where the heat comes from!
The actual effects of the eddy currents is I think very complex, especially when you consider the interactions of those in the metallic 'receiver', because I'd bet you're starting to have to take quantum mechanics into consideration, and best not to go there without a VERY large vape first!!!
The eddy currents are I believe still an electromagnetic force, but interacting with the metal's electrons. If those electrons could flow somewhere, then they'd be called current, but because they have nowhere to flow, no wire down which to travel, do something, and return, then their energy is dissipated as heat. I'm sorry I can't explain it better. I'm self taught (I think they called it "educationally subnormal" back in my day), can't do maths to save my life beyond basic stuff, but I'm pretty strongly sure I'm about right in essence.
It may be that the eddy currents have the properties of both magnetic fields and electric currents (quantum effects seem to like being more than one thing at a time!
). But if that's so, I would very much expect the electric aspect only has a very short life before it's changed into heat being unable to flow anywhere. And then when I want to heat my brain up by 10 or 20 degree's, I start to try and work out how the hell the electromagnetic field can also be expressed as photons when it interacts with something else, since light is electromagnetic radiation! What the phuque's going on down there at the bottom of the pit! 
But in the end, we can ignore exactly how the magnetic field transfers energy to the metal, just the fact it gets hot tells us that energy is not being expressed as electricity - in fact under the right conditions it can be partially expressed as light too! (the bugger glows white hot given enough juice from the IH). I'm willing to bet if you do the maths - power out of the IH, compared to the power expressed by the heat, and I reckon you'll find them very close (allowing for 'leakage' of energy into the environment etc.). Not an explanation, more of a demonstration, or (to be contentious) a 'proof' - if the electrical energy in is roughly equal to that coming out as heat, there's nothing left to create a current.
(Oh, in the interests of disclosure, I've worked in organic and physical chemistry for about 12 years (hence know a bit about some aspects of this from the phys chem, but not the formal teaching and maths etc), worked in IT applied to lab work and instrumentation, and last few decades IT only, mostly coding and low level bollocks (and I still keep double-posting here! So much for being a so-called expert! Sheesh, what a life!
))P.S.
I finally gave in and tried googling eddy currents (fear of finding I'd been completely wrong above!).
I think you were closer than I in saying they are electrical currents, but I was sort of right-ish, in that if they don't become a flowing current, but rather, if no circuit to flow round, they generate heat and I think it's because the lack of a circuit has the same effect of 'infinite' resistance, and the higher a resistance the hotter the conductor gets with flow of current.
Correction! See underlined bit just above: "...with potential difference"! Not current flow, but voltage! Because if an infinite resistance is possible (a break in the circuit - i.e. no circuit) then no current can flow, it's the potential difference that allows the energy to flow in the first place, as heat has to flow too, it just doesn't need a circuit to do so, but it does need that potential difference, expressed in degrees instead of volts, but in reality the same thing, as all forms of energy are the same in that sense, a difference between high and low, but we measure them in different ways depending on their nature (wavelength, amplitude...).
Sorry, that just occurred to me!
Wow! Crusty! I'm impressed! I tried so hard to get that effect! (the smell of burnt hair was awful!
Took that just now.
I'll avoid grossing you out too much but I have a bit of hyperhidrosis in my hands so they sweat a little more than most folks do...
Thanfully it's just in my hands, and not as bad as some people get it.
Basically means it's near impossible for me to keep this stuff nice given what the metalware is subject to, isn't the fault of the metal, seen it on loads of other things too. The metal does clean up fine, but it's a losing battle for me so I don't stress about it.
)At least the biologicals get sterilised each time!
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Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Curious if anyone knows off hand, since the new TA was announced, with four different variations, I was wondering where the tempest might fit in to compare? I know it is technically the TA slim, so that already answers a key difference between them... However my main questions are: does it hold the same number of balls, more or less, compared to the new heaters holding around 55 or 70 comparatively? and does it have the same type of airflow adjustment in the heater itself?? or was the air flow adjustment in the tempest primarily coming from the revolve or whatever the stem is called??? (planning to grab a tempest eventually, however I have the ability to upgrade to the new TA since I have the OG olivewood WPA model, so I am trying to decide which heater to get, thinking the first model that does not feature any adjustment and simply has wide open airflow, since I have the OG with limited non adjustable airflow, and could then have adjustable airflow in my TA slim when I eventually buy myself a tempest?!) 
BushRanger
Hit It & Quit It
Oooh yes, I see lol. Being new to torches, I saw quad flame as wide/large so was heating with tip of whole flame...hardly to see in daylight and even breathing close moves it lol. Also, misunderstood the 1cm recommendation in manual...
Now trying to heat 1cm away from blue cones, just so the sleeve length is almost all covered in flame during heating, I'm getting MUCH BETTER results than ever. Faster heating time, with more pulls needed to clear full bowl. Vapour just keeps coming and coming. Feels like 1st day all over again
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cybrguy
Putin is a War Criminal
The tempests head has its own air flow adjustment. You grab the steel portion of the head, squeeze it and turn it adjusting 4 slits that control air coming into the head. There is also an adjustment in the stem, like the revolve. Someone took a video of the head adjustment that should be above somewhere. I'll see if I can find it and add it to this post, if I do...
Here ya go. This is from @VapingYogi 's post on a previous page...
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General Disaster
A Country Member
Ok, Gandalf, stop that! You may think it's magic, but I have ta tell ya ..., look not into the vapour, for the vapour looks into you!
I only picked up on that for the same reason. I'm pretty new to the game, and this puzzled me a bit, but on watching enough vids it seemed that most people roughly judged from that bright blue cone, and in the end, I too couldn't see the real end of the flame well enough. Plus, when you try it you soon see the difference in heat transfer, much quicker, at least with a three jet, not tried any other.Oooh yes, I see lol. Being new to torches, I saw quad flame as wide/large so was heating with tip of whole flame...hardly to see in daylight and even breathing close moves it lol. Also, misunderstood the 1cm recommendation in manual...
Now trying to heat 1cm away from blue cones, just so the sleeve length is almost all covered in flame during heating, I'm getting MUCH BETTER results than ever. Faster heating time, with more pulls needed to clear full bowl. Vapour just keeps coming and coming. Feels like 1st day all over again
But it's a great device - starts good, then just gets better and better as you suss it out!
The Tempest (release I think) uses 90 x 2.5mm balls. As well as the head vents as @cybrguy showed, it also uses a slightly modified Revolve G2 stem, with a lot of adjustment for airflow and cooling (as well as the head vents). It's an impressive stem!Curious if anyone knows off hand, since the new TA was announced, with four different variations, I was wondering where the tempest might fit in to compare? I know it is technically the TA slim, so that already answers a key difference between them... However my main questions are: does it hold the same number of balls, more or less, compared to the new heaters holding around 55 or 70 comparatively? and does it have the same type of airflow adjustment in the heater itself?? or was the air flow adjustment in the tempest primarily coming from the revolve or whatever the stem is called??? (planning to grab a tempest eventually, however I have the ability to upgrade to the new TA since I have the OG olivewood WPA model, so I am trying to decide which heater to get, thinking the first model that does not feature any adjustment and simply has wide open airflow, since I have the OG with limited non adjustable airflow, and could then have adjustable airflow in my TA slim when I eventually buy myself a tempest?!)
As I mentioned elsewhere the TA1 has slightly lower airflow, so that's an advantage of the adjustables - not just the setting, but also a little higher if you like good airflow.
From a less technical view, while I've not tried the TA yet, I get the impression the Tempest is more sophisticated and refined (with that stem especially), while the TA is more of a brute, along the same lines, but you can get even more out of it (and the pest isn't weak exactly!), but you have to work more at learning it, no indicator and clicker to work from (for those experienced with an OG that's probably less a 'thing'). I think the TA will have more heat capacity and bowl capacity. I'll have to see if I'm right or not, but I figured they are different enough to both be worth having (especially as the TA is so very reasonably priced!) and will have their own personalities quite distinct but not better or worse than each other.
Sorry - that sounded a bit disingenuous. I didn't at all mean the Tempest was expensive in comparison, when considering the engineering and materials gone into it, and in particular the included stem. I think they are both excellent value, but being top end kit, are not peanuts. They ain't a Dynavap-M!
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TedJones
Well-Known Member
@Shit Snacks yea the head is pretty versatile as even minor adjustments to the cap’s airflow make a difference. Then you have the choice of ball size to add on that.
Little more like General mentioned (3 vs 2.5)
It can! There’s few options to send air back up towards the bowl, to join the air from the cap. Or traditional carb air to mouth, or closed off completely of course
vappingallnight
Active Member
No worries, I guess its possible for me to keep my stuff clean but I still dont. Thats why I was asking to see dirty shots. Crazy, does look like the color is changing at the end of the bowl although looks cool. Thank you this shot helps. Think I'll stick with my first plan of black.
Thank you. This was already a main reference image I was looking at. Also saved an image on computer of someones in all Ti with a dark tip.
Thank you for the link, made it easier to find.